Archive through July 10, 2000 Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 1 » Did Jesus break the Sabbath? » Archive through July 10, 2000 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Djconklin
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann,

While it is possible that you misunderstood it is just as likely that I didn't say it very clearly. I don't use the "norm" to determine Biblical truth nor do I consult creeds or doctrines to determine what I should believe. I can't help what others around you believe, say, or do--I don't use them to determine what I should believe nor do I use them to judge whether or not an entire organization is corrupt. My response to Patti was to point out the absurdity that someone who is outside could tell what all of the those inside believe--her quip was kind of like the aetheist claim that there is no God (How would they know? Did they check the every knook and cranny of the entire universe all at once? Of course not.).

David
Colleentinker
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 12:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Adventists hold hugely varying interpretations of doctrine. The private reality of what Adventists learn and practice and fear and believe is usually quite different from what Adventists publicly proclaim to believe. This phenomenon is one of the reasons the Christian community in general has trouble perceiving the true nature of the SDA church. They're a moving target.

I have only recently "left" the church. I know that what Patti says the church teaches IS still being taught. I also know that there is debate among the church members about the nature of Christ.

One doesn't have to be recently an SDA to know what SDA-ism teaches. But the fact that the official proclamations of its teaching varies and changes only underscores the deceptive nature of the organization. If it were truly proclaiming TRUTH, its doctrines and interpretaions would not change.

Anyone who has been an Adventist for any length of time, regardless of how long they've been out, knows what Adventism teaches. If they don't know the latest spin the officials are putting on things, that doesn't change the real reality of what people are being taught at home, in sermons, in Sabbath School, in Bible classes, etc.

A great example of the changing "spin" of Adventist doctrine is the Sabbath as the Seal of God. It's probably fair to say that all of us learned at one point that the Sabbath was the true seal of God.

About two years ago I was interviewing people for a news story regarding a pastor who had been fired in the Oregon Conference. I actually had a conference official tell me that Adventists do not teach that the Sabbath is the Seal of God. It's the Sign of the Seal of God which is the Holy Spirit.

Do you realize how twisted and confusing this new spin is? Really, nothing's changed in what the church requires. But they've made that doctrine a moving target to avoid the legitimate arrows of criticism which Bible scholars could fling at them.

No, one doesn't need to have been a recent Adventist to know what Adventism teaches. The fact that it now has new spins only incriminates its teachings more deeply.
Maryann
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 1:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WELL SAID!

Maryann
Djconklin
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,

I don't know of any SDA's who "fear" anything. So, maybe it's just a question of what kind of people you've been around.

And it's highly possible that there is some variability in the beliefs in the chruch as a whole. That could be due to several factors ranging from incomplete conversion from former beliefs, intransigence, ignorance, laziness (it does take more than some work and most people have been turned off to studying because of the lousy job our educational systems have done on the matter), poorly expressed beliefs, being poorly educated to begin with, or (my favorite beef here) not being taught how to study the whole Bible properly and thoroughly to begin with (note how many here poo-poo'ed the study of Col. 2:16-17 prefering instead their beloved translations). I have often believed that with a sophisticated enough questionairre one could show that no two members in any church (excluding small cults) have the same "picture," if you will, of God and thus each are worshipping a different God! It is even possible that there may be more than one reason for each individual. One doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to realize that there are many, many possible reasons why people hold various beliefs.
Maryann
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 3:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi David,

I was under the impression that the gospel was so simple that a child could understand it.

If that is the case, what you said:

"That could be due to several factors ranging from incomplete conversion from former beliefs, intransigence, ignorance, laziness (it does take more than some work and most people have been turned off to studying because of the lousy job our educational systems have done on the matter), poorly expressed beliefs, being poorly educated to begin with, or (my favorite beef here) not being taught how to study the whole Bible properly and thoroughly to begin with (note how many here poo-poo'ed the study of Col. 2:16-17 prefering instead their beloved translations)."

That takes the simplicity out of the Bible?

Many poorly educated people have understood the gospel. I'm banking on a lot of non-theologians being in heaven and even more that didn't have a chance to read what those great theologians!

If one has to depend on the "proper" education of either themselves or the people that present the gospel to them, I think the gospel has gotten complicated, cold, hard, muddy, muddled and of something other that God.

Sorry for that very long, improper and un-edu-ma-cated sentence. Somehow, I just don't see that, that will effect my relationship with God or my understanding of the gospel.

