| Author | Message | ||
| Breezy |
Could some of you read the article in atoday called Out of Africa? What it seems to say is that EGW condemned the GC in 1888 for it's refusal of the Righteousness by Faith message. If one believes this then that would lead to alot of explanation for the sad state the SDA church is in today. Who knows what would have happened if they had just preached the gospel truth originally. The EGW estate has tried to cover up that she wrote anything of the sort, but as you always have said, God preserves His truth. I see the ministry this site and others are doing (against GC wishes) as the chance for the RBF movement to be spread around the world the way it was originally intended. God gave the light of the RBF to the Adventist church in its infancy, and just like israel it refused to listen. Read the article carefully. It states clearly that the 1888 message was a message of grace alone-no works, and was rejected by the heierarchy because it appeared to contradict what EGW had said earlier. Please write with your thoughts about this. To me it feels like a missing puzzle piece. Praying God will continue to guide us into all truth~Wendy | ||
| Cindy |
Everyone, Hi! If you don't get the magazine, like me, you can go to the web site www.atoday.com and go to the 'Latest Electronic Issue', Mar-Apr 2000. Click on aToday extras, "Out of Africa" by Dennis Hokama to read the expanded version of what was in the magazine... I read it once, but will try to go over it again. I know already that I have some disagreements with the views of Weiland and Short! This is the first time I've ever read any of their beliefs... One scary statement they wrote was that "our conscience is bound by the clear testimony of the Spirit of Prophecy"; and another, that "Ellen White does not contradict her own testimony" wow! I guess that sets the tone... It seems they try to prove their brand of Righteousness by Faith as the correct view of the 1888 G.C. Session and fully endorsed by EGW. Apparently, this view was rejected by the church, but Weiland and Short stated they had "complete confidence in the triumph of the SDA Church and its' eventual repentance." To me, their brand of RBF is suspect! It is again the 'great controversy' theme in which WE are the ones who will finally vindicate God's character. If we had just grasped this in 1888, and fully trusted in this RBF message, we could be home with Jesus years ago! Yes, this RBF is all by faith, but is a MIXING of Christ's work alone FOR us and the Holy Spirit's work IN us, our loving response to Him, so showing the universe this final demonstration! This is a unique RBF message that could only be preached since Jesus entered the Most Holy Place and started that ministry in 1844... this special RBF message was fully proclaimed in 1888 by Jones and Waggoneer and fully endorsed by EGW (so Weiland and Short propose..) I still think the Message of the Cross is all about JESUS! The Gospel is Christ Crucified for us! It is NOT in the making of us more wholesome, moral, upright people. It is not in OUR praise or even in our prayers... It is all in Christ, what HE has done and what He has Finished!! This message of the Cross is still a scandal!! The offense of the Cross is not that God 'helps us', but that it is ALL CHRIST! It goes contrary to our belief in human ability and the notion of merit... And, no matter how pious and spiritual it sounds, to MIX our life with Christ's Perfect Substitutionary and Sacrificial Life for us is not the Good news of the Gospel. It will tend to focus our attention inward (especially this end-time, final group of believers trusting God totally--and so showing the universe, finally, that THEY can live in the RBF way, by fully allowing God to take over their lives! I submit that we always, always! need the objective work of Christ in our behalf for any security we have! I know this may seem like nit-picking, but I feel it is a subtle attempt to take the Glory off JESUS and put it, however humbly presented, on US! As I've heard before, it is either a 'Theology of GLORY' (presented by Satan himself)... or it is a 'Theology of THE CROSS'!! This distinction between objective and subjective understandings of the atonement needs to be made always! As John Stott writes, "The message of the atonemnet is not to be found in OUR penitence worked by the sight of Calvary, but rather on what GOD did, when in Christ on the Cross, He took our place and bore our sin." THIS ACT OF GOD BY WHICH HE DECLARES SINNERS TO BE RIGHTEOUS IS BY GRACE ALONE, THROUGH FAITH ALONE, BECAUSE OF CHRIST ALONE! "Turn your eyes upon JESUS. Look full in HIS wonderful face...And the things of earth will grow strangely dim, in the light of HIS GLORY AND GRACE!" Because of HIS Mercy always, Cindy p.s. I guess I was getting a little worked up! :-))) How do others see this? Thanks, too, Wendy for bringing this up for discussion. Blessings to you! | ||
| Breezy |
HI! I think the best thing to do is read the original works of 1888 and Wagoneer and Short both.I didn't get the same thing you did and I would rather go straight at it from a perspective that assumes nothing. I got the impression fully, that it was a grace only message. Others afterward might interpret it to include us not just God, but I am sure they were pointing to God only. If anyone knows how to find these works please write me at hvnlybrz@netscape.net. God Bless ! Wendy | ||
