| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Yes, Cindy, We do need to be careful not to interpret Paul as preaching bogus grace. He never did it. Luther never did it. Catholics have long said that he did so. But a careful understanding of Luther reveals that he is much closer to Paul than the Catholics are. And Paul is the very one who disassociated his teaching from that of the bogus gracers of his day, calling it slander. Indeed, he was so right, for that is exactly what it is -- slander not only of Paul, but of God also. For neither Paul nor Luther ever taught that the redeemed sinner may do just as he wishes. Paul even says, "We have an obligation -- but it is not to the sinful nature." Romans 8:12 NIV. Thanks for highlighting this crucially important point. Under real grace alone, Max | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
I absolutely agree that we can never, under any circumstances, look at our works or actions as evidence of our salvation. Our salvation is 100% a result of God's grace. Jesus' death and resurrection have saved usóall of us, even those who don't know it yet. I'm having trouble understanding why we can't absolutely embrace Christ's free gift and also recognize that our salvation changes us? Of course our spiritual rebirth does not get rid of our sinful flesh. Of course we will not reach perfection in this lifeóeither by our own efforts or by Christ performing perfect deeds through us. Of course we will have our sinful flesh to deal with until we die or are translated (dare I say raptured?óthat word simply means what we Adventists meant by translated!) Patti is rightóour salvation does not result in our perfection. But Max is also rightóour salvation results in a changed life! Our changed life is not a qualification of our salvationóit's simply inevitable when the Holy Spirit is in us. And yes, God does see as as righteous. He looks at our sinful flesh and he sees Christ's righteousness. He became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of Christ. And yes, we do have a new identity IN CHRIST when we accept him. We become "saints", not "sinners" in God's eyes. Our new identity is completely an act of grace. But it is real, and it does not negate the sinful flesh we still have. (Another paradox!) As saints living in sinful flesh, our flesh will sin, but the Holy Spirit will give us a living soul that will be connected to God and will increasingly change our tastes and desires to more and more reflect God. Those changes will be entirely the work of the Holy Spirit in us, but we will be different because of them. And His spirit will give life to our mortal bodies. That means that in spite of our ever-present sinful nature urging us toward sin, the Holy Spirit will change our hearts and minds to become more and more like him. Obedience is a word I hated for a long time. I cringed whenever I heard it in church after we joined Trinity. But one of Elizabeth Inrig's famous one-liners helped to clear it up for me. Obedience, she says, is doing God's will; it's not the same thing as adhering to the law. As born-again Christ-followers saved by grace we are expected to be obedient. But that obedience does not mean we begin to crank out good works and obey a check list. That obedience means we respond to the Holy Spirit and make decisions based on love. The more we trust Him and recognize His voice in our hearts, the more our actions and decisions will mirror Him. Yes, we are saved entirely and purely by grace alone. Yes, when we have a living spirit/soul, we will be different people. No, our difference will not be a checklist for us to determine the quality or existence of our salvation. Yes, our changed hearts will be evident to others. Our attitudes and decisions and consequently many of our deeds or actions will change and increasingly reflect the love of God. Praising God for grace and the new heart He gives, Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Colleen, You hit it several times on the head: "I'm having trouble understanding why we can't absolutely embrace Christ's free gift and also recognize that our salvation changes us?" This is what George is screaming so loud about!!! Again you said: "Patti is rightóour salvation does not result in our perfection. But Max is also rightóour salvation results in a changed life! Our changed life is not a qualification of our salvationóit's simply inevitable when the Holy Spirit is in us." Again George is just jumping up and down over this. Go back, all of you, and read his post! Look at his June 20 at 9:19am in the, Thoughts on Faith thread. Here is just one excerpt: "Almost any time there is this much disagreement about something and both sides seem to be right or at least have SOME things right, it is because they are disagreeing about two different things. With each side being "right" it is impossible for either to move to the center where there can be agrement. If you are right you can't move." Sheeese, some of the things he has come up with really do have merit! Maryann | ||
