| Author | Message | ||
| annette |
In John 20 Jesus came to the disciples and breathed on them and said "Receive the Holy Spirit." Later on Pentecost Sunday (Acts 2) the Holy Spirit came and "all of them (the disciples) were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them." How do you understand these two events? | ||
| Patti |
Good question, Annette. It is clear that the gift of tongues was one of the gifts of the Spirit. I really believe that spiritual gifts are spiritually discerned. And it is very clear in 1 Corinthians that not all of us will receive the same gifts: 1 Cor. 12: 3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. 4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. 7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. Patti: Notice the purpose of the gifts of the Spirit: They are for the common good of the church as a whole. Not as a sign of the true church, not as a basis for our acceptance with God, not as proof that we are regenerate, not for our own personal spirituality. But for the edification and strengthening of the church. Too many people today are distracted by and enamored of the "gifts of the Spirit." They falsely point to the gifts as proof that they are the "chosen," as a divisive and delineating exclusionary device instead of a drawing, unifying, inclusive, and edifying tool for the children of God. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, Patti: Humans are naturally attracted to events that are seemingly supernatural, but notice that wisdom, knowledge, and faith are not only listed, but they are listed first. It would seem to me that there is an intentional prioritizing of gifts; surely everyone here would agree that wisdom, knowledge and faith are more vital to our Christian existance than the more "showy" supernatural manifestations. Although, unfortunately, many Christians today are more impressed with the unexplainable than with the rational. 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. Patti: The Spirit gives the gifts to individuals as He determines. Notice again what is not said: This passage never says that all people will exhibit all of the gifts. In fact, the last statement indicates that the gifts will vary from person to person. That is yet another reason why no theological system should be based upon the exhibition of rationally inexplicable manifestations, such as healing, miraculous powers, and speaking in tongues. Paul reiterates the "gifts" in Romans 12, only the list is a bit different: 4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 And since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let each exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; 8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. Patti: Notice Paul focuses on the truly spiritual gifts here; the ones that truly help to unify the church: prophecy -- "testifying of Jesus"*--service, teaching, exhortation, giving, leading and showing mercy. These gifts are certainly not as "flashy" as the supernatural manifestations, but they are certainly much more vital to the life of the congregation than the other. As for the gift of prophecy, a study of the New Testament usage of the word will show that "to prophesy" was to testify of Jesus. *"The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy." I posted another essay about a month or so ago that discussed this in detail. In every instance recorded in the New Testament in which the person/persons were found to be full of faith, they prophesied; that is, they witnessed to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The disciples on the Day of Pentecost, for example. We must be very careful not to get carried away in the tide of sensationalism. I am not denying that Christians may or may not manifest supernatural events, but this is not the sign of a saved person. Jesus says it is an evil and perverse generation that demands a sign. He also told Thomas, "You believe because you have seen. Blessed are they who have never seen, yet believe." Our faith is still the single most important gift of the Spirit. Our faith in the great saving work of our Lord Jesus Christ. Of course, this is not very attention-getting. It is not flashy or glamourous or heart-stopping, and does not bring in the big bucks. Nor can it always even be "seen." In fact, those who do not believe that our salvation was wrought completely by Jesus Christ will even deny that our belief is "true faith." They want to see something, to feel something, to have some tangible evidence. But that very thing denies faith. Faith is believing without tangible evidence. Also, people who are addicted to sensationalism often become weary with the constant reiteration of the merits of Christ. (It makes me wonder what they will do in heaven, because the saints throughout all eternity will sing the song of Lamb.) We are never instructed to keep our focus on ourselves for evidence of our salvation. The main role of the Holy Spirit is to testify of Jesus. We are instructed to have lift up Jesus Christ and Him crucified, always, ever. He is the source of our Salvation, our perfect Substitute in life and in death. He is the Rock of our Salvation and in Him, we already have all the blessings of eternity now. Hallelujah, what a Savior! Thanks for posting, Annette. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Steve |
