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Lydell
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2000 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darrell, can't speak for Bruce, but yes, what I was referring to was the curse of being married to the law. That seems to be what all SDA's are. (Have met few sabbatarians from other denominations. But do see similar problems with those I have met.)

There is lip service to the idea that we are saved by grace, yet there is always an unconcious "but" added to it. THE "but" to the SDA mind is "but if you are REALLY a Christian, then you will obviously be keeping the 10 commandments and that includes the sabbath, and therefore, if you are NOT keeping the sabbath, well..." In my experience, it always came back to that. It was never a matter of just salvation by grace, there was always that additional requirement. I really believe the SDA who tells himself that he isn't like that is fooling himself.

The problem with "keeping the 7th day" is the attitudes that subtly creep in of constantly examining oneself to see if your present activity is sufficiently spiritual enough for you to be doing it on the sabbath. If you aren't engaged in that, then you are engaged in taking a hard look at your spouse or your kids or neighbor or others to see if they are measuring up.

It just seems that there is something inherent in the attempt to keep the sabbath that instead eventually turns the focus back on ones own abilities. And when that happens, the focus can't remain on Christ because you are constantly doing this measuring thing. It comes back to the whole thing of the laws purpose being to hold a mirror up in front of our face to show us that we are hopeless so that we will be driven to Christ.

As Bruce said, "good luck" to the person who thinks they can avoid the pitfall. I realize there are Christian churches who choose, for whatever reason, to meet on Saturday. I just doubt very much, from personal experience, that they can pull it off without falling into the legalistic mindset.
Djconklin
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2000 - 5:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

>>here is lip service to the idea that we are saved by grace, yet there is always an unconcious "but" added to it. THE "but" to the SDA mind is "but if you are REALLY a Christian, then you will obviously be keeping the 10 commandments and that includes the sabbath, and therefore, if you are NOT keeping the sabbath, well..." In my experience, it always came back to that. It was never a matter of just salvation by grace, there was always that additional requirement. I really believe the SDA who tells himself that he isn't like that is fooling himself.

It's not an additional requirement--anymore than keeping the other nine are "additional requirements". It's just that your actions will speak volumes about what you really believe--"by their fruits shall ye know them". Those who believe that it isn't important or that the Sabbath was somehow miraculousy (sp?) abolished are the one's who are fooling themselves.
Darrell
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2000 - 5:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell, I agree that the focus should not be on "keeping" the Sabbath, but on Christ. Would you agree with my statement that God has not removed His blessing from the Sabbath? If not, on what basis would you disagree? (Anyone else is free to answer also.)
Cindy
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2000 - 6:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry2, Hi! I like what you said above:

"To me, the Sabbath day, according to the old covenant, either still stands or it does not. We cannot have it both ways. Was Christ a fulfillment of Sabbath or wasn't he? This has a lot to do with the gospel. How did the Ten commandments become such a creed in the Christian church - did the Roman Catholic church get us focused back on old covenant law, hence the priestly system they have themselves, and we as Christians haven't entirely left the system and are still trying to hang onto the old covenant and new covenant? It can't go both ways. Hebrews makes it plain that the old covenant is obselete, and Today is the Day...as Sabbath represented a time (as stated in that article)of repentance, then so does the Today of Hebrews where it states "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." Did Christ fulfill Sabbath or didn't he?"

I agree...

This is an area I have encountered by going to the Presbyterian church (PCA)on Sundays. I have also attended a number of great conferences at the Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia (famous for being the church of Donald Grey Barnhouse and the Adventist's 'Questions on Doctrine' book from the fifties. BTW, just a few weeks ago their present pastor, James Boice, died of cancer at the age of 61 or 62. He had been there since he was 29 and had been a strong man of faith...) In a local church here I've heard some good sermons on 'Christ alone' from the book of Galations; but then, the longer I looked into the beliefs and went to a few of their Sunday School classes, I have found that they hold the 10 Commandments to be the Moral Law that is still binding to Christians, albeit a less rigid view of the Sabbath as a 'final test' for believers as Adventists assert. Nevertheless, they teach in their Westminster Shorter Catechism in Modern English the following:

"Q. 40. What rules did God first reveal for man to obey?
A. The rules He first revealed were the moral law."

"Q. 41. Where is the moral law summarized?
A. The moral law is summarized in the ten commandments."