| Cindy |
Colleen, thank-you! your post was beautiful!! I agree that the free gift of salvation, really trusting in Christ alone, brings changes in our attitudes and lives. And obedience equals belief to me.(See Hebrews 3&4). Obedience to the will of God (to believe in the one He sent) and not to a code of law is a desire of mine. I want to know more of Christ and have His Presence always. Obedience is now a good word to me, also. I'm sure that is evidence of the Holy Spirit's work in me to even realize this. Trusting in Him, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Maryann, I knew George was right all along. I am not wrestling against flesh and blood, but against a possible false and destructive perception of God. But the reason I personally know that grace changes lives, is because it changed my life. I KNOW! God love and bless you and George, Max | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, In the light of what you said: "But the reason I personally know that grace changes lives, is because it changed my life. I KNOW!" I expected to get crucified by my post in the "SDA 'Facts' that cannot be found in Scripture" thread: "Grace DOES change lives! And it's not a SIN to recognize it in our own, your own and my own life. ;-) It's kinda like, "Oh Happy Day". The Bible doesn't say, "by their fruits ye shall know them", just to use up ink! It is there for witnessing as well as our own encouragement! I think so many fall into the age old trap that it is a sin to recognize that our own lives have changed. What is the Bible all about!!!! WDYT?" To me, this is not a matter of pride, it is a matter of grace? Comments please.........Maryann | ||
| Max |
Agreed, Maryann, If I couldn't recognize the fruits of the Spirit in my own life by now I'd chuck the whole thing. I also believe that Christ's statement that the kingdom of God/heaven is within/among us witnesses to yet another fruit of the Spirit. Failure to recognize that statement of Christ's is a primary reason why SDAs are only Sadventists: They deny the fruits of the Spirit everywhere present in Christianity. So they have to wait for the kingdom of God/heaven while they deny it is under our feet as well as over our heads. A branch on the Grapevine, Max | ||
| Pat Darnell |
I have in my files the "sin boldly" quote from Luther, but alas! my husband has moved a lot of my files. HOWEVER: Max, if you are NOT going to do what you want to do, what are you going to do? I am serious. How are you going to choose what to do, and do it perfectly acceptably to God? If you are "recognizing the fruits of the Spirit" in your own life, you are looking at yourself, yes? And aren't we told to run our race "looking unto Jesus?" I submit that, Yes, under grace, we may do anything we please. HOWEVER, when we are at the foot of the cross, "looking unto Jesus" , rather than our own puny improvements, our "want tos" begin to change. This is not a change for which we can take credit; in fact, I don't think the person "looking unto Jesus" will ever see his changes as important. Grace "is not of works, lest any man should boast." and boy! Would we ever boast! No, as Luther (again) says, "Therefore we do not mingle the law and grace, faith and works together; but we separate them far asunder. And this distinction between law and grace, let every Christian mark diligently..." As former works-oriented people, we must constantly and consistenly keep in mind that JESUS PAID IT ALL. Period. The righteous live by faith in the Son of God Who loved us and gave Himself for us. I got a little book from The Berean Call the other day. I like this statement in regard to what Christ's death accomplished: "the payment of the full penalty for our sins - any attempt by us to pay IN ANY WAY rejects the Cross." I've been thinking about it ever since I read it.... Pat | ||
| Lydell |
Maryann, I liked what you had to say. The fruits are there. They aren't of our own making. But we should certainly celebrate when we see that the Lord is making the changes in us. And it is when we tell of what He has done in our lives that others are drawn to see that they too can turn to Him and receive help. We have a guy in our church who has a ministry to drug and alcohol addicts. The reason he is so effective is that he is God's visual aid of what happens when the Holy Spirit takes over a life. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Lydell, Having been raised that we are NOT to have pride in ourselves for any reason, I think that this is a very important "lie" to toss out the window. Here, like with "works", "faith", etc, there can be more than one definition used to define "pride". I broached this subject somewhere on this forum a month or so ago, maybe in "God works in mysterious ways" thread and it flew like a lead brick! :-(( Anyway, from my observation, it sure seems that the hard line of: "though shalt NOT have any pride", is actually, after peeling away all the sanctimonious "stuff", PRIDE IN ONE'S PRIDE! My being able to witness to the guyz at work in that I don't have a "sailer mouth" any more is a real point of "pride" that the Holy Spirit took that away from me! Pride to God's glory. And there are a few other things that have been extracted! An ex-drug addict that has a ministry to druggies can with, God's blessing say, "LOOK AT ME, I used to have a $1000 a day habit, and the Lord released me from it's and the devil's hold! Well, I just put on my flack jacket, couse I know I'm going to get it on this one! Happy shooting ;-)))))) Ducking, ouch, ohhhhhhhh.......Maryann | ||
| Lydell |
Maryann, I believe that was likely why David in the Psalms can exult in His maker, don't you? As you noted, the difference is that we are proud of what the Lord has done rather than being proud of what we have done. WE messed it up. HE fixed it. | ||
| Max |
Hi Pat, Yes, I'm familiar with Luther's famous "sin boldly" quote. It's always being taken out of context by Catholics who to this day are trying to prove that Luther did not believe that God's grace changes lives for good. But thanks to the sovereignty of God, no was has really been able to make the charge stick that Luther believed and taught that the redeemed sinner can do just as he pleases. Praising God for that, Max | ||
| Max |
Hi Pat, You wrote, ^^ Max, if you are NOT going to do what you want to do, what are you going to do? I am serious. ^^ The reference about not doing what I want to do comes from Romans 7:15 NIV -- "What I want to do I do not do...." Correct? Many people take Romans 7 -- which explains Paul's current unspirituality (v 14), his sinful nature (v 18), the "evil I do not want to do [that] I keep on doing (v 19), etc. -- out of context. To understand Romans 7 in context, we must take it as a challenge which is answered in Romans 8. Romans 8:1-2 summarizes Paul's answer to his own challenge of Romans 7. "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Paul then devotes the balance of chapter 8 to explaining how we Christians have been set free. The key to this comes in verses 12-14 NIV: ^^ Therefore, brothers, we have an OBLIGATION -- but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you PUT TO DEATH the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." Your question: ^^ What are you going to do? ^^ My answer: I am going to fulfill my OBLIGATION and PUT TO DEATH the misdeeds of my body and LIVE because I am led by the Spirit and am a son of God. More in answer to your post later. Blessings to you Pat, Max | ||
| Max |
Pat again, You wrote, ^^ How are you going to choose what to do, and do it perfectly acceptably to God? ^^ The question is, How? The question is based on concerns expressed in Romans 7. The answer is in Romans 8:6-11 NIV: ^^ The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature CANNOT please God. You [the Roman Christians and I, Max], however, are controlled NOT by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does NOT have the Spirit of Christ, he does NOT BELONG TO CHRIST. But if Christ IS in you, your BODY is dead because of sin, yet your SPIRIT IS ALIVE because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead WILL ALSO GIVE LIFE TO YOUR MORTAL BODIES throug his Spirit, who LIVES IN YOU." And that is how I am going to choose, and with what power, because God's real and pure grace has set me free from the law of sin and death (v 2). That was the long answer. The short answer is: Because the Spirit of God lives in me. Again, blessings, Pat, Max | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
I read a great passage by Oswald Chambers a few months ago in which he stated (in effect) that God teaches us and calls us and shows us what he wants us to do, but he won't force us to be disciplined people. God won't accomplish change in us if we refuse to respond to him. We are responsible for choosing to be disciplined people. I had never thought of that concept before, but it really makes sense. I have a perfectionistic streak that has, at repeated times in my life, nearly paralzyed me. I am so worried, sometimes, about doing something right that I can't get started. It seems overwhelming. I pray and ask God to help me, and he always doesóbut he doesn't pick up my hand and make me begin. I have to decided to begin. If I can trust that he'll help me accomplish whatever it is, I then have to act on that trust and BEGIN. If I don't begin, I'm being undisciplined and irresponsible. I can't expect God to do what he gives me to do. I can expect him to give me creativity and wisdom and insight and understanding and even organization/efficiency, but none of that happens if I don't discipline myself to actually start working. I