Hi Annette, I've heard some things about both of those pieces of scripture. The first has been used in SDAism to show that the Holy Spirit is like a breath, rather than a person. My position is that Jesus could have given the Holy Spirit in any number of ways, but He chose to breathe on them. It was a symbolic act. He was EXpiring while the disciples were INspiring. They received inspiration directly from God in a way that most humans have never experienced. But to say that that equates the Holy Spirit with forces like Wind or Electricity is nearly blasphemous. The Acts 2 passage was a specific fulfillment of the passage in Joel 2:28. Even Luke (the author of Acts) states that it is a fulfillment of Joel (Acts 2:16). At this time, the Holy Spirit was poured out in a final fulfillment of the day of Pentecost. Whereas Jesus had walked and talked on the earth before this time, now the Holy Spirit has been given to teach, lead, guide, and comfort God's people. Of course, we can make the mistake that some of our charismatic or Pentecostal brothers and sisters make that the speaking in tongues is THE evidence of the filling of the Holy Spirit. It is true that many believers, when they received the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues. But nowhere does scripture state that this must be so. I think both passages you point out are complimentary. Jesus gave His disciples the Holy Spirit in John 20, and the Father sent the Holy Spirit to Christ's church which effectively started in the story of Acts 2. When we SDAs say that the Joel passage is an indication of the gift of Ellen White, we are extending the fulfillment of that prophecy beyond it's actual fulfillment according to Dr. Luke. This doesn't mean that no one will ever have dreams or prophecies after Acts 2, but it does mean that Ellen White's "gift" was NOT a fulfillment of Joel's prophecy. All believers are (should be) filled with the Holy Spirit. If some believers haven't heard of the Holy Spirit (like some believers in the book of Acts) then they simply need to accept that gift from the Father (as the believers in Acts did). The Holy Spirit has been (past tense) given. But I don't think there are any conditions given to accepting the Holy Spirit. Steve | ||
| Annette |
Thanks, Patti and Steve. I agree with you. I had just recently "seen" that the disciples received the Holy Spirit BEFORE Pentecost. So it is making me ask some questions, which is good. Some might suggest that in the John passage the disciples received the INDWELLING Holy Spirit while at Pentecost the disciples received the EMPOWERING Holy Spirit. What do you think? | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
I don't believe there's anything in the Bible to suggest there is a pattern for receiving the Holy Spiritóexcept to believe in Jesus and to be sealed by the Holy Spirit. I also don't believe there's any consistent evidence that all believers receive two "baptisms" of the spirit. Sometimes people who are active Christ-followers are given special power or enabling or blessings for specific jobs God calls them to, such as evangelists like Moody, etc., who have stated that when God called them to their evangelistic work, God blessed them in a new way for that work. At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came on the apostles AND the assembled Jews AND the Gentiles who heard the recently converted Jews. This was the beginning of the church. Those assembled Jews had come from all over the world to Jerusalem for the concurrent festivals of Passover and Pentecost. They came to Jerusalem observant Jews; they left, because of Pentecost and the fact that each heard the gospel in his/her own language, believing Christ-followers. They took their new understanding and belief back to their diverse home countries, and the embryonic church was born. I do not believe the Bible suggests anywhere that we are to seek after an "empowering" Holy Spirit baptism. The consistent teaching of Jesus and Paul is that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believe, and the gifts AND the fruits of the spirit are for everyone. The Bible also says (I Cor 12, for example), that He gives the gifts to whomever He will. Nowhere does it suggest that we are to seek after a second "empowering". God gives to us what we need for whatever he asks us to do whenever He sees that