| Author | Message | ||
| Ritchie |
Dear Cindy, The "oops! -- make that 1844!" in my previous posting was intentional to drive home the very point that you bring up. I've already read Ratzlaff's book Cultic Doctrine and I am currently finishing up Sabbath in Crisis. Thanks for the validation. | ||
| Breezy |
Cindy, Isn't it possible that the early writings you quote were during a time that God was using Ellen and His blessing was upon her. Then perhaps she fell to the sin of pride( which I personally see alot of in later writings)and God abandoned her. I don't think that her early writings were useless because of this. God does not hand us everything on a silver platter. We do have things to exercise spiritually such as discernment. When people(including her) say that either all her writings were from God or all from Satan, I believe that that is a clever device of Satan to make of none effect her writings. Perhaps if we didn't listen to this deception her writings would not be of none effect, just carefully scrutinized to discern the good from the bad as in every other writer. I don't care if she did say that the testimonies were inspired. I saw other times later when she repented for writing those things and embarassing people and causing them to leave the church. Please read "Out of Africa" on aToday. It details a time when Ellen perhaps hadn't succumbed and condemned the GC for it's refusal to accept the righteousness by faith message. She predicted that the church would take the fallen path it has. Now through you and others in this ministry, the RBF is being massively preached throughout the world and Jesus will come because you(and hopefully me) are going to do the work that should have been done 112 years ago. I am thrilled to be a part of spreading the gospel the way it should be. Let's go rescue some more people that are so busy trying to get ready for heaven that they don't focus on accepting a relationship with Jesus. I believe that this is the straight testimony that was predicted to come in the very end. Not more "Diets and Foods" or "Testimonies" but the straight truth of the gospel!Let's go! Wendy awakened! | ||
| Cindy |
Wendy, Hi again! I am inspired by your desire to follow Jesus and to spread the gospel of grace...I definitely want righteousness by faith to be preached everywhere also. And yet, I respectfully think Christ's coming is not dependent on US faithfully spreading the gospel. Yes, it will be spread, but by His Holy Spirit and in His sovereign time! We can gratefully acknowledge our sinfulness, accept His Righteousness Alone and rest in the Finished Work for us at the Cross. If it is truly GOOD NEWS for us, we will want to lead others to it! And yet, I still don't think His times are in OUR hands...our times are in HIS hands! As far as the earlier writings of Ellen White compared to later writings being more prideful, I'm really not too sure. I'm kind of kicking myself now for getting rid of all my EGW books; I could still use them for reference! At the time, last summer, I just wanted to simplify my life and actually disposed of hundreds of books. I still have many boxes of OTHER books in storage, but those are ones I liked! I have heard from much of the heirachy that EGW GREW in her knowledge of Christ's work and that her LATER writings were actually More Grace-centered! Again, I have not studied the dates she wrote things, but this idea would go against the idea she was more humble and used of God at the beginning of her prophetic career and later succumbed to pride. Is your dad still pastoring? He sounds like a believer in grace and I'm sure he has traveled an interesting road as an Adventist pastor... and Colorado must have been a great place to live... Grace always, Cindy P.S. Wendy, I would really like to get some references where Ellen White apologized for anything she wrote! I have read only the opposite, I'm afraid. Also, I have a good friend who looks on Ellen White as an "inspired writer' like Luther, Spurgeon, etc. Not necessarily a person who you must believe everything they say, but one that you can pick the good parts and discard the rest. My problem with this is that I think she claims these writings are from God and if they are anti-God in their message, she is a liar... I have been much more enormously blessed (consistently!) by Luther's, Spurgeon's, and other's writings (Even another Christian woman writer contemporary of EGW's time period named Hannah Whitall Smith).They have not had to claim angelic visits and the need to give out specific testimonies to rebuke the saints. Of course they have pointed out sin and our need for an all-sufficient Savior, but their whole tone and focus is different, it seems...I guess the key is her claim to be a specific messenger from God... Blessings always to you! Again, can you post where EGW regretted or took back anything? Thanks! | ||
| Cindy |
I don't have a subscription to 'aToday" magazine, but did find the article Wendy mentions by going to their web site: www.atoday.com and going to the 'Latest Electronic Issue, Mar-Apr 2000. Click on aToday extras, "Out of Africa" by Dennis Hokama to read the expanded version than is printed in the magazine... I guess we can comment on it on the other thread started early this morning entitled, "Atoday article, Out of Africa".... Grace to all, Cindy | ||
| Breezy |
