| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
"Far I see" Pharisees? They thought they saw far. | ||
| Maryann |
Yeh Max, I guess those last two should have gone in to the HUMOR section? That was good! ;-)) | ||
| Maryann |
Bruce, Thanks, Now I want to get into an area that will be sure to get me in trouble. I have touched on it before and it didn't work. Lets see if I can get it said right this time. I looked up the words Faith, Believe, Belief, and Trust, all of these can be verbs depending on how they are used. Most of them are nouns first. The word believe, how ever IS a verb first. When I have trouble understanding something, I like to take it apart and look at all the litte pieces and see what they are for and what they do for the whole thing. Salvation, grace, belief, works, trust and I am sure some others are all tied up together. They are like a pile of old bricks, with no order and some stuck together out of order. What we have to do is take them all apart lay them all out, and then start picking all the pieces up in the right order. If we get them out of order we will not have as good a wall as we could. If the order in which we pick them up is bad enough we may not have a wall at all, just a jumbled pile of usless words. The way we use the words governs what our thoughts about any subject will be. If we put the words together one way we will think one thing, if we put them together another way, we will think something very different. Take the word believe, it is a verb it shows that we do something, take some action. The word belief is first a noun, it's a thing, when we have a belief we have something. When we have something we have done something to get it, in this case we believe. Do you see where I am going? When we decide to believe we are taking an action and an action is usualy some kind of "work." When Christ refered to a work we must do as the work of believing "in Him who sent Me" He showed that there was atleast one thing that WE could that is acceptable. This may be the only "work" we can do that is O.K. George | ||
| George |
Bruce, I went and posted under my sisters name again. The reason I'm correcting this is, there is NO possible way she could come up with something this good. :-) George. | ||
| Patti |
George, Yes, we act. We believe. But we are *saved* by actions other than our own. We are saved only by the mercy (grace) of God alone. Grace is God's favor toward undeserving sinners. It alone saves us. Not anything inside ourselves. As you pointed out earlier, even our faith is weak, not even amounting to a grain of mustard seed. All we can do is cling to the conviction that God has saved us. We have no other hope. God bless, Patti | ||
| George |
Patti, I think I see where you are comming from now. It is Gods gift of His Son that saves us. NOTHING ELSE. Nothing but so great a gift could do it!!!! Can you agree with this: There is someting we MUST do to be saved, we must avail ourselves of it. To avail ourselves of salvation we must do the "work" of believing. Right? It might look like I am being picky about this but I have seen many and I mean many arguments on this point where the people parted with hatred. Thanks for sticking in there--George P.S. If you don't agree let me know. | ||
| Bruce H |
George Eph 2:8,9 NKJV For by Grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God not of works, lest ANYONE should boast. Here is one to memorize!!!!! Bruce Heinrich | ||
| George |
Burce, If I am in quicksand up to my chest there is no way that I could save myself even if I tried to, I just could not get myself out of it. Now you come along and want to pull me out, this is real nice of you, but there is something that I, and I alone MUST do to be saved from death. NO ONE CAN DO IT FOR ME. I must reach out for your hand. In this sense I have something to do with my own saving. I MUST DO THIS OR I WONT BE SAVED. You can't argue this point IT IS FACT. Right? But,I still can not save myself, I could never pull myself out of the quicksand, you must do that. I CAN NOT SAVE MYSELF, but there is something I MUST DO TO BE SAVED. I must believe and reach out to Christ, when I do that all the power in the universe is centered on me and I am pulled out of sin. Right? So you see, there IS something we can and MUST do to be saved. Christ will not save you if you don't want to be saved. He died so you can be saved, but you must want to be saved BEFORE He CAN DO IT FOR YOU. HE DOES THE ACTUAL SAVING, NOT ME. What do you think?----George | ||
| Patti |
George: It is Gods gift of His Son that saves us. NOTHING ELSE. Nothing but so great a gift could do it!!!! Patti: There you go! George: Can you agree with this: There is someting we MUST do to be saved, we must avail ourselves of it. To avail ourselves of salvation we must do the "work" of believing. Right? Patti: I am not saying you are wrong, George, but I do not see "believing" as a work. For example, how much "work" is it for you to believe in gravity? Or, when you were a child, in the fact that your parents love you? (I hope this is applicable!!) Does your belief in gravity or in your parent's love have any effect on them at all? No. But your life will be quite different if you believe in gravity than if you don't. You will plan your whole life around that fact. Although this analogy cannot be taken totally literally, I think it is a good place to start. God's salvation is there whether we believe it or not. I believe <g> that the belief is not nearly as important to God as it is to us. Just like it is not as important to the parent that the child believes that (s)he loves him, as it is that the child himself believes it. It is very important for our lives here on this earth to believe that Jesus Christ is our full salvation. It changes our entire perspective: We live as children of the King whose inheritance is a certainty. We do not have to perform any "meritorious" works to receive our inheritance. It is ours by right because Jesus Christ has secured it for us. George: It might look like I am being picky about this but I have seen many and I mean many arguments on this point where the people parted with hatred. Patti: You are not being nit-picky. What you are speaking of is part of what sparked the Great Reformation and, indeed, still cause strife and dissension in the church today. There are many Christians who just cannot let go that salvation is Christ's alone; that there is nothing we can do to reconcile ourselves to God. The human ego is very strong, and the Gospel cuts directly against our grain. The Gospel is foolishness to those who have not seen it. Therefore, you have much hostility when you say that we are saved by a righteousness totally outside of ourselves. People do not want to give up the control that they think they have over their own spiritual destiny. Paul was accused of "antinomianism"--being against the law and good works. Romans 3:5 But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8 Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved. And