we need it. When we seek after the power of the Holy Spirit, we remove our focus from Christ and him crucified and focus instead on manifestations that "confirm" our message. Neither Jesus nor Paul taught that Christ-followers are to look for such manifestations for confirmation. I believe all gifts of the Spirit are for the church. God grants them when He wants us to exercise them. It's not our job to decide we need extra power and seek a second "baptism". We are to trust that we have the Holy Spirit and that if we need special power for a special calling, God will give that to us. The Holy Spirit which we all have when we receive Jesus leads us, protects us, helps us grow, and transforms and empowers us. God's gifts are his to grant, and our relationship with him gives us the freedom to commit oursleves to him and to tell him we want his Spirit to do in us what He wishes. | ||
| Max |
Patti, Thank you for listing the GOOD WORKS that result from lives changed by the all-expensive grace of God: 1. Prophesying. 2. Serving. 3. Teaching. 4. Exhorting. 5. Giving. 6. Leading. 7. Showing mercy. These are GOOD WORKS all! They are also "filthy rags." But they could not exist without the power of the grace of God, real grace. This is evidence of lives changed for the better. Under real grace alone, Max | ||
| Patti |
To qualify as a "good work" something has to be meritorious. The gifts of the spirit have a purpose. They are for the edification of the church, NOT for the glorification of the individual believer. They have no "merit" in that they are God-given talents that we use. Since we use them, our sinful flesh makes them sinful works. They are not a part of our salvation or any part of our hope for eternity. They are merely tools that the Holy Spirit gives us to tell others of our great salvation in Jesus Christ. | ||
| Annette |
Colleen: Do you remember when you had the "Sabbath truth" and you knew that you were right and that no one could poke a hole in it, but then you began to study the Bible and really LOOK and see what it actually said? Your confidance in the Sabbath "truth" began to be shaken. (At least mine did...) Well, I agree with all you have said. It is what I thought I knew, but I am asking myself, is it REALLY what Scripture teaches, or is it someone else's (or many other's) teaching or interpretation?? This process is a little threatening and making me just a little irritable! I didn't(don't) believe in a "baptism of the Holy Spirit" (separate from the INDWELLING HS) but what does the following mean? Acts 1:5 Luke quotes Jesus who said to the disciples "Do not leave Jerulsalem, but wait for the gift my Father has promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water but in a few days you will be BAPTIZED with the Holy Spirit." It goes on and says that before Jesus ascended He said,"you will recieve power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and Judea, etc." Now by then they had already received the Holy Spirit from Jesus in John 20, so what is this passage saying? In his grip, indwelt and seal- Annette | ||
| Patti |
Annette, I do not have all the answers, but I was just wondering if you read my posts under "The Role of the Holy Spirit"? I give lotsa biblical support. You might find some answers in some of those texts. And, yes, I can understand exactly what you are going through. But God will lead you. (That is one of the functions of the Holy Spirit--to lead you into all truth.) So be patient with yourself, and rest in the truth that Christ is your full salvation. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Max |
Patti, There is not one shred of scriptural evidence for the statement that ^^ To qualify as a "good work" something has to be meritorious. ^^ --Max | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^ The gifts of the spirit have a purpose. They are for the edification of the church, NOT for the glorification of the individual believer. ^^ Nor are my prayers, my gift of a cup of cold water for a thirsty wayfairer, or any other good work powered by the Holy Spirit for my glorification. Or for the glorification of any believer. They are for the glorification of God alone! That is real grace in action! Blessings, Max | ||
| Max |
Patti, ALL good works are gifts of the Holy Spirit if they are performed by a redeemed sinner trusting in God's grace alone. -- Max | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^ They have no "merit" in that they are God-given talents that we use. Since we use them, our sinful flesh makes them sinful works. They are not a part of our salvation or any part of our hope for eternity. They are merely tools that the Holy Spirit gives us to tell others of our great salvation in Jesus Christ. ^^ It is so true that no good work has any merit at all, neither before nor after conversion. I could not agree more that, "Since we use them, our sinful flesh makes them sinful works. They are merely tools that the Holy Spirit gives us to tell others of our great salvation in Jesus Christ. " And this is precisely the case with all good works done after salvation. Blessings to you! Max | ||