Thanking God for the simple gospel.....Maryann
Patti
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 5:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann,
Certainly you are right.
Jesus Himself said that unless we are converted and become as little children we will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

As far as SDA beliefs are concerned, I find it quite unexplainable, if what David says is correct, that there are many and varied beliefs on salvation, on the nature of Christ, on the relationship between faith and works--all the things that are vital to our salvation. Certainly nothing is more important than salvation!

SDAs cannot seem to come to unity about the nature of Jesus Christ, yet they are in agreement about the inspiration of Ellen White. Seems to be a severe lack of proper priorities here...
Jtree
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DJ,

Is the Adventist church perfect?
Cindy
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2000 - 7:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Djconklin, In response to the discussion on Adventism and what some of them fear...I would have to say that I have encountered members who ARE fearful of whether they will 'be ready' when Jesus comes, and also fearful of not 'witnessing' enough. I am currently still a member of a more grace-oriented S.D.A. church...and yet, these fears I've heard from some. I think this is inherent in the theology.

Perhaps you have encountered only the more confident ones 'on-line'-- because you wrote on another thread:

"I've been an at home Christian for 10 years now. It was precisely because of the "sandpaper" Christians who don't study that helped drive me out of the church. I keep in spiritual shape by studying the Bible in-depth and by dialoging with others online--"

Perhaps some of these 'christians' in the S.D.A. church who don't study are fearful of seeking truth outside of the commentary of EGW!! or else are confident of their OWN righteousness,not trusting in Christ's Righteousness Alone! I can't imagine not wanting to study the Bible to learn more about JESUS! He has got to be the Focal Point of all Scripture...

As ever, in debt to His Mercy Alone,
Cindy
Cindy
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2000 - 7:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, I agree totally with your posts on how there are new 'spins' in Adventist theology. I have been closely involved in many evangelistic series... Depending on the evangelist, certain 'truths' are more EMPHASIZED than others. S.D.A.ism endorses both the more 'hard-line' evangelistic teams and also the more 'kinder, gentler' approaches. This alone is enough to give me schizophrenia! In the end, though, they all come down to the same Remnant triumphal theology...

Blessings to you Colleen!!

Always a debtor to His Mercy and Grace,
Cindy
Djconklin
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2000 - 4:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joshua,
>Is the Adventist church perfect?

Nope.
Djconklin
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2000 - 4:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cindy,

>Perhaps you have encountered only the more confident ones 'on-line'

Nope, I was referring to my hometown church and other SDA's I've met elsewhere--I don't know of any SDA's online.

>Perhaps some of these 'christians' in the S.D.A. church who don't study are fearful of seeking truth outside of the commentary of EGW!!

Actually most of them don't even read EGW.

>or else are confident of their OWN righteousness,not trusting in Christ's Righteousness Alone!

Based on my observations of them and listening to them I doubt it. How about the 1888 Message Committee--they're very committed to Christ Righteousness alone--which btw, is what I was always taught (but then again I've never been to Souther Calif. either! ;) )

>>I can't imagine not wanting to study the Bible to learn more about JESUS! He has got to be the Focal Point of all Scripture...

AMEN!
Jtree
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2000 - 6:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Djconklin,


DJ> Nope

Since it's not perfect, would you mind telling me what those imperfections are then?
Cindy
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2000 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DJ(David), I'm glad you see Jesus as the focal point of Scripture...

What group of S.D.A.'s don't even read EGW?... the 1888 message committee group? I haven't kept up with that group, but last I remember they were out to show how EGW endorsed the Righteousness by Faith message of Jones and Waggoner of 1888 fame?

I'd be interested to know who else you converse with on-line besides us. Maybe you already mentioned and I missed it?

Also, how would you define a true Seventh-day Adventist? What type are you?

Grace always,
Cindy
Sherry2
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2000 - 9:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are many SDA's I do know who do not read her writing. My hubby is one. But they still consider her inspired and some even a prophet. I've talked with 8 from church in the last month - 6 of which do not read her but still consider her inspired, and 2 that do read her. I do think there are many Adventists who do not really understand what their church believes as a denomination. And unless you've gone to the church schools for your upringing, many do not even understand 1844. They just know it was the Great Disappointment, and E.G.W. had visions and things got cleared up...there was a logical reason for it and God explained it..and that is all some know. That is how it was for my folks who were not raised SDA. We discussed E.G.W. this week, and my mom apologized for me for not making it clear to me that she did not feel Ellen was a prophetess, and informed me that because she had an understanding of salvation before coming to the church, that she felt guilty so often from reading her stuff that she didn't read it any longer because it didn't bring her closer to Christ but discouraged her. However though, she would often buy from the Conflict Series to give to our non-Sda christian friends for Christmas, etc. It was interesting to hear that. If any of you haven't read my prayer request, because of the testimony of Dale Hand (which is here in the Stories of FAF) were so stirred, they are studying like crazy and may consider leaving the church as well. My father, like me, hasn't known the assurance of salvation for these 20 years. He is tired of the guilt and tired of the constant inconsistencies. Please pray for them and that they will know the Gospel again, and have the confidence and joy of their salvation because of Jesus' blood shed for them.
Cindy
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2000 - 9:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry, yes, I agree there are MANY S.D.A's who don't read EGW's writings; and yet, if you try to discredit her views they defend her as an inspired prophetess of God... And even if you do go to all Adventist schools, as I did, most can not explain with confidence the intricacys of the 1844 schematic doctrine. It never made sense to me (the investigative judgement).