Question 42 then asks what the essence of the ten commandments is, and answers that "the essence of the ten commandments is to love the Lord our God with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our strength, and with all our mind, and to love everyone else as we love ourselves."

"Q. 43. What introduces the ten commandments?
A. These words introduce the ten commandments: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery."

"Q. 44. What does the introduction to the ten commmandments teach us?
A. The introduction to the ten commandments teaches us that, because God is Lord and is our God and redememer, we must keep all His commandments."

Going on, it describes each commandment... what each requires, and what each forbids. On the Sabbath commandment it says, (after quoting the version from Exodus 20):

"Q. 58. What does the fourth commandment require?
A. The fourth commandment requires us to set apart to God the times He has established in His word--specifically one whole day out of every seven as a holy Sabbath to Him."

"Q. 59. Which day of the week has God designated as the Sabbath?
A. From the beginning of the world until the resurrection of Christ God established the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath. From that time until the end of the world the first day of the week is the Christian Sabbath."

"Q.60. How do we keep the Sabbath holy?
A. We keep the Sabbath holy by resting the whole day from worldly affairs or recreations, even ones that are lawful on other days. Except for necessary work or acts of mercy we should spend all our time publicly and privately worshipping God."

"Q. 61. What does the fourth commandment forbid?
A. The fourth commandment forbids failing to do or carelessly doing what we are supposed to do. It also forbids treating the day as unholy by loafing, by doing anything in itself sinful, or by unnecessary thinking, talking about, or working on our worldly affairs or recreations."

And lastly,

"Q. 62. What are the reasons for the fourth commandment?
A. The reasons for the fourth commandment are these: God allows us six days of the week to take care of our own affairs; He claims the seventh day as His own; He set the example; and He blesses the Sabbath."

Doesn't this sound familiar?

This has lead me to a disenchantment with this denomination, (along with their views on the role of women... but that is another thread! Maybe I will pursue that at another time... :-))

Blessings and Grace always!

Grateful for my Continual Sabbath Rest!
Cindy
Patti
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2000 - 6:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can understand your concern, Cindy.
I have found the same in the Methodist church.
I have never heard anyone quote Hebrews 4:9 in reference to the fulfillment of the shadowy sabbath in Christ except us former SDAs.
But, on the bright side, sabbathkeeping is rarely, if ever, encouraged in either of those denominations, despite what the catechism says.

Interesting that you found that.
That was not Presbyterian USA, I gather...
Cindy
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2000 - 6:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jtree, Hi! Thanks for the post above...
Yes, I too, want the LORD to be my Shepherd. I need HIM to restore my soul daily!
I need HIM to guide me in paths of righteousness for HIS NAME'S sake. Dwelling every day! in the house of the Lord, forever....

Always in debt to His Grace,
Cindy
Steve
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2000 - 6:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Cindy,

How sad to hear about James Boice. I heard him speak only a few times, but thought he was a great man of God.

I have Donald Grey Barnhouse's volumes on Romans, which is still considered a classic work on the Gospel of the Reformation. (I believe it was Barnhouse who said, in regards to theology, "Let's get the hay down out of the loft onto the barn floor so the cows can get at it." He had quite a mind for bringing theology to the laypeople. It was his, and Walter Martin's work in Questions on Doctrine that helped pave the way for me to even be in the church.)

I agree with you that SDA theology sounds so much like Catholicism that it's amazing. As I've studied more about sabbath, and reasons for keeping it, it seems more and more that keeping the sabbath is one of the primary "signs" we SDAs have used to determine whether someone really loves Christ.

Unfortunately, we have tended to take Jesus' words about loving Him and pointed back to the OT law, rather than looking at His fulfillment of that law and creation of another covenant, not based on what we do, but on what He has done.

As one pointed out above, our actions speak volumes about what we believe. My actions in this life are exceedingly sinful. Keeping the sabbath (and dietary laws) has never addressed the much deeper issues going on in my heart and mind.

If the sabbath command stands as a literal command, then so do the literal requirements of the sabbath. Those requirements would have me literally kill my son when he participates in making a fire at Pathfinder campouts on sabbaths. Since I can't bear to kill my son, I must realize that something (Someone) is far greater is at work than just the letter of the law.