| Bruce H |
Annette You bring up an interesting point about the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I agree with you, but I want you to know that this is a real devisive subject it can spark a lot of passion and fear in some people, walk carfully by the Spirit on this one. One of the Best Books I have read since being a born again christian is (Surprised by the Power of the Spirit) It is an incrediable book and I have to say is one of the Best books besides the Bible that I have read since I was saved, it deals with this point that you are talking about. Here is an interesting point. Look up in your dictionary and look up the words 1) Saved and now 2) Salvation I used to think it was the same thing but it is not everybody read for your self. Colleen I did this after you gave me the Idea after our bible study when you said that you were saved as an Adventist but you did not see untill you became born Again. Bruce Heinrich BH | ||
| Annette |
Thanks, Bruce, for your input. I do realize this is a divisive topic, which is why I am asking the questions so carefully. I have no answers or conclusions yet. But we all should be able to handle questions! I did read the book you suggested some years ago, liked it, then dismissed it and got rid of it! Perhaps it is time for a re-read. Right now i am slowly reading Experiencing the Holy Spirit by Robert Heidler. Annette | ||
| Annette |
Patti: I have downloaded that discussion and will read it today. Annette | ||
| Lydell |
Bruce, was it in Surprised by the Power of the Spirit that many excerpts are given from historical documents showing the role that the Holy Spirit has played in the church through history? I remember it was a book to really stretch ones thinking, for sure! | ||
| Lydell |
Annette, in our church we think of the Holy Spirit as filling the believer many times, not just a one shot deal at conversion. That would make sense to me with the passage that you noted. Basically the idea would be that as the believer goes through his life ministering to others, the Holy Spirit empowers him in different ways on different occassions. As Patti, has pointed out, the empowering or gifts or manifestations of the Spirit are always for the purpose of building up the body of Christ and witnessing. | ||
| Bruce H |
Lydell, Annette I loved the Book, I am know reading His second book Suprised by the Voice of God by Jack Deere, and it is as good if not even better then Surprised by the Power of the Spirit. This book does not deal with this Baptism of the Holy Spirit though. Calvary Chapels and Chuck Smith as well as Harvest Church do teach it I would like it if you could give me any information I will leave my E- mail number. I do not understand why it is such a big deal. Bruce Heinrich BH | ||
| Bruce H |
Lydell Here is how I understand the teaching. When you hear the word of truth and believe you are sealed and saved. At this point the Holy spirit indwells the believer and they are saved, however the Power of the Holy spirit is not at work in the lives of individuals untill they are Baptised by the Holy Spirit (Now when I say Baptized by the Holy Spirit I do not mean Baptized by water as in Baptism), what i mean is being Born Again or having your Heart Circumcised and your heart of stone is removed and you are given a heart of flesh, When this event happen there is usually a major change or dramatic Life changes in individuals, these are the things I see in the lives of the people that are in my FAF Bible study, they have put everything on the line for the Lord.. Those who teach this say that when you are saved or sealed by the Holy Spirit and when you are Born Again or Baptized by the Holy Spirit there can be a time lag between the Two. They say that this time lag can be years or months and a lot of the Time the sealing and the Baptism are at the some time. The significant point is this. They say that those who are sealed and not Baptised by the Holy Spirit are still victim to deception the effects and power of sin in there lives. These are the Christians who say and know they are saved yet stay in the cluthes of a cult or in bondage to some sinfull habbit. They say that if these people would repent and Obey God and desire or ask for the Power of the Holy Spirit in there lives, they will be baptised by the Holy Spirit if God wills, Howerver you can not put God in a box and He seems to do things the way he feels are best. You are also right in that this filling or baptism can happen again and again at certain times. I find this teaching facinating and am studying it in detail. Bruce Heinrich |