Cindy, I am at work on this as I write. I have traveled so many egw sites lately that it might be hard to find. I have 3 kids so after 9pm pst will be the best time to check for my posts. I know we'll get to the truth of the matter tho'. ps Colorado isn't done justice by any of the songs. It is truly majestic! Your sister in Christ, Wendy | ||
| Sherry2 |
Wendy, you may have missed a quote on another thread from Ellen's writings...here goes: in Spiritual Gifts Vol 1...pg. 136 (and many before and after follow this theme).."Many ministers would not accept this saving message (in regards to 1844 the second coming) themselves, and those who would receive it, they hindered. The blood of souls is upon them. Preachers and people joined to oppose this message from heaven." Statements that "Jesus turned his face from the churches, and bid his angels to faithfully watch over the precious ones who did not reject the testimony.." I have a letter from Ellen's home church stating that she was not disfellowshiped due to preaching Jesus' second coming...the Methodist church preached that itself...they were opposed to the date setting because that goes against Scripture! Period! I was told that only this sda movement proclaimed Christ coming. Now that I've read the works of others like Spurgeon, etc. I find that others preached Jesus' Coming. But it was the time setting that was wrong. And yet she said they had the blood of souls upon them. That is wrong and she proclaimed herself to see Jesus turn his face away from other churches. That does not add up to my Bible. Honestly, from the get-go I see no other way around it..she was a false prophet. Several years ago when I was attending a charasmatic church, I could not make heads or tails of whether this "Slain in the Spirit", "Holy Laughter" was of God or not which launched me into a full scale Bible study examining what it says about the tests of a true prophet. I was entirely shocked to find myself testing egwhite by those Biblical standards. I believed in her whole heartedly, even though I felt hopeless and condemned most of the time (I figured that was my problem - I just had to surrender more to Jesus).....and then the very tests from Scripture that lead me away from the charasmatic church (not that there aren't good ones per chance - but definitely not the one I had attended) , those Scriptures pointed to the truth about her falseness. You cannot be a true prophet and a false one...talk about something that can almost deceive the very elect! I never thought that would speak so loudly of egwhite. This is what I have learned though. Just think about it. God bless. | ||
| Breezy |
I have to research it but I do know that there are fallen prophets. Read A.T. Jones letter on www.ellenwhite.com. While he acknowledges that she had divine revelation, he clearly states that she is a false prophet. She made the mistake of claiming inspiration for everything she said or wrote, which disqualified her as God's servant. Read about the testimonies that everyone else in the denomination got or were published, but the person of whom they were written never received a copy. Believe me I am definitely on a different side of the fence than when I first started this forum. Bless you! Wendy | ||
| Breezy |
Sherry2, The references I and the article talk about are not 1844. They are the 1888 Righteousness by Faith message that EGW did not receive but endorsed. It's a little different but I understand what you are saying about 1844 for sure. Wendy | ||
| Colleentinker |
Ritchie, welcome to the forum! Wendy, I remember reading an article (I don't remember who wrote it, but Richard downloaded it from the internet a couple or three years ago) by a woman in a New England church during Ellen's early days as a prophet. She and James were not yet married but were travelling together from church to church teaching her visionary truth. (By the way, Dale Ratzlaff said when he was doing his research for Cultic Doctrine he found that Ellen and James travelled quite a bit together before they were married, and Ellen's parents were unhappy with them and urged them to get married so they didn't appear improper.) The woman who wrote the article tells that she wanted to observe Ellen in vision. While they were outside visiting, Ellen went into vision. During her vision, James would say to her, "Do you see such and such?" and Ellen would respond, "Yes, I seeÖ" and proceed to explain whatever it was James had suggested. This went on until James was finished giving her "ideas" and listening to her confirm them from her vision. When James was done, he brought her out of her trance, and things went on as before. I also read quotes from some research being done by a party who has been compiling similarities between EGW and Josehp Smith. According to sources this party used, (I no longer have the manuscript and can't remember where she got these quotes) Ellen said that sometimes she feared that she hypnotized herself. At any rate, I personally don't believe she started as a prophet of God. I remember being taught as a child that Ellen herself said the most effective deception is to mix a little bit of error with truth. Wow! Wendy, I continue to pray for you. I praise God for bringing you here, and I know you are in his hands. Love in Jesus, Colleen | ||
| Breezy |
Thank you Colleen, I really feel like I've been brought into a family. I'm very happy to be here too! Cindy, The 1888 story is on www.ellenwhite.org/egw57.htm I am going to read it now. I think the issue for me is fast becoming not if EGW was a prophet, too much is suspect, but rather focus on that I want to now concentrate on spreading the pure, true, gospel, and making sure I have defined to my satisfaction what that is and what God's will is for my life. The 1888 message is part of what I feel I need to read and determine the truth about. The more I read about Ellen the more I realize that if I obsess either way, for or against, I am wasting precious time that I could devote to God. In which case she truly is a false teacher. Let me know what you think about the article. Also this site has other good references. God Bless! Wendy | ||
| Breezy |
Okay, I think I have it straight! Ellen's writings for the first 45 years were very non RBF even tho' when Jones and Wagonner's message came out she tried to claim that she had preached it and just failed in communicating it effectively. Following both of them writing two books on RBF her writings followed with Steps to Christ and Christ's Object Lessons and Desire of Ages. All very Christ centered comparatively speaking. It seems very likely that she latched onto it after them and took her ideas from them, even tho' later on she condemned Jones and claimed he had fallen from the throne of Christ's righteousness. Fallen from grace. Seems likely the other way around. Ever seeking for truth, Wendy | ||
| Ritchie |
Hi, Breezy! I couldn't help notice your observation on how EGW 'seconded' the teachings of Wagonner and Jones around the time of the 1888 GC meetings. I've always taught my Bible students that SDA doctrines were the result of Bible research and were only acknowledged or 'sanctioned' AFTER the fact by EGW because of a 'vision' or message from God. My point was to teach that SDA teachings are based only on the Bible and not EGW. This was only half the truth as I later found out. I now believe that the real reason she did not originate any of the 'landmarks' or SDA distinctives is because she had none! There is an unmistakable pattern in her writings where she enters the picture AFTER someone else first introduces an idea, doctrine, or teaching. You can actually test this yourself in just about every subject she writes about. For example, Walter Rae in White Lie points out how numerous ideas, sentences and even whole paragraphs from J. N. Andrews and Uriah Smith ended up in The Great Controversy (see p. 222) The very first time I literally stumbled across 1888 baggage, I was ecstatic! My initial reaction was 'You see, Mrs. White DID preach grace to the church after all but was rejected by those in leadership'. I actually concluded that the reason God raised a prophet in the church was to teach the truth about righteousness by faith. Now that I have a clearer understanding of her life and ministry, even her role in 1888 is suspect. She does it again -- promoting an idea AFTER someone else! | ||
| Cindy |
Dear Wendy, Thanks for the information on where to get the original 1888 Message. I'll check it out... If you can still look for where EGW apologized for anything or took back anything she wrote, I would appreciate it. Thanks! When you get time! :-)) I'm amazed you get the time in at the computer that you do. Did you say once that you had 5 children? Or were you watching a few more besides your own!? :-)) Also, I like what you wrote: "I think the issue for me is fast becoming not if EGW was a prophet, too much is suspect, but rather focus on that I want to now concentrate on spreading the pure, true, gospel, and making sure I have defined to my satisfaction what that is and what God's will is for my life." I, too, think we can obsess too much on the whole EGW 'problem' and lose our main focus on how wonderful JESUS is! (Though I will admit it is something we have to study and come to terms with for ourselves; since it has been so ingrained in our minds and thoughts.) But, to just to show how S.D.A.ism (E.G.W.ism) is wrong is not enough!! We must offer the positive Gospel!! I like especially what Patti wrote once, (Hi Patti!!) "the Gospel is the only reason to leave SDAism. Just to leave because they are wrong often leads one into merely looking for another "true church" or some other kind of "truth." The Gospel is not that SDAism is wrong. It is that Jesus Christ is the Truth." Amen!! Finally, I would submit that we do not need to go back to 1888 or any other period in recent history to find the "true RBF Message"!! Not that it might not be presented again here as it has through the centuries... But, and I feel quite strongly about this... we have the FULLNESS of the message presented in the Apostolic preaching of the Cross of Christ!! Here is the true Righteousness by Faith message that is to be the one to judge any others by!! This message of Christ's Complete and Final Work FOR US can not be added to, or improved upon!! Colossians (as well as the whole New Testament)is wonderful in showing the Supremacy and Finality of JESUS CHRIST! HE is the Final WORD on Righteousness by Faith. We do not need a further 'revelation'... Paul says in Colossians 2 that his purpose in teaching is: "that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may KNOW THE MYSTERY OF GOD, NAMELY , CHRIST, IN WHOM ARE HIDDEN ALL THE TREASURES OF WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE. I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments...." I love that! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| George |