| Cindy |
Good idea, Wendy, to look at the real Jones/Waggoner 1888 message... Do we know where to find the originals!? The above was my take on what was written in the 'Out of Africa' article... Wendy,I love your e-mail address! Breezy is your nickname? What do you like to go by the most? Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Breezy |
Cindy, I get a feeling that the original 1888 message is locked in a vault somewhere but I think we can find Wagoneer and Short on www.ellenwhite.com. Thanks! My nickname has been breezy since I was 7 years old and one of my dad's church members( my best friend's dad) kept calling me windy instead of Wendy. Then he said I was just like a cool summer breeze, which naturally led to breezy. It has stuck ever since. My e-mail came from trying to personalize a name that reflected my desire to center my focus on heavenly things. If I could tell you my password here it would amaze you how well Richard did with finding one that was in keeping with and truly added to the theme. Thanks again Richard. Well I'd better spend some time with my kids before they go to bed (or disown me)lol. Take care, Wendy ( prefer this as call name :) ) | ||
| Cindy |
Wendy, Good morning! I just spent some time at the site you mentioned above wwwellenwhite.com looking for the original 1888 message, but couldn't find it. What heading did you find it under? That site is the OFFICIAL website of the Ellen White estate. If anyone cares to wade through it, there is a section on 'Comments Regarding Unusual Statements Found in EGW Writings', the EGW Estate's answer to statements negatively protrayed by those who want to discredit EGW. They say they are statements 'taken out of context' or 'apparent' discrepancies. All the same stuff I've heard for years... After reading for an hour, my only thought was weariness.. and "Just give me JESUS!" Grace always, Cindy p.s. There is also a site for those interested that has an article by Dirk Anderson in it called "Excuses, Excuses..." pertaining to these defences of EGW supporters. It's at wwwellenwhite.org Probably good for us all to read BOTH views about her to form our own opinions... And yet, I sometimes think it can bring me down to focus so much on her. I still think the message given by the White Estate is that you need to believe in EGW as a Prophet to be included as a true follower of Christ (and His True Remnant Church). Again, this is Jesus...PLUS something... Not Grace Alone...Christ Crucified for me! I still say that this gospel message of the Cross is THE ACT OF GOD BY WHICH HE DECLARES SINNERS TO BE RIGHTEOUS BY GRACE ALONE, THROUGH FAITH ALONE, BECAUSE OF CHRIST ALONE!! Praise God, Jesus is sufficient for all that I may need for salvation eternally... and for 'holy' living now! I guess at this stage in my life I really want my Focus to be on Christ and the message of the Cross! He really is Enough! Grace alone, Cindy | ||
| Breezy |
Cindy, I think that the site I found 1888 at, was www.ellenwhite.org not.com. A.T.Jones was one of the men that brought the RBF to the GC. I've never been able to find an actual document, just stories. I think Ritchie has spoken of 1888, he might have more info. The official Ellen site is www.whiteestate.org. I did a search of all her writings by typing in 1888 and Righteousness by Faith, and came up with quite a list so you might want to explore that. They put quite the different slant on it than others. Hope this gives you something to work with. His Grace Alone, Wendy | ||
| Cindy |
Wendy, I just checked out the site you posted above as the 'official' Ellen site-- www.whiteestate.org and it is the very same site as www.ellenwhite.com They are both the same "OFFICIAL Ellen G. White website" (put out by the EGW Estate, just under two different website addresses.) The www.ellenwhite.org site is the one that is billed as the 'unofficial' site, and is the one that has many interesting (although unfavorable) views of EGW presented...I wonder how many other sites are out there in cyberspace? Always in grace, Cindy | ||
| Cindy |
Wendy, I just looked at www.ellenwhite.org and clicked on the 'article index' area down to E.J. Waggoner's 1916 views and statement on the Investigative Judgement. Very interesting! So, did he apostasize from the church? I know so little about that history... There's so much to read at this site by just going down through the 'article index' area! Like I said before, I've never really cared to look into the 1888 message... Have been too interested in the time period of the Apostolic Preaching of the Cross!! But if you have the time, this is interesting site for more background into the world of EGW...and as posted above, you can go to the other sites for the EGW Estate's views and commments... Grace alone, Cindy | ||
| Patti |
Greetings, Since the topic is 1888, I thought I would post what I have found. This is a website put up by an SDA. I hate to be a disappointment, but from my reading and study so far, it seems to me that the "Gospel" of 1888 was just more legalism. It sounds very much like Roman Catholicism; it is not about the forensic and objective work of Jesus Christ for us, but about the regeneration that will happen IN us. Just more of the same... URL: http://gospel-herald.com/wieland/brief%20look/brief_index.htm WDYT? Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Steve |