I will be praying that your parents will be open to the Holy Sprit's leading into the all-sufficient, all-surpassing Grace of Jesus. May we ALL continue to trust in HIS Righteousness Alone!

Grace always,
Cindy
Breezy
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2000 - 11:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My dad has always preached Righteousness by Faith only. I have recently started questioning him about things such as IJ and he told me that the way most adventists have been explaining it is wrong( just as you all point out). The way he has always preached the IJ is a time to show all peoples that God played out history in the most fair and humane way possible. Not that we will all have to come up for judgement at the end. We are saved now, and he has never preached anything different. It is mistaken ministers and misguided people in the church that have taken the doctrines and abused them. In that way I guess you all are right about the adventists. Please write back and let me know your perspective. Also Patti I am reading your book online and my kids are starting to get resentful. My 2-year old keeps climbing onto the kitchen cabinets and getting into the cupboards.(That means I'm totally wrapped up in your book, very addictive).
Thanks for a good read.
Patti
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2000 - 4:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Breezy!
Glad you are enjoying the book!
Only I didn't write it. It is Pat's book. But then it is mine in a sense because she is my mother.

Better superglue that child's feet to the floor before you read next time! :) (Aren't 2-year-olds great? And then they turn 15!)

One comment about the IJ. I am so happy that your father teaches salvation in Christ alone. However, God was proven just and righteous and holy at the cross. How much more "fair" could God be than to come to the earth, fulfill the law and the prophets in our behalf, and He Himself die for the penalty for our sin?

Well, folks I am off on a 4-5 week road trip to 7 or 8 different state conventions. Which means I may or may not be able to be online for some time. So in case I cannot get online, may God keep you all safe in the hollow of His hand.

Grace and peace always,
Patti
Lori
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2000 - 2:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is in response to the statements about Adventist that don't 'read' EGW.

My dad says he doesn't 'read' EGW.....however, he studies the S.S. lessons!!!! (He reads EGW, it's just in quarterly form, instead of book form) If your Adventist contacts sit in on an adult S.S. class they read EGW once a week. (I flipped through one of the S.S. quarterlies from this winter and counted about 3 to 4 EGW quotes per 1 scripture.) SDA's get scripture but it's so heavily diluted by EGW that they might as well not be. It's really sad, that a church so proud of their scriptural knowledge produces so many members that are scripturally illiterate and so blinded by their arrogance of being in the 'remnant' church, that they reject every real truth that passes their way.

I would be interested to know what you come up with in regard to S.S. lessons and classes in your questions to Adventist who say they don't read EGW.

Lori
Maryann
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2000 - 3:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Lori,

It is sure nice to see you pop up!;-)) Hope you have the time to stay a while!

I for one, was so proud of my Bible knowledge that I thought that the poor un-informed, non-SDA was a cripple. Did I ever get a shock to find out that I knew just about zip. Your observations are right on the money.

Maryann
Colleentinker
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2000 - 8:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, Wendy--

Yes, there are many Adventists who say the IJ is about us "judging" or "vindicating" God by choosing to serve him and showing the universe that he can be trusted. Then, they say, we'll review all his decisions during the millennium so we can see he's been fair.

There's something terribly twisted about this view. God is sovereign. He has never revealed the whole big picture to humans. He is not required to. We, the creatures, are not capable of judging the Judge. We are limited, sinful, and comparatively powerless.

When we become alive spiritually, we can trust God and love him in spite of our not knowing. We can trust him because we know him. But our trust isn't for the purpose of vindicating him. To whom do we need to vindicate him?

Satan wants us to think he and Jesus are equal opponents. Our playing a part in vindicating God to the universe is part of the deception that says He has a legitimate and equal foe. He isn't in a contest to prove he's better than Satan. Satan is defeated. God is trying to save our souls, not save his reputation!

Colleen

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration