| Author | Message | ||
| Steve Pitcher |
Hi folks, I've been reading the NT (really trying to stay away from the OT). In Matt. 12: 1-8 it appears, as I try to read without my SDA glasses on, that the disciples definitely broke the sabbath. Jesus may have. Yet, He says in v. 5, NJB (New Jerusalem Bible - a Catholic bible - I'm really straying now ; )) "Or again, have you not read in the Law that on the Sabbath day the Temple priests break the sabbath without committing any fault?" It appears that, although faced with the breaking of a commandment, Jesus did not comdemn the guilty party. Quite an unusual situation, when we usually are taught that Jesus always condemned the breaking of commandments. I'm not sure if I'm correct on my understanding, but feel confident that the reading in context seems to allow sabbath breaking without any condemnation from God Himself. Steve (Jude 3 & 24) | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Steve, Glad you are back. How's it going? Have you read Sabbath in Crisis. If you haven't, there are half a dozen people who would send you one. It's a very readable book. Keep checking in and keep on studying. Maryann | ||
| Steve Pitcher |
I've been given Sabbath in Crisis as well as Cultic Doctrine. However, due to tension on the home front, I've allowed the dust to collect. However, those, as well as The Shaking of Adventism, another great expose', have apparently been looked at. In todays sermon, Dale's book Sabbath in Crisis was soundly denounced as a "terrible book." My wife, who normally doesn't let out a peep, said "Amen" numerous times during the sermon. Not just because the points were agreeable to her, but because of the position I've come to about the sabbath (as well as almost all of the other SDA distinctives). I want to read them badly, but am trying to stick only with scripture until I've formally made my break. Then I'll feel free to pick those up. Thanks for your continued encouragement. Steve PS - Has anyone been to the Worldwide Church of God there in San Bernardino? I normally would not have gone to that church in the past due to their, since discarded, belief about the Godhead. However, due to pressure at home, I'm wondering how gospel oriented they have become at this time. You can contact me at jude3@ca.freei.net. Thanks | ||
| Cas |
Steve, Have you read Transformed By Truth? By Joseph T. (I need to find the correct spelling of his last name) anyway, I believe it was his Father that was head of the WWCOG. Joseph discusses the changes that were made and how they came to their gut wrenching conclusions. It is an execellent book for SDA's to read, there is much common ground. The WWCOG has a web site, I have been there but am not sure of the address now. It seems I have heard something about they do not believe in the trinity to this day. This needs to be checked out though. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Dear Steve, Last January I posted a review of certain chapters Ratzlaff's book on the Sabbath. Here are two such chpater reviews on Jesus breaking the Sabbath and commanding others to do so. I've imported them here. I'd like your reaction. Courage and blessings on your in your acceptance of new light, Jude * * * * * * * * * * By Jude the Obscure on Tuesday, January 4, 2000 - 03:09 pm: Reviews Ch.7, ìSabbath in Crisis" by Dale Ratzlaff 7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay 7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay 7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay Chapter VII -- ìThe Lord of the Sabbathî An alternate title for this chapter could be: ìJesus Asserts His Authority over Old Covenant Sabbath Law.î There are two "headlines": 1. JESUS BREAKS SABBATH BY CASTING OUT DEMON, HEALING FEVER SICKNESS (Mark 1:21-34, Luke 4:31) In synagogue (church) on Sabbath Jesus was ìteaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.î SDAs under-emphasize Jesus' teaching authority and over-emphasize his obedience to the law. Thus they turn the truth on its head. The truth is that Jesus broke the letter of the law as it was understood by all Israel and taught a newer, higher form of the law seated within himself. Jesus did not just ìtake authorityî like a rebel ñ he already had all authority by virtue of his deity. Yes, Jesus was ìunder the law,î but only in the sense that, being born under it, he kept it perfectly. But he was above the written form of the law in the sense that, having inate authority over it, he re-instated it within himself in a new, more authentic form by his actions and teachings. For example, on the Sabbath day Jesus took authority over Satan in the form of an unclean spirit and ordered it out of a man. To the Jews this was ìwork.î And Jesus agreed with them that it was indeed work. In this way Jesus redefined the law and put it on a higher level, the level of God-in-the-flesh living among us. On the Sabbath Jesus also healed Simonís mother-in-law, who was sick with a fever. And after she was healed ìshe began to wait on them.î In other words, Jesus worked by healing her and she worked by ìwaiting on them.î Itís significant that she didnít need a recovery period before she could begin to work again. It is even more significant that Jesus allowed her to work on the Sabbath in violation of Mosesí prohibition. 