Hi Patti, A number of years ago I read some material written by Robert Weiland and Donald Short. (They have a ministry that revolves around the 1888 message.) They were attempting to show the difference between the SDA version of justification by faith and the Protestant verson. In their attempt to shoot down the Protestant idea, they sounded absolutely Catholic. Last year I read an interesting book, Crosscurrents in Adventist Christology, by Eric Claude Webster. Eric's son, John Webster teaches theology here at La Sierra University in Riverside, California. In this book, Webster documents the Christology of EGW, Ellet J. Waggoner, Edward Heppenstall, and Herbert Douglass (Douglass really shows Adventism for what it really is, although the others have their problems too.) In relation to the 1888 message, it became clear in reading this book that EJWaggoner, who played a major role in Minneapolis, was no better off than any of the other Adventists up to that point. Quoting Webster, he says: "Just as physical healing brought restoration, so forgiveness of sin would bring an eradication of evil from the heart and life. This power of Christ in the heart would bring about sinless living, perfect obedience and the conquering of all lust, for Christ would do the obeying rather than man." "While Waggoner accepted that the corruptible and sinful body would remain with us until the end, he believed that God would demonstrate His perfection in man through the indwelling Christ. This demonstration of God's power and ability would be seen in a group of people before Christ returns at the end of time." (p. 204-205.) It appears that even the "great" message of righteousness by faith talked about at the 1888 conference was nothing but warmed over Catholicism. Patti said: "it is not about the forensic and objective work of Jesus Christ for us, but about the regeneration that will happen IN us. Just more of the same..." That is exactly what the SDA 1888 message is. Just more of the same. Steve | ||
| Breezy |
I'm sorry guys but I don't see it that way. I read through the article and I think you are getting semantical. "it is not about the forensic and objective work of Jesus Christ for us, but about the regeneration that will happen in us. Just more of the same..." It is, simply put, a description of what happens when we accept what Christ has done for us. You all know the physics lesson that for every action there is an equal reaction. That is all they are describing. We accept Christ's grace>our actions,not of our own accord,reflect Christ's work in us. Nothing I've read gives me the feeling at all that they believe it is anything we do that saves us. Very much it is about what Christ did to save us. This is not warmed over Catholicism. Look at the rituals and acts that Catholics must perform. Lighting candles and paying money to help save a dead loved one. Consuming Christ's dead body and blood. Doing harm to one's own body as absolution for sin. Nothing like this in the 1888 message. Go to a Catholic or Episcopalian service and see the difference. Maybe some Adventists wrongfully perceive what salvation is about. But let's not nitpick and slap their hands when they might at least begin to get on the right track. We are all at different learning points and are not to be discouraged. I believe that the Adventist church is not a stagnant entity, at least not the laity. Even if the "governmental" segment is completely off base, there are those that are rising up within, not without, the Adventist church, and will support what is right. The tides are changing and what was will not always be in all sectors. We must allow for the possibility that even tho' we may harbor resentment for past wrongs, God is still at work in this body of believers just as He is in all others. God has people in all belief systems. "AND THE GREATEST OF THESE IS CHARITY" All wrapped up in Grace, Wendy | ||
| Cindy |
Patti and Steve, Yes, I agree! (see my above post for July 13, 4:01 where I analyzed Weiland and Short's views). If Weiland and Short think they have the right grasp on 1888, their views are basically that same subjective righteousness, that MIXING of the totally outside of us, objective work of Christ for us-on the Cross!... a mixing of Christ's Finished Work there with our own RESPONSE to that Righteousness... It also seems the 1888 message group still thinks this RBF is a special Righteousness by Faith that could only be preached since Christ's new ministry in the heavenly sanctuary, that started in 1844. Also, a 'Final Generation' will finally!! fully understand and live by this RBF and so fully demonstrate to the universe the true attributes of God; that His ways are just.... This totally goes against the apostolic Finality of the preaching of the Cross, "the faith once delivered to the saints..." Wendy, I like what you said and will try to remember always, "God has people in all belief systems." "AND THE GREATEST OF THESE IS CHARITY" Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Steve |