believe this scenario is true all through our lives, including our walk with Christ. He won't make me spend time with him. He won't open the Bible and sit me down and then make me pray. He won't make me stop being angry or defensive; he won't make me write a note or make a phone call to someone who needs encouragement. He won't make me be loving. He does, though, continually prompt me to do these things. He makes his voice and wishes clear to me. Sometimes when I'm in the middle of a good snit I realize, "God wants me to give this to him." If I'm acting in trustóif I'm obedientóI'll ask hm to come into the situation and help me see it through his eyes. But I can choose not to respond to that impulse. God doesn't force us to do his will. But he makes us spiritually alive, and at every moment of crisis or decision, we can be aware of God's will and prompting. But we have to respond to it. God won't make us do his will. God will faithfully nurture and teach us and help us know his will. But, as Paul said, I have to die to myself daily. I have to be willing to discipline myself to respond to God. None of this disciplining is my own works or my own wishes. It's choosing to respond the the Holy Spirit. This response is not part of our salvation. It's AFTER our salvation. But it is part of the Christian life. Growing and learning, Colleen | ||
| Patti |
Again, Max, your words sound very similar to what our Roman Catholic friends affirm. This is the opening statement in a Catholic/reformed debate on Justification. If you don't mind, please tell me with what part of this you disgree: JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE? A Catholic Affirmation by Steve Clifford Are we justified by "Grace Alone" (sola gratia)? The Catholic answer is yes! "Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1996) (Ephesians 2:8) Are we justified by the merits of "Christ Alone" (solo Christo)? Again, the Catholic Church's answer is a resounding yes! "No one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification". (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 2010) "Salvation comes from God alone". (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 169) (Acts 4:12) Can we be justified by Faith Alone (sola fide)? Yes, Catholics can accept this statement, as long as it is properly understood! Surprised? No need to be. Once we define the terms it will become obvious why Catholics can accept the formula of sola fide when used in the proper context. Justification. The process by which a sinner is made righteous, pure and holy before God. "Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1992) (Romans 3:21-26) Faith formed by intellectual belief (fides informis). This type of faith is the acceptance of the word of another, trusting in that person's authority or right to be believed (See Romans 14). Even the demons have this type of faith. (James 2:19) Can we be made righteous before God merely by accepting the word of another (intellectual belief)? Absolutely not! What if the person that we accept as an authority tells us the wrong thing by deception? We have accepted and believed in his words but that does not necessarily make us righteous before God. This misunderstanding of justification apart from the Law was taken to the extreme by the Antinomians and was used against Paul by his opponents (Romans 3). Eventually it worked its way into many sects of Gnosticism and was soundly condemned by early Church Fathers such as St. Clement of Rome, St. Irenaeus, St. Hippolytus, and Tertullian. During the Reformation, Antinomianism was revived by some Protestants (the Anabaptists, for example), who adhered to the concept of "purification by faith." Both Martin Luther and the Council of Trent repudiated such a view. Antinomians surfaced yet again during the English Commonwealth (mid-1600s) and in New England. Faith formed by charity (fides formata). This type of faith is expressed in the three theological virtues of faith, hope and charity. (1 Corinthians 13:13) (See also Galatians 5). Faith is the unconditional belief in what God says. "Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us . . . because he is truth itself." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1814) Hope is unconditional trust in God. "Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ's promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1817) Charity is unconditional love for God. "Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1822) Can we be made righteous before God by faith formed by charity? Yes, we should have no problem accepting this definition as long as it is based on fides formata (faith formed by charity) and not fides informis (faith formed by intellectual belief). The reason most Catholics have difficulty with the Protestant idea of "Justification by Faith Alone" is because of way that the early Church decided to define faith. The Bible uses the term faith in a number of different ways. The Romans 14 sense of faith (formed by intellectual belief) is the most common way it is used in the New Testament. The New Testament regularly speaks of the faith, meaning a body of theological beliefs (e.g. Jude 3). The other use of faith (formed by charity) is seldom found in the New Testament. In fact, even in Galatians 5:6 itself, Paul has to specify that it is faith formed by charity that he is talking about, suggesting that this is not the normal use of the term in his day. Catholics think of "faith" as being only one of the three theological virtues that are necessary for salvation. Most Protestants think of saving faith as a faith based on the Bible, the Word of God, which can be trusted because God is incapable of making an error (equal to the Catholic theological virtues of faith plus hope). If a Protestant further specifies that saving faith is a faith which works by charity or love for God and one another, then the two positions become equivalents. The Protestant idea of faith is the same as the Catholic idea of faith, hope, and charity. Justification is derived neither from the works of the natural law, nor from the moral portion of the Law of Moses, but from faith, animated and upheld by patient endurance and good works. The good works may be done either directly for the honor and glory of God or indirectly by doing good to our neighbor, for God regards as done to Himself what is done to our neighbor (Isaiah 37:23; Jeremiah 1:19; Matthew 25:40; John 3:17 ff.). On the other hand, evil works, namely sin, displease God and deserve punishment (Genesis 3:11; 4:7; 6:3-6; 7:4; 9:6; 11:4-8; 17:14; 18:20; 19:11, 24-26; 20:3; 42:16; Exodus 3:9; 7; 12; 14; 20; 21; 22; 31:13-14; 32; Leviticus 11:44; Matthew 7:15-21; 23:3, 5, 12-37). Every man will be judged according to his good works done in imitation of Christ (Revelations 20:12). Thus, we as Catholics can agree with our separated Protestant brethren by saying that we believe in Justification by Faith (formed by charity) Alone! | ||
| Patti |
Another Catholic Affirmation Steve Clifford Our "good works" or "merits" are actually God's gifts or graces. Faith in Jesus Christ is not saving faith unless it bears fruit in good works. There are three stages of the justificational process; the preparatory stage, the transition from death to life, and the living of a Christian life. Catholics believe that true faith will express itself in a person's "works" - the way the person actually lives. God commands and expects His people to persevere in "good works," just as He expects them to persevere in faith. Not because it is our faith or works that save us, but simply because this is the way that God has ordained for each person to cooperate with His plan of salvation. The Council of Trent clearly stated that of the two (faith and works), faith was the primary means of accepting salvation ("the beginning of human salvation" from our perspective). "Good works" or charity is also important for salvation, but as a "fruit" of genuine faith. We do not have an infallible assurance of salvation. Like Paul tells the Philippians, we should be working out our own salvation "with fear and trembling". James is not talking about "faith and justification in the sight of men", but rather he is talking about "faith and justification in the sight of God". >Our faith and our works are wrought not by our own righteousness apart from Christ, but they are God's gifts of grace in us. Therefore, we are NOT justified by "Faith Alone", but rather we are justified by "Grace Alone". No one can merit the initial grace that is at the origin of conversion.<B> We respond to this initial grace through faith working in love (formed by charity). "Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted to us." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1991) "All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 2013) All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:48) Each of us must use our intellect and free will to respond to God's free gift of grace, striving always to live a life of faith working in love. Patti: WARNING: Not all that sounds good and pious and holy is truth. Everything must be evaluated by the single plumbline that is inerrant: Our salvation that has been secured by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. | ||
| Patti |