the same arguments that he was faced were brought forth with violence during the Reformation and are indeed still plaguing the church today. The Catholic position on salvation (which, somewhat ironically, is the same as SDA) is that God declares us righteous because of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ, but then the Holy Spirit comes into our hearts and makes us, makes our works, pleasing to God. The reformed position was/is that we are saved by the righteousness of Christ which God credits to those who trust in Him alone. Nothing that we do will ever be acceptable to God. We are always sinners saved only by the mercy of God. The RCC/SDA gospel is that God makes sinners righteous and holy. The reformed (and Pauline) Gospel is that God declares believers righteous and holy. The implications: The RCC/SDA gospel keeps people focused on their own works. They must necessarily keep an eye on their progress as "born-again" Christians--a horribly redundant term. The reformed Gospel keeps people focused on the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ as their only hope. Growing closer to God means that they only see themselves as more and more sinful and totally dependent upon the mercy of God for the sake of His Son Jesus Christ. The RCC/SDA Gospel leaves us in doubt because honest people will know that their lives are not perfectly reflecting the image of Christ. The reformed Gospel leaves us in a state of amazement at the great love of God in accepting us just as we are, joy because Christ has completely won our salvation, and security because our salvation is not based upon what we do/have done/have not done. It is difficult for some people to see through this last step to spiritual freedom, to let go of our own works completely and accept that we will always be sinners saved only by the mercy of God: that nothing we can do, before or after "conversion," is acceptable to God. Our only hope remains IN JESUS CHRIST. George: Thanks for sticking in there. Patti: For you, absolutely! God is leading you. And it is very exciting for me to see God in action. God bless! Grace and peace always. | ||
| George |
Patti, I just read your post quickly and will have to spend more time on it, but we do have control of our salvation, we have to believe to get it. Believing is not really work but it is still doing something. Right? Out of time---George | ||
| Bruce H |
George I believe you are right that it is believing, but I beleve that even that is a gift. You see God has no place for pride in the new covenant He nailed it to the cross. I remember at one time in my life, when I was upset to learn this, and I mean real upset and it took me a lone time and a lot of prayer, because I was the one who believed right. But the more I studied and the more I prayed for God to take away my pride the more the truth that it is a gift period. Now i know that it is a Gift, and I thank him for that. Bruce Heinrich George and everybody else the next time i clock in i will be in washington i hope i can do it from there? | ||
| Patti |
Bruce, I agree with you 100% Salvation, in its entirety, is a gift from God. Travel safely! Patti | ||
| George |
Bruce and Patti, If belief is a gift from God, how does He decide which of us to give it to. He must be choosing which of us will believe and which of us will not. This seems like predestination to me! The ones that don't believe don't have a chance I guess, they just didn't get the gift!!!!! How can we make this so all of us have a chance. Need a chance----George | ||
| Patti |
George, We don't have to make it anything. Salvation is GOD'S work. And He will do what He wants to do. Read Romans 9. Who really knows for sure what God's motives are? I believe there is biblical evidence for predestination, especially Romans 9, as well as for its opposite, universalism; but I do not see that it is relevant to salvation. What we believe God will or will not do, can or cannot do has no bearing on our personal salvation. We can only view it in the light of what God has already done in Jesus Christ, and believe that whatever He chooses to do will be the right thing. Too much speculation on what God can or cannot do places us in a position of judging God. We cannot truly trust in God while we question His motives or limit His powers. The important thing is that God has given you the chance. And you, in turn, are commissioned to tell others, so that they can "hear" and "believe." God calls us to rest in Jesus Christ, not to be constantly churning because we cannot fully understand His work. Jesus Christ is our salvation in full. How God "rations" salvation is up to Him. We must trust that whatever God chooses to do is merciful as well as holy and righteous and totally just. Faith places our eternal destiny in God's hands entirely. We should not worry about who will be lost; judgment is in Christ's hands. We should believe that whatever He does is good. And we should tell as many people as we can that Jesus Christ is their full salvation. You have more than a chance, George. The Lamb is worthy; therefore we are declared holy in Him. Focus on the Reality--what has been done and accomplished on your behalf, and not upon the unknown and faulty--what happens inside of you. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Pat Darnell |
I have dropped in here about three times this year, and posted a response, which was lost both times before - I'll try one more time. George, Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will draw ALL unto Me." Now that is what He said - not I! So there's your chance! I don't worry about the things I cannot understand about predestination. If there is in your heart a desire for Christ, you are chosen - from before the foundations of the world! Whether it is individual or corporate "choosing", I don't know. But "the secret things belong to God"; and He, being a RIGHTeous God, will ALWAYS "do the RIGHT thing!" That gives me great comfort! I suspect there will be many, many more in heaven than we thought, having been raised SDA and exclusive! Jesus can gift anyone He chooses with life eternal, and I can't imagine Him creating thousands of people He doesn't "want"...can you? | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Pat, Good to see you post. Patti's a great kid! :-) Loved your book! Maryann | ||
| Pat Darnell |
Thank you much! :-) I'll drop back in again... | ||
| George |
Pat Darnell, Hi and thanks for responding. Your responce will not be lost on me, However I will not have the time till Monday to write back to you. Patti, There are some things in your last post I don't understand and will have to think about over the weekend. Have a good weekend----George | ||
| Patti |
George, You know where I am! :) You have a wonderful weekend also! Patti | ||
| Bruce H |
HI Hi everybody I am writting to you from the state of Washington now boy is this internet amazing. The Lord help me out a lot to day and made for a real great trip. Bruce Hienir |
