| Author | Message | ||
| Breezy |
Colleen, I do not see anything twisted about it. If you truly believe that He is sovereign and all-powerful then why do you limit Him to our simple understanding of His motivations. He is not held to our realm. He does not choose to reveal his methods and allow us to review the history of the situation because He has to vindicate or justify Himself. He does it because He is so fair, He is so just. If He can lower Himself to become as low a lifeform as a protozoa is to us, why cannot He who is the personification of humility, allow His motivations to be viewed by all races of the universe? To me this is simply in keeping with the awesome God who did everything for me, and gave all for me, even though I could do nothing in return. We should never limit God's nature to our own human nature. With love and respect, Wendy (have YOU seen Max?) | ||
| Breezy |
Colleen, P.S. At the time when He does reveal Himself, we will no longer be lowly,sinful creatures. We will be saints perfected, wearing Christ's Robe of Righteousness and will be fully deserving of partaking in the full joy of all God has planned for us. (And I place no limits on that either!!!) Grace to you! Wendy | ||
| Steve |
Hi Breezy, I agree that God's purposes and motives will be viewed by all creation to be seen. However, I think (correct me if I'm wrong Colleen) that Colleen is saying that the point in SDAism that is "twisted" is "so that we can see he's been fair." The problem with that is the possibility that God has not been fair (read "just".) I really believe that those who will be living eternal life will not have any question but that God was and is fair and just. (I personally have a problem with the word "fair" because I think that from our human ways of understanding that God's "fairness" may not seem at all fair to mere mortals. God's grace, for instance, is not "fair", but I'll accept it any day over what we humans would consider fair!) Agree with you Breezy that "We should never limit God's nature to our own human nature." (Max is OK as of last Sunday. Computer and/or other related issues.) Steve | ||
| Colleentinker |
Thank you, Steve; you correctly interpreted what I meant. I do believe that we will have all history at our disposal to review when we are finally physically redeemed. But I agree, Steve, that we humans cannot possibly know what's "fair" on this earth because we're too limited. Being able to review all history when we reach eternity and to understand why God did what he did, however, is not the same as having an investigative judgment in which all human's decisions and God's responses are exposed for evaluation to prove that God is just. The way I have heard this concept explained is that we humans will vindicate God to the universe by our reponses to him. We humans are not here to judge or vindicate our Judge. Yes, God is merciful and just. But God's sovereign place in the universe is not based on our proving or declaring him to be just. We play no part in Jesus' victory over Satan and his accusations. Jesus alone has defeated Satan's claims and deceptions, and we are the beneficiaries of his victory, not his defenders. Furthermore, the actual, official doctrine of the IJ is not about vindicating God. That's been introduced recently to soften the problems with the official IJ. The official teaching still is that the names of all people began to come up for review beginning in 1844. God is now "completing his work of atonment" (GC president Jan Paulsen's words in his sermon last Sabbath at the GC session in Toronto). Atonement is not complete until the IJ is complete. (Yes, Max is OK. He'll be back eventually!) Praising God for his completed atonement, Colleen | ||
| Breezy |
Colleen and Steve, This way of thinking cannot have been introduced recently to soften the teaching of the IJ. My father became a pastor in 1966 and preached for 30 years exactly what I told you. What he told me is that error has come into the church in the understanding of many doctrines the church holds and there will be a small remnant who will remain true to the correct interpretations. Satan has always planted people(angels) withing churches(all)to try to sabotage God's plans. But God can always change evil for good and always wins. Just because there is no real competition between Christ and Satan does not mean that God won't let Satan's line play out a little before He reels him in. Did you read my above post carefully? I said God doesn't need to show us the plan of mercy, but He chooses to because of His infinite mercy. This is a mercy that allowed my husband to walk out of court today a free man, even though Satanic agencies tried to imprison him on false charges that we have been fighting for 3 years. Satan tried to get the judge to give my husband 2 years in prison, even tho' his innocence has been proven over and over. But God prevailed as always and my husband came home with me today. Through this miracle my husband was finally able to see the plan of salvation at work in his life and accept the free gift of salvation. For the first time in our 3 year marriage he was able to see himself clothed in Christ's righteousness and kneeling at Christ's feet and praising Him. Never before has he been able to trust God enough to believe that salvation is a free gift, his for the taking, and obtainable for him as well as everyone else in the world. Praise the Lord for His wonder-working power! God is Good! All the time! All the time! God is good! A witness to his grace, Wendy | ||
| Cindy |