2. JESUS LETS HIS DISCIPLES REAP AND THRESH GRAIN ON THE SABBATH AND DEFENDS THEM AGAINST JEWISH ACCUSATIONS (Mark 2:23-28, Matthew 12:1-8, Luke 6:1-5) In defending his disciples Jesus cites the example of David, who ìentered into the house of God Ö and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests.î And he gave the meaning: ìThe Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. Consequently, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.î Itís time for SDA people to lift their hearts and admit with a clear conscience: Yes, Jesus broke the Sabbath in the only ways meaningful to the culture (church equivalent) of the time and had others do so. Since his life was sinless, he demonstrated that this kind of Sabbath-breaking ñ whether or not it was a violation of Exodus 20 ñ was not a violation of the new covenant law that he represented as God-in-the-flesh on earth. Need more scriptural evidence? Here it is: ìHave you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath, and are innocent? But I say to you, that something greater than the temple is here.î Matthew 12:5-7, NAS. The point is not whether SDA pastors have to work hardest on Sabbath and are blameless. At best, that point is only a legalism. The real point is: Something greater than the temple (which housed the law) was there. Jesus Christ was demonstrating that the Sabbath, which was only a shadow-pointing-to-him, was being re-centered from words-on-stone-tablets to the person of himself. This is what even we former Adventists have to struggle with. In our new way of life, which may involve work or recreation on the seventh day, are we simply reacting to the abuses of our former Adventist leaders, whom we now think are wrong? If so, weíre missing the point! The point is that the person of Jesus Christ IS our Sabbath rest. This truth must be a living reality in our lives and not just an excuse to ìgo to the moviesî or ìgo shoppingî or ìmow the lawnî on Saturday. If we are to realize the truth of the Sabbath for today, we must make sure that we are living the life of Christ, living in the kingdom of heaven, right here on earth, right now in the year 2000, 24-hours each day, seven days each week. 7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay 7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay 7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay Read "Sabbath in Crisis" for yourself. Write Life Assurance Ministries, P.O. Box 282, Sedona AZ 86340. Or call 1.520.282.4319. Do not go gentle into SDA night, Rage against the dying of the gospel light, Jude -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By Jude the Obscure on Tuesday, January 4, 2000 - 07:52 pm: Reviews Ch.8 of ìSabbath in Crisis" by Dale Ratzlaff 7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay 7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay 7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay Chapter VIII -- ìSabbath Conflictsî In three Sabbath incidents Jesus asserts powers only God can claim. Adventists typically attack Jesus Christís status as fully God-on-earth. They do this by relegating him to ìour elder brother,î ìthe son of Godî (meaning something less than fully God), or ìour exampleî (denying that he is more). Their closed minds cannot relate to these incidents as they were written. And they seek to downplay their significance by claiming that ìJesus was only trying to show the Jews HOW to keep the Sabbath of the law properly.î The three incidents may be headlined as: 1. JESUS HEALS WITHERED HAND ON SABBATH (Luke 6:6-11, Matthew 12:9-14, Mark 3:1-6). In synagogue (church equivalent) Jesus was teaching on the Sabbath. A man with a withered hand was in the congregation. Jesus asked him to come forward. He did so. Jesus then asked, ìIs it lawful on the Sabbath to do good, or to do evil, to save a life, or to destroy it?î No response. ìStretch out your hand,î said Jesus. The man did so, and immediately his hand was restored healthy. At the sight of this miracle the synagogue members ìwere filled with rage, and discussed together what they might to do Jesus.î In response Jesus said, ìWhat man shall there be among you, who shall have one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it, and lift it out? Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep! So then it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.î The Adventist way of looking at this incident is to put Jesus in a one-down position. Poor little Jesus, trying to defend his actions so that they wouldnít ìdestroy him.î The gospel way of looking at it is to understand that Jesus is DECLARING and not PLEADING. He deliberately challenged the Jews in their own ìchurchî building, declared that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath, and then followed through on his declaration. In so doing he was asserting his control over the law, his authorship of the law, and his interpretation of the law. This is not something that a person who is ANYTHING LESS THAN FULLY GOD can do! 2. JESUS HEALS MAN WITH EDEMA (DROPSY OR SWELLING) ON THE SABBATH (Luke 15:1-6). Again Jesus takes utter charge of the situation. He accepted a dinner invitation at a high-society home. The Pharisees and lawyers were watching him closely. Jesus looked them in the eye and asked, ìíIs it lawful to heal on the Sabbath, or not?í But they kept silent.î Jesus then boldly healed the man, sent him on his way, then boldly asked, ëîWhich one of you shall have a son or an ox fall into a well, and will not immediately pull him out on the Sabbath day.