To all, I stopped believing EGW was inspired when it became obvious God was changing His mind all the time. To think that God couldn't figure out what He wanted to say and get it right the first time was very disturbing. I did not not want to believe that God WAS NOT the same yesterday, today and always, so EGW had to go. No mater what else is said about her good or bad, she can't go around changing God's mind!!! George | ||
| Susan |
Hi George, I can totally relate about giving up on Ellen. When I was a kid I always questioned the SDA teachings that originated with her (and I usually got in big trouble for it!). Stuff just seemed to contradict the bible all the time. Know what I mean? I'm talking from a kid's point of view here. How could a mighty God that parted the Red Sea, be wrong about certain things? Their (SDA) teachings just didn't make good sense. As an adult, I believe that Satan is the author of confusion. Anyway, I just praise God for the power of His holy word!!! When I was lost and prayed for help, which I believe was the prompting of the Holy Spirit, the God of the bible is what came to mind. You see, I didn't recall any SDA teachings. Only the awesome stories of the bible. I believed that if God could do such amazing things throughout history, then perhaps He could help little me. And you know, He did. I also had a very clear feeling that I should NOT go back to an SDA church. George, I just think it's a testimony to the power of God that we would have a sense of false teaching. It's truly a blessing that God would give us the desire to follow after Him alone! BTW, did you ever read my last response to your post last week? I forget where and when (a thread that had something to do with faith?). You usually just have great comments to follow, so I was wondering if you ever read it? In Christ, Susan | ||
| Darrell |
"The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish." Prov. 29:18. Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remnant people in the true testimony. He will bring in spurious visions, to mislead and mingle the false with the true, and so disgust people that they will regard everything that bears the name of visions, as a species of fanaticism; but honest souls, by contrasting false and true, will be enabled to distinguish between them." Has this prophecy been fulfilled? I say it has, in the same way that the prophecy of Caiaphas in John 11:49-51 has been fulfilled (" . . . it is better for you that one man die for the people . . ."). Yes, it looks like Ellen has fulfilled her own prophecy. | ||
| Breezy |
Amen to all said above! Cindy, I agree with you about the Gospel. The reformation and what is happening now regarding RBF only came about because people continually forget what is really important,Jesus alone! Ellen no matter what she said, continually pointed people to her for their salvation, and condemned them if they questioned her. Bad medicine! Oh and by the way, I only have three kids of my own, I was watching two.Thank God! Quite frankly since I found this forum and have learned so many things, I haven't spent the time with my kids that I should. So this is something I must change. I am still trying to find that retraction,and since I saved a gazillion things on the computer I have reams of papers to go thru. Will find it tho'. :) Ritchie, I started to do the same thing as you because I've just now started to realize the truth about Ellen. What I had to do was bite my lip and get past that horrid gut feeling that if I didn't have EGW I wouldn't be saved. Hard to admit 'cause I didn't think I was suckered that bad, but true. I also read an essay last night about how she may have had a seizure disorder, which made alot of sense. Darrell, I think you are right. This is the fulfillment of the prophecy. God is not going to let someone remain untouched who has abused His word so massively. I have to go to work before I get fired! God Bless us all abundantly! Wendy | ||
| Sherry2 |
And when you read the message to the Thyratira church in Revelation - boy does that read like the sda church...that amazed me when I read it with new eyes! | ||
| Patti |
Hi, Folks! I am on the road. Right now I am in Topeka, KS. I am going to conventions from state to state peddling my books and I am staying with my oldest and dearest friend here who was also raised SDA. Actually our mothers grew up together also (SDA). So we go way back. (almost 40 years) It has been interesting, because she left the church in her teenage just because she had no desire to do all the required works anymore. She has not been open to religious discussion in past years because she didn't want to revive the guilt. But since we have been here, we have talked quite openly about, the Gospel about salvation in Jesus Christ alone and I am greatly encouraged. Her eyes are opening and she is becoming able to let go of the immense load of guilt that she has carried from birth. Please remember her in your prayers. Cindy, thank you for your kind comments about my remarks. Your words are always a blessing to me. The rest of you are doing a wonderful job. I miss my daily communion with you on this forum, but this will not last forever. (Just a month.) I will be here sporadically until then. May God keep you in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on Him, because you trust in Him. With affection, Patti | ||
| Sherry2 |
What books do you sell, Patti? |