I can't even keep the other 9, as Jesus so clearly demonstrated. Literally, I can. But according to the Spirit, I can't. Therefore I need Him. The sabbath is the same. It should point me to Him. Anything less than Him is a disgrace.

Steve
Sherry2
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2000 - 8:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

THE SABBATH BLESSING IS PROMISED IN CHRIST. HE DIED FOR OUR SINS, MAKING RECONCILIATION BETWEEN GOD AND SINFUL MAN COMPLETE. IS THERE STILL A SABBATH BLESSING? YES...IN JESUS CHRIST...THAT IS WHY THERE IS HENCE THE GREAT COMMISION TO PREACH THE GOOD NEWS. PAUL PREACHED JESUS AND HIM CRUCIFIED EVERYWHERE HE WENT. HE NEVER EXHORTED THE SABBATH, EVEN TO THE GENTILE POPULATION. HE EXHORTED CHRIST - BECAUSE OF CHRIST, WE NOW HAVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE COMFORTER, COUNSELOR,...ALWAYS WITH US...JUST AS IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN, GOD RESTED AND COMMUNED WITH HIS BEINGS, SO NOW HE DOES AGAIN THROUGH THE SPIRIT. WE HAVE ATTAINED AN EVERY DAY SABBATH DAY BLESSING THROUGH AND ONLY THROUGH JESUS CHRIST AND HIM ALONE! HE ALONE IS WORTHY OF PRAISE AND HONOR. HE IS OUR ETERNAL SABBATH REST! YOU TAKE AWAY FROM THE GLORY OF JESUS CHRIST, WHEN YOU EMPHASIS SABBATH-KEEPING WHICH WAS A SHADOW OF THE REALITY FOUND IN CHRIST. PREACH JESUS AND HIM CRUCIFIED. LISTEN TO HIM. I WANT TO TELL YOU THAT I LOVE HIM AND YET IT IS BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED ME THAT I HAVE FOUND SUCH LOVE. I ADMIT MY POWERLESSNESS TO SAVE MYSELF, BUT HE LOVED ME WHILE YET A SINNER AND DIED FOR ALL MY SINS TO RESTORE ME INTO A RIGHT RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM. THANK YOU JESUS!
Sherry2
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2000 - 8:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti, I think it is that way for some Presbyterian churches in usa. I just sent for info. from a local one, and it was chucked with 10 commandment sentiments. I was surprised...I did e-mail Dale Ratzlaff about which churches he'd recommend...He recommended Evangelical Free, or Evangelical Covenant, or Christian & Missionary Alliance...as of recently in "Christianity Today", the last one is going through a change..perhaps split...due to no longer ordaining women as elders....just so you know...anyhow God bless those who are searching for a new church family.
Sherry2
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2000 - 9:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

According to some, the 10 C's are a moral law. It is also espoused as representing God's character. Well, let's examine that. It does indeed mirror things of the nature of God. It is like a mirror. If I look in the mirror, I see another me. But which is real? The image in the mirror or me? The mirror only reflects...it cannot be me. It is not flesh and bone, or breathing or thinking, etc. Just as the 10 C's reflect God, but they are not God. He is so much more than the reflection. Let's not get caught up in the reflection when the King of kings came to earth so that we could see Him personally, up front, and in the flesh and spirit.
Cindy
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2000 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To all interested...
In the above post, I was quoting from the Presbyterian and Reformed Church's Westminster Shorter Catechism...

The Presbyterian churches I've attended have been the PCA variety (Presbyterian Church in America). I think Bill Twisse mentioned once he has been a member of this denomination for a number of years. I've wanted to ask him about it for awhile...

Any comments, Bill? If you read this out there in cyberspace...

As ever, in debt to His Mercy Alone,
Cindy
Bruceh
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2000 - 11:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Will i get Cursed.

Some say it is OK to keep the Ten Commandments and
the Sabbath and not come under the curse.
Let us see what the Bible says about this.

Malachi 4:4 4 Remember ye the law of Moses my
servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb
(Sinai Ex 34:27-29) for all Israel, with the
statutes and judgments.

1.) So the Law of Moses that was given at Horeb
(Mount Sinai Ex 19:23-25 Ex 20:1-17), as well as
the statutes and judgments

Deut 4:10-13 10 Specially the day that thou
stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when
the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people
together, and I will make them hear my words, that
they may learn to fear me all the days that they
shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach
their children.
11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain;
and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst
of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick
darkness.
12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst
of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but
saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which
he commanded you to perform, even ten
commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of
stone.