í And they could make no reply.î The elite of society planned a trap for this ìupstart.î Jesus didnít fall into the trap. He destroyed it. They could not not cow this ìGod with us.î Instead Jesus single-handedly reduced them all to an enraged silence by showing that they care more for their own ìflesh and bloodî or even an animal than another human being. Note also that this was not an emergency situation. Jesus could just have well waited till the next day. But he did not, because he was demonstrating his right to redefine the law of Moses. Again, only God could do this. 3. JESUS HEALS MAN SICK 38 YEARS AND TELLS HIM TO CARRY LOAD ON THE SABBATH (Luke 5:1-18, 7:14-24). A 38-year chronic condition is not a life-threatening emergency. Jesus deliberately provoked a serious confrontation with the ìpowers that beî of his day. He not only healed the man on the Sabbath but also told him to carry his bedroll. Both actions broke the Halakah, equivalent of a legal code. (Halakah: legal portion of the Talmud and of post-Talmudic literature concerned with personal, communal, and international activities, as well as with religious observance. The term usually refers to the Oral Law, as codified in the MISHNA. This Jewish tradition sought to elicit from the biblical text directives for proper Jewish behavior, including religious and ritual activities. About A.D. 180 Halakah and Haggadah together were codified as the Mishnah.) ìFor this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God [John 5:9-18, NAS].î From the Gospel of John, then, we learn that Jesus actually was breaking the Sabbath and teaching others to do so. We should not limit our understanding to thinking that he ìwasnít really breaking the Sabbath,î but only trying to show the Jews how to keep it better. Yes, John tells us that he really was breaking the Sabbath. If this goes against your grain, it is because you are still trapped in the SDA mode of thinking that subordinates Jesus to the law of Moses. Clear your mind of that claptrap and let Jesus be God! This is proof that the Sabbath is not a part of the moral law (such as ìno murder,î ìno stealing,î ìno coveting,î ìno adultery,î etc.). For Jesus never broke or had others break the moral part of the law. It is proof that the Sabbath is part of the ceremonial law (like circumcision, sewing tassels on the hems of your garments, shunning pork and shellfish, wearing clothes of wool and linen woven together, etc.). Therefore, breaking it isnít the same as breaking the eternal moral law that emanates from God who is in Christ Jesus. Further proof of Jesus Christ demonstrating that he is God incarnate: He didnít ìexplainî how working on the Sabbath wasnít really breaking the Sabbath. Instead he ìraised the stakes,î so to speak, he escalated the tension, by stating: ìMy Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.î The Jews reacted strongly to what they considered blasphemy: ìFor this cause the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking [Greek, destroying] the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.î John 5:18. When Jesus said he was Lord of the Sabbath, he meant something much more radical than the SDAs think. He was literally putting an end to the Sabbath as a legal requirement. 7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay 7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay 7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay7thDay Read "Sabbath in Crisis" for yourself. Write Life Assurance Ministries, P.O. Box 282, Sedona AZ 86340. Or call 1.520.282.4319. Do not go gentle into SDA night, Rage against the dying of the gospel light, Jude | ||
| Dennis |
Cas, The book titled "Transformed by Truth" by Joseph Tkach, Jr. should be required reading for all Adventists. The Worldwide Church of God changed approximately 50% of their doctrines to embrace the Gospel. Yes, they do believe in the Trinity now. I have worshipped with their group here in Lincoln, Nebraska. It was a great blessing to me. Their example and courage to change is a grave threat to Adventism. Hundreds of pastors and about 70,000 legalists left their church during this transition to the New Covenant. As Steve Brown, professor of preaching at Reformed Theological Seminary, stated: "Wow! What a story! "Transformed by Truth" was a healing balm for this old preacher's cynicism. Read this book and rejoice with the angels. You'll be glad you did." | ||
| Bruce H |
DENNIS I would Love to here your story, and a little bit more about the Changes in the Church. I believe this is a true miracle and we former Adventist should look into this. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Plain Patti, Could you find that excellent post you imported to FAF some weeks back? And then import it into this Discussion? That is the clearest exposition of Jesus breaking the Sabbath I've read to date. Ratzlaff is a little weak on this point. You got it from someone else. It's also very clear on his right and justification for doing so. And even the necessity for him to do so. Pretty please? Jude | ||
| Plain Patti |