Wendy, Good morning! Praise God for what GOD has been doing in your husband's life; I will pray that he will continue to grow more in the knowledge of Jesus and live IN GRACE each day. I still think the IJ puts the Focus on US, OUR 'vindication of God's character', OUR response to his gift of grace is what will finally silence Satan's claim that God is unfair. It is subtle, but it is still there! And I also have lived among the more grace-orinted approaches to the IJ teachings. And they have been toned down from EGW's writings to teach a more compassionate God... and yet, they still fall short of a totally Resting in what Jesus did. This doctrine still teaches an incomplete atonement...as Colleen has mentioned they are teaching as late as this last G.C. session... Colleen, Amen to your statement, "Jesus alone has defeated Satan's claims and deceptions, and we are the beneficiaries of his victory, not his defenders." Grace always, Cindy p.s. To their credit, I notice that the G.C session voted in a resolution on the BIBLE, urging members to study it, also! I don't know how this came about, but I read it was voted on in the business session late Friday afternoon, the last Friday of the session. Perhaps the reality of voting only the Ellen White study resolution had made them realize where the priorities seemed to be placed. So I think this was a good step... Although, from my experience, it seems when you give EGW the 'inspired' commentator role over Scripture, you still end up with HER having VETO power over your own Holy Spirit-led interpretaion of Scripture and Jesus being our final 'authority.' And of course, The S.D.A. church remains with their statement that "HER WRITINGS ARE A CONTINUING AND AUTHORITATIVE SOURCE OF TRUTH, WHICH PROVIDE FOR THE CHURCH COMFORT, GUIDANCE, INSTRUCTION, AND CORRECTION." (Fundlemental Belief #17) This 'belief' ends by saying that her writings "also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested." To me, this is saying two contradictory things... Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Bmorgan |
Hi Cindy, Don' give them credit. I almost got fooled myself, but I checked out the website and listened in on the discussion about the resolution about the spirit of prophecy. Read the comments, and see this was a FORCED proposal. BMorgan (Transcript of discussion removed because it is copyrighted material. If you wish to refer to material on another site, just put the web address in your message. This is very interesting stuff. -Richard) | ||
| Sherry2 |
Where's the website for this? Man, this just makes me ill. My husband keeps trying to convince me that I can be SDA and not believe in EGW, but look at this! No way! Can't have one without the other. Where on earth does the Bible teach a prophet(ess) will come in the last days and everyone should follow that instruction too? What makes me ill too is despite me realizing she is a false prophet, there's that tug of condemnation that comes in to tell me maybe I'm wrong...Oh Lord! Hold me up in Your strength, and help me in my unbelief. I am weak but Thou art strong. Lord, please give me an extra dose of Your strength, and continual affirmation from Your Word to show me I am indeed doing the will of the Father. Thank you Jesus! Continue to break the bonds that may hold me and I don't even realize it, and break the bonds for every Sda who is honestly searching you. | ||
| Breezy |
Sherry2, I know that I am strong enough in Jesus Christ to be an SDA and still have a mind of my own. I do not need to allow the SDA GC to control my thoughts and beliefs. Satan has infiltrated the church to the highest levels of authority.But, we cannot let this drag us down. If I have a certain belief of the level of EGW's inspiration or non-inspiration, noone can force me to believe otherwise. It is the same as this forum. I retain a belief in EGW that while it is not anywhere near what the GC proposes, is certainly greater than most on this forum. Yet, I do not have to change my views about her just to fellowship on this forum. The same is true for churches. We should have the ability as was said in the transcript above, to not believe in EGW at all, and to proclaim that academically. If individuals in the church harass you, you can know that they are led by Satan not God. You stay strong in what you believe to be true. You retain your beliefs, not those of the GC or even me or others on this forum. The key is to think for yourself. Luther fought hard for that. Cindy- Thank you for your prayers for my husband. Truly God has worked an incredible miracle in our lives. This time this morning I could have been thinking about how I wouldn't be able to touch my husband's tear streaked face for two years. Now I never have to be seperated from him again. Not for eternity. Praise you Jesus! God Bless all your lives, Wendy | ||
| Colleentinker |
Wendy, I may have missed something you might have posted earlier, but I did not know you and your husband were facing such a terrible thing as a possible sentencing for something he didn't do! I'm so sorry you both had to go through that! And I'm praising God right now for making truth to be known. In fact, one of my most recurring praises is that God reveals truth to me (to all of us!) in his own way and in his own timeórelentelessly, surely, and gently. For many years I was an "evangelical Adventist" with beliefs about EGW much like yours. I believe God used me during those years to help speak the truth that He was unfolding before me even then. You are certainly welcome to fellowship here whether or not you believe EGW to be a prophet! I'm delighted that you're one with us in Christ! I praise God that he never leaves us, that he works out His will in our lives, and that he never stops teaching us. It's absolutely amazing to me how the truth sets us freeóand that phenomenon seems to be progressive. Thank you for posting the discussion from the SOP resolution meeting at the GC, Bmorgan. You're right about the resolution regarding scripture being an afterthought brought about by some people's concern about emphasizing EGW more than the Bible. That had really concerned me when the story came out last week during the GC session. Colleen | ||