2.) So the Covenant that was given at Horeb
(Sinai) was the Ten Commandments that were written
on two tables of stone.

Gal 4:24-30 NKJV 24 which things are symbolic.
For these are the two covenants: the one from
Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is
Hagar--

3.) Hagar represents the Old Covenant from mount
Sinai or Horeb which is the Ten Commandments,
which gives birth to bondage.

25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and
corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in
bondage with her children--
26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the
mother of us all.
27 For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren, You who
do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are
not in labor! For the desolate has many more
children Than she who has a husband."
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children
of promise.
29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh
then persecuted him who was born according to the
Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say?
"Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son
of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of
the freewoman."

4.) Cast out Hagar which is the Old Covenant or
Ten Commandments, as well as her son which is the
Works of the flesh.

Now the Scriptures are clear
1.) So the Law of Moses was given at Horeb (Mount
Sinai Ex 19:23-25 Ex 20:1-17), as well as the
statutes and judgments.
2.) So the Covenant that was given at Horeb
(Sinai) was the Ten Commandments that were written
on two tables of stone.
3.) Hagar represents the Old Covenant from mount
Sinai or Horeb which is the Ten Commandments,
which gives birth to bondage.
4.) Cast out Hagar which is the Old Covenant or
Ten Commandments, as well as her son which is the
Works of the flesh.

Now what if we disobey and not cast out the
covenant given at Mount Sinai or Horeb what will
happen.

Deut 27:15-26
15 `Cursed is the one who makes a carved or molded
image, an abomination to the LORD, the work of the
hands of the craftsman, and sets it up in secret.'
And all the people shall answer and say, `Amen!'
THIS IS THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
16 `Cursed is the one who treats his father or
his mother with contempt.' And all the people
shall say, `Amen!'
THIS IS THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
17 `Cursed is the one who moves his neighbor's
landmark.' And all the people shall say, `Amen!'
THIS IS THE BOOK OF THE LAW
18 `Cursed is the one who makes the blind to
wander off the road.' And all the people shall
say, `Amen!'
THIS IS THE BOOK OF THE LAW
19 `Cursed is the one who perverts the justice
due the stranger, the fatherless, and widow.' And
all the people shall say, `Amen!'
THIS IS THE BOOK OF THE LAW
20 `Cursed is the one who lies with his father's
wife, because he has uncovered his father's bed.'
And all the people shall say, `Amen!'
THIS IS THE BOOK OF THE LAW
21 `Cursed is the one who lies with any kind of
animal.' And all the people shall say, `Amen!'
THIS IS THE BOOK OF THE LAW
22 `Cursed is the one who lies with his sister,
the daughter of his father or the daughter of his
mother.' And all the people shall say, `Amen!'
THIS IS THE BOOK OF THE LAW
23 `Cursed is the one who lies with his
mother-in-law.' And all the people shall say,
`Amen!'
THIS IS THE BOOK OF THE LAW
24 `Cursed is the one who attacks his neighbor
secretly.' And all the people shall say, `Amen!'
THIS IS THE BOOK OF THE LAW
25 `Cursed is the one who takes a bribe to slay
an innocent person.' And all the people shall say,
`Amen!'
THIS IS THE BOOK OF THE LAW
26 `Cursed is the one who does not confirm all
the words of this law.' And all the people shall
say, `Amen!'
THIS IS THE WHOLE COVENANT GIVEN AT HOREB AND
SINAI (ALL THE WORDS OF THE LAW) THIS IS THE OLD
COVENANT AND IF YOU TRY TO KEEP PART OF IT BUT NOT
ALL YOU TAKE ON THE CURSE.

DEUT 12:32 32 "Whatever I command you, be careful
to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take
away from it.

THE OLD COVENANT COMMANDMENTS #454,455 SAY YOU
CANNOT TAKE AWAY ANY OF THE LAWS IN THE BOOK OF
THE LAW, THEY ALL COME TOGETHER, THAT MEANS THE
TWO GREAT COMMANDMENTS AS WELL AS THE SACRIFICIAL
SYSTEM AND THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. IT IS ONE BIG
COVENANT.

JAMES 2:10 10 For whoever shall keep the whole
law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of
all.

THE WHOLE LAW IS THE OLD COVENANT GIVEN AT SINAI.

So if you think it is ok to keep this Old Covenant
and you do not have to cast out Hagar, then pray
that God will not give you the curse that he has
promised he will give unless you obey all.

Bruce Heinrich


BH


BH
Colleentinker
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2000 - 12:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darrell, I'm going to take a stab at your question of whether or not God removed the blessing from the Sabbath.

First, the fourth commandment refers to creation when it says in Ex. 20:11, "Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

I believe that the blessing God placed on the seventh day at creation still stands, and it always will. The seventh day of creation was the day God rested because his work was done. His creations were perfect, and his humans were spiritually alive and connected to him continuously. The creation Sabbath had no ending, according to Genesis 2:2,3. There was no "evening and morning." God and humanity lived in unbroken Sabbath rest; they were one with each other.

When God gave the fourth commandment, the Sabbath day was a reminder that humanity's initial condition had been to live in perpetual rest in God. It was also a symbol of the restoration of that Sabbath when Messiah would come and restore spiritual life to men and women.

For the duration of the Old Covenant, the seventh-day Sabbath pointed toward the fulfillment and restoration of Sabbath rest in Christ.

The blessing on the Sabbath day in the fourth commandment, I believe, is the blessing God gave Sabbath rest at creation. That rest is the Christ-follower's legacy; we now have living souls connected to Jesus by the Holy Spirit. The observance of the day was a shadow and a symbol of that eternal rest and oneness.

That blessing, I believe, was never and will never be removed from the real Sabbathnot the shadow Sabbath of time, but the reality that is found in Christ.
Patti
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2000 - 4:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Very good, Colleen.
Thank you.
Djconklin
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2000 - 5:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen Colleen!

In an email that I recently received one (non-SDA) writer wrote: "We obey the law in its fulfillment, i.e. we strive to be Christians, or Christ-like. Errors abound when Christians attempt to approach the law without understanding that our only approach to the law is through its fulfillment, Jesus Christ. ... [we should show people] the Christ of the law and implore them to imitate Him by the power of His Spirit."
Lydell
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2000 - 5:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DJ, perhaps you should go back and read again what Colleen said. Our striving is not in "striving to be Christians" but in having relationship 24 hours a day every day of the week with Jesus Christ. That is, we take our sabbath continually in the perfect Sabbath Rest, Jesus, not in the observance of A day or of the law.
Cindy
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2000 - 6:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,
I think you explained the Creation REST beautifully! It was planned to be an unending holy communion with God at Creation and now has been gloriously filled-to-the-full in Christ!

This Unending Rest with our Creator after He Finished His Work of creation was to be unbroken. When sin entered, this Sabbath Rest was later,(in the Old Covenent), prefigured and looked forward to its' fulfillment in Christ...

We who have BELIEVED in the FINISHED Work of the New Creation in Christ have entered that Unbroken, Unending REST in JESUS, the only true Sabbath to rest in.

Grace always,
Cindy
Cindy
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2000 - 6:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell,
Hi!
Amen to your comments. Blessings to you!

Grace alone,
Cindy
Djconklin
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2000 - 8:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DJ, perhaps you should go back and read again what Colleen said. Our striving is not in "striving to be Christians" but in having relationship 24 hours a day every day of the week with Jesus Christ. That is, we take our sabbath continually in the perfect Sabbath Rest, Jesus, not in the observance of A day or of the law.

Lydell, the words "striving to be Christians" are not mine. I take them simply to be another way of talking about our relationship with Christ and against our sinful natures. Our relationship in Christ is a rest in that it is He who sanctifies us and not we ourselves. The keeping of the seventh-day Sabbath is simply the outward sign that God has asked us to make of our committment to Him.
Darrell
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2000 - 11:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bruce, how can you apply old covenant curses to new covenant beleivers in Jesus Christ? Don't forget that the same Paul who said "cast out Hagar" also said "Let no one judge you . . . with regard to . . . a Sabbath day", and "he who regards one day as special does so to the Lord". Perhaps some sabbatarians may curse you for abandoning the Sabbath, but don't assume that is true of all.

Colleen, thanks for your reply. Of course the blessing of resting in the finished work of Christ "as long as it is called Today" is greater than the rest of the weekly Sabbath.

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