Your wish is my command! Consider it done! :) ----------------------------- I found this on another forum (Adventist Issues), and I am posting it here with the permission of the author, Louis Kuntz. Jesus and the Sabbath Did Jesus live in accordance with the terms of the Sinai covenant? To some extent he did. As Paul put it, "when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law [the Sinai covenant] to redeem those who were under the law . . . " (Gal 4:4-5). Jesus was circumcised on the eighth day according to the law. He honored Moses. He kept the feast days. In short, Jesus lived as a Jew. But he also contradicted Moses and the old covenant. In the Sermon on the Mount he appeared as the new Moses, the Prophet who was to come, saying over and over, You have heard that it was said... But I tell you.... Matt:21-22, 27-28, 31-32, 33-34, 38-39, 43-44. He declared distinctions between clean and unclean foods no longer valid: In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean". Mark 7:18,19). While he affirmed a reverence for the temple, the focal point of Judaism, Jesus also proclaimed that now that he was present the place of worship was irrelevant: a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. John 4:20-24. And how did Jesus relate to the sabbath, the weekly sign of allegiance to the old covenant? Like a good Jew, he worshipped at the synagogue every sabbath as was customary: on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. Luke 4:16. But he did not keep the sabbath as Moses had commanded. In fact, Jesus was a sabbath breaker. Some would argue against this by asserting that he only broke the rabbis' traditions regarding Sabbath observance and not the revealed law from Sinai. But this cannot be maintained in the face of biblical evidence. Let us look at two examples. The first example is found in Matthew 12: At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the sabbath; his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, "Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the sabbath." (Matt 12:1-2) Were the Pharisees correct? Was this act contrary to the law? Without a doubt the answer to both questions is yes. The very first sabbath command that God gave to anyone is that which we have already noted in Exodus 16:23-30: "This is what the LORD commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'" So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. "Eat it today," Moses said, "because today is a Sabbath to the LORD. You will not find any of it on the ground today. Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any." Nevertheless, some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. Then the LORD said to Moses, "How long will you refuse to keep my commands and my instructions? Bear in mind that the LORD has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out." So the people rested on the seventh day. That law specifically prohibited gathering food and traveling out of one's place on the seventh day. Any work such as gathering food was to be finished on the sixth day, the day of preparation. What were Jesus and his disciples doing? Traveling through a grainfield gathering food! Didn't Jesus know about the preparation day? The Pharisees knew the law, and on the basis of the law from Sinai they were right in challenging Jesus. But Jesus didn't answer with the excuse that they were hungry and this was an act of necessity. In no way did he argue on the basis of Moses' law - He was clearly in violation of it. Instead, Jesus first argued that as David and his men ate the showbread in the temple when hungry, yet remained guiltless, so also now; symbols are only symbols and must take second place to human need. Symbols were made to benefit people, not to control them. But the second part of his argument is startling. Jesus said: Have you not read in the law how on the sabbath the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are guiltless? I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. (Matt 12:5,6) Christ was referring to the fact that for priests doing temple duty, work on the sabbath was permitted. Why? The temple was the focal point of the covenant. Its inner sanctum held the terms of the covenant as well as the presence of God himself. But Jesus said, "Something greater than the temple is here," referring to himself. Jesus was proclaiming that he is the reality, the fulfillment of all that to which the temple pointed. And here is the thrust of his argument: If priests in the service of the temple could break the sabbath law prohibiting work and yet remain guiltless, so too could the disciples profane the sabbath in the service of Jesus who is greater than the temple. The sabbath was only a sign, signifying that a person was entitled to worship in the temple as a member of the covenant people. The temple was therefore greater than the sabbath, because there Israel worshipped God. The temple worship was a reality greater than the sabbath. But Jesus is greater than even the temple, and this means that he is also the reality which is greater than the sabbath. The second example of Jesus breaking the sabbath is found in John 5. Jesus found a paralytic by the pool of Bethesda in Jerusalem. He healed the man and said, "Rise, take up your pallet and walk.î John continues the story: Now that day was the sabbath. So the Jews said to the man who was cured, "It is the sabbath; it is not lawful for you to carry your pallet.î But he answered them, "The man who healed me said to me, `Take up your pallet, and walk.'