| Cindy |
BMorgan, Thank-you for posting that! It was very sad, but informative to show how much belief in EGW is part of S.D.A.'s very reason for existence." Ive always heard things like this: "If we are to preserve the unity of this church, the worldwide thrust of its mission, and the vision that God has given to our pioneers to take the gospel to the entire world and hasten the coming of the Lord, we need to have an increasing focus on the use of the counsels of the Spirit of Prophecy both in our individual lives and in the community life of our church, so that every church hears the same trumpet sound. It is true, and we must not forget, that we stand rooted in the Word of God; but it is also true that the lesser light is no less important." (John Fowler) Where is the unity, the vision, the thrust of our mission and focus to be on... but Christ crucified for us!?? The above discussion also shows how much the Internet is making inroads in revealing the whole story of EGW... Blessings to you BMorgan! Good for you in posting your story, also, in the begininng 'stories' section recently. Thanks. Grace always, Cindy p.s. BMorgan, I think you might like to read the latest issue of 'Christianity Today' magazine (July 10, 2000). I have had a subscription to this mag. for many years; I think you can buy it in Christian book stores or else other large book stores. There are some very good articles in this issue. One entitled "Praying for Hope" by Nancy Guthrie reminded me a lot of your story and the loss of your baby. (For those who haven't read it yet, Bmorgan posted her experience on the 'Graveyard and Resurrection' thread of May 20, 2000 at this site. It is very moving). God's continual presence with us in the midst of horrible circumstances is a concept I need to meditate on always... BTW, the Executive Editor of 'Christianity Today' and his wife, David and Lavonne Neff are former Adventists. He was either an Adventist pastor or teacher years ago; has been with 'Christianity Today' for many years now. | ||
| Cindy |
Lori, You are so right about the Quarterlies! Just in May,2000, it (again!) wrongly identified EGW and her writings as the 'Testimony of Jesus'... And did you read the above post where James Zachrison said: "...they can rest assured that we are dedicated followers of the writings of the Spirit of Prophecy and that while they may not find statements from Ellen White on every page, the material developed to be studied in our churches around the world reflect what the Seventh-day Adventist Church believes regarding the Spirit of Prophecy. So when you study your Sabbath school lesson on Sabbath morning, please rest assured that it has been carefully worked through and studied in the light of what we understand in the Spirit of Prophecy." No matter what is said about the supremacy of Scriptures, the fact of the matter is that the quarterlies have "been carefully worked through and studied in the light of what we understand in the Spirit of Prophecy". If you have the final word in an inspired commentator, why question anymore if you ever see a problem between her writings and the message of free grace in Jesus? I thought everyone would be interested in this from the 'Hope International' newsletter of May 2000. (This is the Ron Spear S.D.A.--remnant of the remnant-- organization based in Eatonville, WA.) They are asking for money--goal of $28,000- to help the Spanish believers know more of EGW. The appeal follows: "Have you read the TESTIMONIES or any of the 52 books in the 3 Volume Set Spirit of Prophecy Library by Ellen G. White lately? If you have not read and shared these books with others, would you consider yourself a wise virgin with oil in your lamp?" "The Lord knew that the last generation would need another tool along with their Bibles to give them that spiritual boost to keep His faithful few traveling in the right direction." "You will find that by observing the Spirit of Prophecy there is food for the soul--a most nutritious desert sufficient to keep the soul from being weighed in the balances and found wanting." "The Lord has placed a spiritual blessing within our reach! Having once tasted the Spirit of Prophecy collection yourself, only then will you appreciate this powerful tool to highlight those important lessons of Christ found in your Bible." "Kindly, let us be thoughtful and share the Spirit of Prophecy Library with our Spanish brethren as we praise the Lord and claim the promise, 'I have stuck unto the TESTIMONIES: O Lord, put me not to shame!' Psalm 119:30-31 A debtor to His Mercy and Grace Always, Cindy | ||
| Cindy |
Colleen, Yes, I see, too, how God leads us gently to Rest more and more in His arms, His Amazing, All-sufficient Grace! Blessings always to you! Cindy | ||
| Sherry2 |
Cindy, can you post where you obtained that information from that is above? I like to search these things myself in order to share accurately with others. Thanks! Sherry | ||
| Steve |
BMorgan, Potent stuff. I also would like to know the source (I've only received one GC Review during this session. Doubt if they'd allow that to be printed in the Review, but I have no doubt that the discussion actually happened.) Steve | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Cindy, Where in the May 2000 Quarterly is that statement; "identified EGW and her writings as the 'Testimony of Jesus'" BTW, did you get my e-mail the other day? Maryann | ||
| Cindy |
Sherry2, Hi! I'm not sure which part you're asking about. I think you're right in checking things out for ourselves. The quotes from Fowler and Zackrison I had just taken from BMorgan's post. I should check out the website for these, too! These are actual transcripts, right? I had just read from www.atoday.com on the general report from the meeting, and did not read this. I know you can read some proceedings at www.adventistreview.org Go to that and click on sessions and proceedings. But I didn't see the above posted yet. Bmorgan or anyone? The Hope International news letter is: PO Box 940 Eatonville, WA 98328-0940 Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Cindy |
Maryann, I tossed my quarterly, unfortunately; but am fairly sure it was in there around Wednesday, May 17 or 24? Read it and see if I was mis-interpreting what was written... Yes, Thanks for you e-mail! Very interesting how God has been with you. I'll try to respond soon! Always by grace, Cindy | ||
| Bmorgan |
Hi Cindy, Sherry, Steve, The website address is the one from Patt's post http://www.adventistreview.org/2000-bulletin4/actions-proceedings.html] At this site, you can find the resolution for scripture. Yes, it was an afterthought. It was presented Friday July 8, one day before the end of the session. BMorgan http://session2000.adventist.org//news/data/2000/6/963077658/index.html.en Adventist is "sola scriptura" | ||
| Bmorgan |
Cindy and Y'All, Thanks much for listening (reading) my testimony. I am thankful for this forum. What a great place for us-abused, brain-washed, cultified, deceived, to come and rest. I appreciate all the support, encouragement, love and acceptance that is so demonstrative here. You folks are great. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is....(Whatever you choose to insert) I cannot help but share some comments I had from an adventist group where I posted my story. I have been a member of the group for two years. Is it time to get OFF? Dear Erma: My first question to you is; how did you get on our mailing list? Secondly, if you now nterested in becoming Adventist why are you writing on this forum? I understand your dilemma as a Seventh-Day Adventist. God's standards are so high and so true. But I believe whatever God ask of us, he able to give us grace to live up to all the light He has given us. Your rejection of the Adventist message is not a rejection of the church as it is a rejection of God's last day message. You may feel free as a bird right now. Maybe it's because Satan has you right where he wants you. Happy and content in rejecting light. I don't agree that we are similar to the Catholic church in saying that this is God's church and God's last day message. Noah had a message for his time. It was truth and nothing but the truth. Other's may have had some truth but it wasn't the truth for that time. Other churches may have some truth that they can contribute. But if it's not according to the "law and testimony," there is no light in it. You say you know all the message of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. But there are some things that you have missed. We are a Christ-centered church. I can prove for the fact that it only had to be Christ to have changed my life. He is the life and hope to me and to my church. Satan hates this church because of the last day message. He uses people like you to come in and get a misunderstanding and leave out and talk against the church. The most effective people are the ones that have been in the church and have left. Please do not come on our list to sneak a message against our church. I can appreciate your opinion. But what you say has no affect on me because I know whom I have believed in and am persuaded that He will keep me. I have found this church to be like no other. It has nothing to do with what people have told me, but what Christ has shown me in His life and death. He is a wonderful Savior. Following sometimes may go against our nature, but He can take care of that. I will be praying for you and asking God to help you understand HIS truth for such a time as this. Here's another: Erma! I'm so glad that you realize that you are ccepted and loved of God. This was His intent before you were ever created in your mother's womb. Because you are no longer an SDA doesn't mean that He loves you less or more. He is the same, yesterday, today and forever. We are the only ones who change. To disregard truth and say you have found God is a contradiction. The bible says "the truth shall set me free, thy word is truth. If these or the other church you have chosen to attend teaches truth as it is taught in the bible God bless you. Otherwise, you will receive the curse of those who disregard God's law. His law truely is a reflection of His character. If you saw hypocrisy, hatred and all the rest of the evil of human nature than the more time beholding the lovely character of your redeemer is what you and I and everyone who professes His name should be doing. Mrs. White and the early pioneers of the SDA church did not study EGW to know God, they found Him in the scriptures just as you and I must do. If you put EGW before the bible that was your choice. Nowhere does she or the bible teach that we should do this. God judges us by our own relationship to Him, not by what others are doing. I say this only in love. Regardless of where you are your heavenly Father is watching over you with more love than you can know. Just accept His gift, full and free. You are His beloved child. |