Hi Wendy, I believe it's more than semantics. I remember once when I went to a community church that had invited a Catholic priest to speak. He explained the veneration of saints, the mass, the rosary, exaltation of Mary, etc. in very Protestant ways and many people left that service feeling like we simply misunderstood what Catholicism is all about. The words that are used are very, very much like the words that we all would use. What it comes down to is the overall and consistent definition of those terms. Without harboring resentment (since I once strongly believed in the SDA 1888 message) I feel that leadership needs to be held accountable for the way these terms are defined. For instance, use the words God, Jesus, Trinity, Holy Spirit, angels, grace, law, forgiveness, blood, atonement (ad nauseum) with a Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Christian Scientist, Hare Krishna, Buddhist, Catholic, Protestant, etc. and you will get as many definitions for those words as you have groups represented. But they ALL use the same words. So there must be something more than semantics going on. When dealing with theological terms, different individuals will invest the same terms with very different meanings. But above all that I've said, you are right, as Cindy has quoted you above: "God has people in all belief systems. "AND THE GREATEST OF THESE IS CHARITY" So even in light of the differences in the meaning of the same terms, we must above all have love for God's children that are to be found in and out of many of the different faiths in this world. Regarding changes in the SDA church leadership, I really believe that the church has taken a number of steps BACK to it's pre-1950's positions on a few things. This can be seen in the rejection of Questions on Doctrine as an official statement of the church. Much sweat and tears went into that work, and the leadership has had problems with it ever since. Wendy, you're a special person and I look forward to continuing to interact with you here. Steve | ||
| Steve |
BTW, I just read some of the earlier posts above. It appears that the 1888 Minneapolis conference documents are not available anywhere. I recently heard someone speaking about that specific topic and it seems that the actual messages of A. T. Jones and E. J. Waggoner are completely missing. What they taught about RBF is mostly gathered from their other writings. I believe that even Weiland and Short, who are so strong on the 1888 message admit that the original messages are not available. | ||
| Breezy |
Hi Steve and Cindy, Thanks for the encouraging words. Since the original documents are missing, I think that we must allow for the possibility that the second,third,etc. versions we have of the message all have their own slants on them. I think that in verity, as Ellen put it, the purity of the revelation they had was truly what you and I believe about grace. Every person that has touched the message has put their own misguided opinion of grace into it. Perhaps back then, they just could not seperate the concept of free grace from the result, godly works. I don't believe that the original message contained that slant. As we know the GC rejected it out of hand anyway. So of course it did not get passed along to the members in any published works. Even if it hasn't come through in purity, I am still encouraged to see God's hand reaching out to the church. God reaches out to us all, full churches and individuals, we can accept it or reject it. Even if the heirarchy rejects truth, we can still practice it ourselves. Even Ellen said that at the end of time, God's followers would be meeting in small groups, not unlike the apostles. This tends to imply, at least to me, that there would be something untrustworthy about the higher branches of the church. We have already seen that the church is ready to sell out to the government in the medical and educational fields, so we must be ready to stand alone. As you can read earlier in my other posts, my church is very small and anti-establishment anyway. So if the conference goes the wrong way, and it has and will again, I am still okay! yay! I'm not worried. God is leading me into all truth, and He will preserve me through all shaking and trials that come upon the world. Steve, I hope you are doing okay. We are praying for you. I feel you and all the others are special too, and I look forward so much to worshiping with you in the presence of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I am so excited because I see Him coming so soon. I think that we need to spread the gospel message with a nevertiring spirit so that as many as possible will have a chance to accept His great gift. I'll meet you soon. All wrapped up in Grace! Wendy | ||
| Breezy |
Steve and Cindy, Read this from Dirk Anderson's site: www.ellenwhite.org/1888/1888-9.htm Just found it interesting that even though Ellen didn't agree with everything Wagonner said, she still supported him as a fellow christian. She said people shouldn't criticize him or even speak against him unless they could prove him from from the Bible. And even then should come to him in love. That's the way I like to think we all handle our differences. Through the love of the Holy spirit. bye for now, Wendy | ||
| Steve |