ì John 5:9-11 Were the Jews right? Was it unlawful for the man to carry his pallet according to God's word, or was it just contrary to their traditions? In the time of Jeremiah, when God was about to punish his people for sabbath-breaking, the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah: Take heed for the sake of your lives, and do not bear a burden on the sabbath day or bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem. And do not carry a burden out of your houses on the sabbath or do any work, but keep the sabbath day holy . . . Jer 17:21,22 This was not just a Jewish tradition, it was a commandment of God. What did Jesus tell the man to do? - to carry a burden in Jerusalem on the sabbath day in direct contradiction to an Old Testament command! And Jesus didn't stop there. When the Jews challenged him, he shocked them even more. Rather than explaining that he was merely showing the right way to keep the sabbath, Jesus admitted their charge. His answer was, "My Father is working still, and I am working" (John 5:17). This was on the sabbath and Jesus said, "I am working.î What does the fourth commandment of the decalogue say? "The seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.î What did Jesus say he was doing? Working! Working to bring forth the new age, the new creation. Then John summarizes the two reasons why the Jews were attacking Jesus: "This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God" John 5:18 Was Jesus actually making himself equal with God or was this merely the Jews' accusation? Of course he was claiming personal divinity. This is John's account. Was he also breaking the sabbath? According to the Gospel writer, of course he was. The book of Hebrews uses the sabbath as a type of Christ. Throughout the epistle the argument is that Jesus is better than the old covenant; better than Moses, priests, the temple, sacrifices, the promised land, etc. And in Hebrews 3 and 4 the author uses the sabbath rest of God at creation as a type of the real rest believers have in Jesus. Hebrews 3 speaks of the promised rest for Israel in the wilderness. God invited them to enter the promised land and rest. Instead, through unbelief they died in the wilderness. The next generation did enter the promised land with Joshua, but because of unbelief they too did not find the rest. Hundreds of years later the psalmist again offered God's invitation to rest. He termed "today" (the present) as the time when the invitation remained open, saying, "Today, when you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.î But his readers didn't receive the rest. The writer of Hebrews again presents the invitation to enter the rest, this time comparing it to the sabbath. He says: For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later of another day. So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God; for whoever enters God's rest also ceases from his labors as God did from his. (Heb 4:8-10) What is this sabbath rest? The meaning of the text is better understood with the reading "Sabbath-like rest.î That Sabbath-like rest is found in the gospel and those who believe the gospel have already entered that long-promised rest, as Hebrews 4:3 says, "we who have believed enter that rest.î The writer then gives his appeal so that all who wish to may enter that rest. Through the gospel of Christ we now have the reality, the true and permanent rest of which the weekly sabbath was only a type, a dim foreshadowing. Our Salvation Rest in Jesus is as good as it gets. Louis Kuntz -- March 9, 2000 | ||
| Dennis |
Bruce, The dramatic, doctrinal changes in the Worldwide Church of God are an encouragement as well as a threat to Seventh-day Adventists. With the WCG rejecting the teachings of founder Herbert W. Armstrong and embracing historic Christianity, it is truly the religious story of the Nineties. Many SDAs fear the fragmenting of their church as well; especially scary, the thought of being next in transition and even possibly soon. In reading Joseph Tkach, Jr.'s book, TRANSFORMED BY TRUTH, one cannot escape the striking similarites with Adventism. I particularly enjoyed the chapter titled "How Could We Have Believed These Things?" Tkach goes on to describe the term "cognitive dissonance" where in many instances they championed two flatly contradictory doctrines at the same time. People tend to reject new information that contradicts ideas they already hold, in a sort of "don't bother me with the facts, my mind is made up" strategy. My wife and I have enjoyed attending several of their worship services recently. We share so much in common as our spiritual heritage. The true gospel of Christ is also new to them. They too are wounded and suffering at times from losing friends and loved ones due to their adherence to New Covenant Christianity (the only kind there is). Their changes are not yet complete, despite being very extensive already. They are now working on organizational change, to enable the local church to be more empowered and/or congregational. For further information, simply visit their official Web site at: www.wcg.org They no longer have a closed theology-closed mind paradigm to hinder the everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ. You are welcome to e-mail me anytime. In His grace, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Bruce H |
Dennis Jesus is at work,and you can see the work of God all around us. | ||
| Steve |
Hi All, and Jude, I've finally got around to reading your posts from Ratzlaff's book. Wonderful. Of course, I, like many others, have criticized SDA pastors for breaking the Sabbath commandment, while requiring others to keep it. But as pointed out above, that's not the point. Jesus re-seated the commandments in Himself. The Sabbath pointed to Him as our ultimate Rest. As I read Hebrews recently I learned from Chapters 3 and 4 that by being in Him, we have truly entered that Rest. Thank you for your reviews of Ratzlaff's material. Although I will probably criticize SDA pastors, I think I'll focus that criticism on their unwillingness to point to Jesus instead of the Sabbath. I'll continue to find my True Sabbath rest in Jesus Himself, and not in externals. Resting in Him, Steve | ||
| Steve |
By the way, Jude, You often (always?) close your posts with: Do not go gentle into SDA night, Rage against the dying of the gospel light. Is that copyrighted? Did you write it? Can I use it/quote it? I really like it. It says much in a nice concise way. Steve | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Steve, It's a quote from a fantastic poem by Dylan Thomas called, "Do Not Go Gentle into That Good Night." You certainly may use it, many people do. It's very famous. I've modified it slightly. Here's another quote from that same poem: "Grave men, near death, who saw with blinding sight blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay, do not go gentle into that good night, but rage, rage against the dying of the light." Wow, I get goose bumps! In my opinion Dylan Thomas was the most talented poet of his age, more so even than T.S. Eliot, another poet I love, especially his, "Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock." When we get out of our SDA rut of "the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy only," a whole world of great literature can open up to us like flowers on seemingly-dead cacti after a season of hard rains in Joshua Tree National Park. And now I can see the truth in the saying, "The kingdom of heaven is under our feet as well as over our heads." That little aphorism, I don't know who composed it, refers back to Jesus saying in Luke 17:20,21. Grace plus nothing to you, friend Steve, Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Jude, Do you have recall on this poetry, etc? Or do you have to look it up? You are so full of so many neat things that it just amazes me. And keep up the modifications too :-) Maryann | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Maryann, I recall what I've recited here, but I can't recall the entire poem. | ||
| Sherry2 |
I have a question. Now I see how Dale made a point on the Sabbath not being from the beginning....but then why in the 4th commandment does it sy "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed "the Sabbath day" and hallowed it... That seems to indicate that He called it a Sabbath day from the beginning? What am I missing? | ||
| Steve |
Hi Sherry2, Dunno if this is specific to your question, but I found it interesting. In a sermon today (I've attended some Sunday churches for the past few weeks) the sermon was about the seventh day of creation. In discussion about the Sabbath day, the speaker pointed out Nehemiah 9:13, 14. In the Revised NASB, it reads: 13 "Then You came down on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven; You gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments. 14 So You made known to them Your holy sabbath, And laid down for them commandments, statutes and law, Through your servant Moses." For me, the amazing part was the beginning of vs. 14. It appears that, although God definitely rested on the seventh day, it was not a command for humans UNTIL Moses brought it down from Mt. Sinai. It was then that He "made known" His Sabbath. It seems that it may not have been a Commandment from the beginning. Also, in the Genesis passage (Gen. 2:1-3) there is not and "evening and morning" in the passage. It appears that God "rested" after the creation, and that "rest" that He entered did not start or stop according to our reckoning of time. God's rest is His cessation from creation of heaven and earth, not an arbitrary 24 hour period based on the relationship between the earth and the sun. The word "sabbath" does not even occur in the beginning. Hope this helps some. Steve | ||
| Colleentinker |
Good, Steve. Another point is that in Hebrews 4 where it says there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, that reference is not to a day; it's a reference to rest in Christ. The Sabbath day was the sign of the covenant between God and Israel (Mossaic Covenant). When that covenant ended at the cross and the New Covenant began, there came with it a new covenant sign: the body and blood of communion. There still remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, but that Sabbath is eternal rest from our works. Christ's finished work ushered in our rest. Our mandate is to learn to live in that restóto submit every moment to Christ and to let him do the fretting for us. I read a quote in Oswald Chambers today that said for a Christian, fretting is sin. Fretting is not embracing that Sabbath rest that is now ours: a living connection with God without sin keeping us from him! This all sounds so simplistic; it's hard to learn to submit every moment to Jesus. But He helps us know how and when to turn things over to him. Sabbath, after all means "rest", not "time" or a "day". Colleen | ||
| Sherry2 |
Does anyone know...can I celebrate communion in my home with my family and do this together? The Lord's Supper that is... |