THE REFORMATIONAL GOSPEL: URL: http://www.presenttruthmag.com/archive/II/2-5.htm We present hereunder a four-point contrast of the basic differences between the Roman and Reformation doctrines of justification: Romanism 1. Justified by God's work of grace in a man. 2. Justified by faith that has become active by charity. 3. Justified by infused righteousness. 4. Justification means making a man righteous in his own person. Reformation 1. Justified by God's work of grace in Christ. 2. Justified by faith alone. 3. Justified by imputed righteousness. 4. Justification means that a man is accounted righteous. 1. Justified by God's Work of Grace in Christ. Christian doctrine has two poles: (1) "in Christ"; (2) "Christ in you." Or we can express it this way: 1. Christ's work for us. 2. Christ's work in us. In the matter of justification, we must never confuse these two aspects of redemption. By Number 1 we mean the doing and dying of Christ. Number 2 embraces the work that the Holy Spirit does in the believer's heart. The Reformers maintained the Pauline position that we are justified solely on account of Number 1-Christ's work for us. 2. Justified by Faith Alone. God's redemptive act for all men in the Person of Christ has already taken place at the cross. The empty tomb is the seal to Christ's perfect atonement for all sin. Humanity has already been justified in its great Head (objective justification). This means that in order to receive the blessing of justification (subjective justification), man has only to submit himself to God's verdict passed upon him in the Person of Christ. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Rom. 3:28. "By faith alone" (sola fide) became the slogan and war cry of the Reformation. And the Reformers meant that nothing else was required for justification save that a man believe in what God had done for him. In this context, they saw that faith was not an act which initiates a man's justification, but a becoming conscious of something already in existence. The papists were willing to concede that a man could be justified by faith if that faith were clothed with love. But since love is the fulfilling of the law, the Reformers recognized that the papal view was a veiled attempt to support righteousness by the fulfillment of law. Hence Protestantism insisted on sola fide, for they saw that love would be the fruit in man's experience of sanctification. According to Romans 5:1-5, love is the fruit of justification. 3. Justified by Imputed Righteousness. The Reformers merely re-emphasized the clear teaching of Paul, especially as set forth in Romans 4. In this chapter the words translated "accounted," "reckoned" and "imputed" all come from the same Greek word. "For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Verse 3. "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness." Verses 5, 6, 9. "... and [Abraham] being fully persuaded that, what He [God] had promised, He was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead." Verses 21-24. The word "impute" means that the righteousness by which we are justified is outside of us. Instead of being poured into us, as the Catholics teach, it is credited, or accounted, to the believer in Jesus. The Concise Oxford Dictionary gives both the Protestant and Catholic definitions of justification as follows: "justify . . . (Theol.) declare (person) free from penalty of sin on ground of Christ's righteousness or (Rom. Cath.) of the infusion of grace ..." The Council of Trent pronounced a curse on anyone who would teach that justification comes "through the imputation of Christ's righteousness alone." There is full assurance and freedom in the truth. Justification by righteousness wholly outside of us means that we do not have to look within our own hearts to see a certain amount of infused righteousness. Rather, we go to Christ just as we are, realizing that in our Substitute there is righteousness enough to give us favor and right standing with God. 4. Justification-Accounted and Declared Righteous. In the Latin the word "justify" means "to make righteous." And the Roman Church contended that "justification" means making a man righteous in his own person. The Catholic reasons, "How can God pronounce a man to be righteous in His sight unless he is actually righteous?" He therefore thinks that a man must be born again and transformed before he can have right standing with God. In this system of thought, a man can have no real assurance of justification, for he can never be sure whether the Holy Spirit has made him righteous enough to be accepted of God. In contrast, the Reformation theology says with Paul, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Rom. 4:5. God justifies sinners, and sinners of all sorts, not on the condition of any preceding righteousness, but on the condition that they believe with their whole heart what God has done for them, namely, that He has already reconciled and accepted them in the Substitute. The Reformers pointed out that the words "justify" and "justification" are legal and judicial words, closely related to the idea of trial and judgment (Deut. 25:1; 1 Kings 8:32; 1 Cor. 4:3, 4; Matt. 12:37; Rom. 3:4). The words imply a declaration and pronouncement from the divine court of the believer's right standing with God. "Justification" in itself does not mean a change in the man, but a declaration of how he appears in God's sight. Divine "justification" does not mean to actually make a believer righteous as an empirical reality, but it means to account him as righteous. And God does this for the believing sinner before he has been sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Paul illustrates this from the experience of Abraham: "... (as it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before Him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were." Rom. 4:17. God did not pronounce Abraham a father after Isaac was born, but while Sarah was still barren. By faith Abraham accepted that he was a father because it was so in the Word of God rather than by empirical reality. In the same way, we are to believe when the gospel tells us that we have been made righteous in Christ. If we stop to consider what we are, faith staggers as Abraham's faith would have staggered if he had considered his own dead body and the deadness of Sarah's womb. Therefore, in justification God "calleth those things which be not as though they were." Thus the believer is secure only in the merciful reckoning of God. The Lord accounts him as having more moral worth than the angels who have never sinned. But the believer knows that in himself he is not as he appears before God in His exalted Substitute. Indeed, his nature is still sinful, and the nearer he comes to Christ, the more sinful he sees himself to be. This keeps him humble, utterly dependent upon his Substitute in whom he stands wholly righteous, wholly acceptable in the sight of God. | ||
| Max |
Hi Patti, Thanks for showing me the good words from our friends the Roman Catholics! I do love to go into a near deserted Roman Catholic cathedral in the middle of the day in some large city and just kneel there and pray to God! I don't know why, but it gives me some kind of thrill to know that I can worship God in a Roman Catholic church. And I do love them dearly and attend services when I can. Of course, I would never lie and take the waifer -- since they won't give it to those who are not members. But I'm getting off track..... I don't find anything terribly major with which to disagree in the statement of excerpts you shared. I would definitely disagree with ^^ The Protestant idea of faith is the same as the Catholic idea of faith, hope, and charity. ^^ That is to say, I would stick with Luther in "faith alone." Catholics still haven't gotten over the Reformation. I listen to Catholic family radio sometimes and hear the Luther bashing that goes on. I know they're out to paint him as antinomian. They've been doing that for half a millennium. But Protestants in the vast majority have remained unconvinced of the Catholic arguments trying to show that Luther ever believed or taught that the redeemed sinner can do just as he pleases and get away with it. If they could ever succeed in hanging that one on him, they would destroy the Reformation, even at this late date. I'm not saying that that's why they keep after the great Reformer. I am saying that even after 500+ years they just haven't gotten "past" the Reformation! And I find that remarkable. Incidentally, there are many issues that separate the Catholics and the Protestants to this day. Righteousness by faith alone is only one. The papacy is without question the biggest hurdle to the ecumencial movement, of which I'm a strong promoter. Blessings to you, Patti, Max | ||
| Max |
Patti, Just read your post immediately following the one I responded to -- the one you imported from presenttruthmag.com. I went to that site to see who they were. They claim no denominational affiliation, but they do say this about themselves: ^^ The editors of the Present Truth Magazine web site are evangelical young earth creationist Christians. This web site and the material contained herein does not claim endorsement, sponsorship, or affiliation with any organized Christian denomination. ^^ And this: ^^ Present Truth Magazine seeks to uphold the objective gospel amid the present deluge of religious subjectivism. Multitudes are being caught up in the popular and frantic effort to find satisfaction in some sort of religious experience. Present Truth Magazine is a voice in this barren wilderness of groveling internalism.... ^^ Somehow this seems a little unbalanced to me and not the best source of Protestant, Catholic and Reformation documentation. Don't they know that Luther enjoyed a very very rich life of "religious experience" -- the very thing that this website finds so objectionable! And what of Isaiah's religious experience? And that of Moses? Or Paul, who had visions? Not to mention a long and very rich tradition of Christian mystics down through the ages? Something at this website doesn't "ring" quite true. They seem to have an agenda. For Reformation quotatations I'd look at a Reformation website. At any rate, I thought the material was good. But I wouldn't base my argumentation on it. Blessings, Max |