Hi Wendy, Yes, I'm doing "OK." Things are crazy but God has given me a real peace in the midst of the confusion. I did a study a number of years ago on "peace" and found that Jesus Christ Himself is the peace that passes all understanding. When He said He would give peace, He literally meant that He would give Himself. So even in the midst of one of the most nightmarish trials of my adult life, He is near. And that's amazing, considering that I feel so far from Him in recent times. I know He's holding me and no one can take me out of His hand or the Father's hand. I'm encouraged to see that regardless of the position of the church, you will remain in Christ. Many can't (or refuse to) make that distinction. Especially some in the third world countries where Adventism has really been growing by leaps and bounds in the last 10 to 20 years. In some parts of the U. S. and some parts of Europe there seems to be more who are independent thinkers on a number of issues, and apparently you are one of those. God Bless, Steve | ||
| Breezy |
Steve, One of my favorite stories is one I'm sure you know, it's called "Footprints". Whenever there was only one set of footprints in the sand and you thought you were alone, Jesus says those are the times I carried you. During these hardest times of your life are the times when Christ is closest. His arms wrapped around you tight. One of my strongest qualities is thinking for myself. It has often caused angst in my teen years and in my marriage, but I am learning a temperance that is refining it into a good quality rather than a liability. God Bless you and remember that Christ is our marriage partner when our earthly partner fails us. You are loved. Wendy | ||
| Cindy |
Wendy, Thanks for pointing out that EGW letter found here www.ellenwhite.org/1888/1888-9.htm This is a letter to 'the Brethren' assembled at the General Conference (concerning Waggoner's messages at the 1888 G.C. session.) I read the quite lengthy letter last night and then again this morning to try to really understand it. I respectfully think there are some real dangers lurking there! Granted, EGW has much talk of Jesus, wonderful statements like "The truth as it is in Jesus", and "the truth must be presented as it is in Jesus." These sound so good! Along with open-minded statements from her like "Everyone should feel that he has the privilege of searching the Scriptures for Himself." and "Truth will lose nothing by investigation." And, "Make God your trust, idolize no man, depend on no man." She encourages a openess and kindness in studying Waggoner's messages, saying he has much light and "if he is in error, you should, in as calm, rational, Christlike manner seek to show him from the word of God." BUT THEN, and here is where what I think term "doublespeak" comes in... As it does in so many of her writings! She relates that she had a dream or 'vision' of this Battle Creek meeting two years previously... where "my guide" said that the spirit of God was not the prevailing influence, but more one like that of the Pharisees. And then, somewhat mysteriously, she writes: "Many things were spoken which I will not now present to you." ??? She writes that there is "much light yet to shine forth from the law of God and the gospel of righteousness. His Law will be looked upon as the rule of His government...and many will take the side of transgressors of God's law to escape persecution." Does this sound familiar? She talks of a Brother Morrison who has "many things to overcome, and if he fails to overcome them, HE WILL MAKE A SHIPWRECK OF FAITH, AS DID ELDER CANRIGHT." (emphasis supplied) Help everyone! Did Canright make a 'shipwreck of his faith'!?? I know this is the 'official' denomination statement, but I heard he never gave up his faith in Christ!! (just his faith in Ellen White!) I think this can be researched somewhere, also. Lastly, this letter goes into an area that I have been accused of doing...reading 'infidel' books! I have been told to "throw out" certain books, and also that I am "reading the wrong things." And I see this is where S.D.A.'s could get this idea, from EGW herself!.. ... who previously wrote that "truth will lose nothing by investigation." She warns us never to "touch an infidel book" or "present an infidel cavil"... that many students are being educated by studying and considering objections to the Bible. Satan sows "seeds of doubt" when debaters introduce a "cavil" (I had never heard that word, apparently it means checking out the objections to Scripture from infidel books.) And then comes the REAL truth of EGW as I see her!! She writes, "When Jesus is not abiding in the soul the natural tendancy to doubt, question, and criticize will extend to God's Word , AS WELL AS TO THE TESTIMONIES. and the habit of caviling will ruin the soul." (emphasis supplied) I think that pretty well says it all. All that sound spiritual and pious is not always the TRUTH as it is in JESUS ALONE!! I respectfully submit that she fully intends her testimonies to be taken as from God also; and that to question her is to question God. No matter how much she talks of Jesus and freedom to search Scripture for ourselves, the 'end of the debate' is in her words. I know this sound fairly harsh, and because she speaks so much of Jesus, it has been hard for me to see the deception in her writings. But I do now believe it is there. The final emphasis is NOT on Absolute Free Grace Alone as proclaimed in the Message of Christ's Work Alone on the Cross for us...and interpretated to the believer by the Holy Spirit Alone. EGW is not my interpreter any longer. I praise God for His totally sufficient Word in Christ and the indescribable gift of His Free Grace!!! What do others think!!?? Always standing in Grace Alone, Cindy |
