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Archive through August 8, 2000Chyna20 8-08-00  7:28 pm
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Billthompson
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 7:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,

Thanks for the kind comments above. My focus on testimonies and putting salvation first goes right along with the Bible passage you have so appropriately placed on the first page of this website.

Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 2 Corinthians 3:15-17 NIV

God Bless,
Bill Thompson
George
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 8:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chyna,

I just had another thought, fasting while looking for an answer to prayer is kinda like working for the answer, do you think?

George
Chyna
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 11:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

dear george,

i do not regard it as work :), just an outward reflection of an inward earnestness. i don't think it's so much looking for an answer to prayer but a reflection of sincerity.

chyna
Sherry2
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 8:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey George,

I know that prayer and fasting can become works just like about everything else can when our focus is not on Christ. Recently I went through a prayer and fasting time. What seems to be from the church fathers is an earnestness to seek God's face. I am amazed to see how many times fasting is mentioned in the NT in Paul's writings and others. Seems to be a natural part of their lives. Personally I see it as a reminder that my walk with God must come first - life with it's hustle/bustle...having a time of fasting (whatever fast it is, does not matter - it is between you and God and that alone) and prayer refocuses you, makes you realize once again your dependence on Him (having that belly growl at you really makes you thankful for the food God provides). This last fast for me was simply no desserts and skipping lunches. Here I was dishing icecream to my family every night during muggy weather, and not partaking. Had to laugh at it, but realized that every desire for that sweet gave me an opportunity to open the prayer channel between God and me - which includes being still and listening to Him as well. I really want to learn more about prayer and fasting and study it more. I believe there is much more to learn about it and why it was such a natural part of the apostles' life....and as a side note, did you know that with Sabbath-keeping, fasting on Sabbath was forbidden! I didn't know that till I've been reading over levitical rules and such.

Just my thoughts, Sherry :)
Maryann
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Chyna and Sherry,

My take on what bothers George the most about this prayer thing is that, him like me, have witnessed so many long and drawn out prayer sessions that just repetitiously beg and beg and beg and beg and beg some more after that begging didn't get the desired results.

He figures that there is a point that you need to open your eyes (since they were supposed to be closed while you were praying) and see the answers that God may have given after the first time He was asked?! A lot of times the answer is already there and we don't want to see it.

I think he has a point?.......Maryann
Maryann
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 9:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BTW......easier said than done;-(( I know;-))
Chyna
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 11:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

maryann, like I said i don't really believe it's about the answer i believe it's more about the process. let us just say to each her own, or his own on this matter of fasting.

Chyna
Chyna
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 12:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Acts 14:19-23

But Jews came from Antioch and Iconium, and having won over the multitudes, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead.

But while the disciples stood around him, he arose and entered the city. And the next day he went away with Barnabas to Derbe.

And after they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch,

strengthening the souls of the disciples,
encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, "Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God."

And when they had appointed elders for them in
every church, having prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

Psalm 35:13 But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing was sackcloth; I humbled my soul with
fasting; And my prayer kept returning to my bosom.

Matthew 6:16

"And whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance in order to be seen fasting by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full."
Joni
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 4:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

George,
I have always wondered about fasting. It does seem like work to me also. One thought I had when I read your post was that In all the times that people fasted in the Bible it was because of a crisis. When I am going through a crisis my stomach shuts down. I really have a hard time eating. Chyna is going through a crisis and she is fasting and praying without really knowing she is doing it. She said she was not able to eat and she was praying for wisdom, etc. As the crisis continues and we have support of others and start hearing answers, it lets up and we are able to eat. To consiously say I am going to fast and pray, well I really am not sure about it. Although groups will get together and fast and pray if there is a crisis. I am sure for some in the group they really can't eat and they find a deep need to pray. For others it may be just the thing to do.

David fasted and prayed when he was in trouble, his son was dying, He was found out, etc. The diciples fasted and prayed, because they knew they were comming up against a big event. They had to so they would be able to make it through. I guess what I am saying is; I see it as you automatically fast and pray when you need extra strength to make it through some crisis. Not to appear holy.
I have seen people going through hard times and they are praying and they can't eat, but they always have hope. You see it in them. I've seen otheres who let it be known they are fasting and praying and they are me, me, me.

Just some thoughts. I really need to study this aspect of the Christian life. Do we get strengthened because we fast and pray or do we get strength because we are to the end of ourselves and our bodies shut down, we began to trust in Jesus to take over and carry us. It usually is after the fact that we look back and see how God has worked, that we become strengthened and closer to Him, not while we are going through it. ???????????

Joni
Breezy
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 3:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You don't need to look any farther than the Garden of Gethsemane for the answers to the questions on fasting. When Jesus was going to face the most hideous trial of His life, He fasted and prayed. This should be an object lesson to all of us. George, how can that be work? Sherry, sounds like the Sabbath to me.

Wendy
Bruceh
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 5:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chyna

I agree with you I have found fasting improves my
prayer life. It has helped me to know Gods will in
my life and then to follow that.

Mt 9:14 Then the disciples of John came to Him,
saying, "Why do we and the Pharisees fast often,
but Your disciples do not fast?"
Mt 9:15 And Jesus said to them, "Can the friends
of the bridegroom mourn as long as the bridegroom
is with them? But the days will come when the
bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then
THEY WILL FAST.

However I believe that if it leads you into
legalism as almost any form of worship can do
(this is our human nature) then you need to pray
and ask God if it is for you or not, He will
answere you.

Hi everybody I have been out for a while.

Bruce Heinrich
Maryann
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 7:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Bruce;=))
Jtree
Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 2:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BIG PRAYER REQUEST!

I just got a "cry for HELP" from Gary Mayo in my Yahoo club. Pray for him.
Bruceh
Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 7:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann

Hi Maryann I see you are still comforting those
who are struggling keep up the good work. How is
George doing?


Bruce Heinrich


BH
Patti
Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 6:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, Josh.
What kind of "Cry for Help" did Gary send out? Of course I will pray for him. I pray for his physical well-being and that he finds peace.

Thank you for letting us know.
Jtree
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2000 - 5:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would strongly suggest you swing by the "club" and read it in the message listing, I will not post his message here, I let you all read it yourself. It's DESPERATE!

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/falsereligionexpositor

Message #1907.
Patti
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2000 - 8:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Josh,
Write me, please.
drpatti@msn.com
Jtree
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2000 - 5:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti, I did!
Patti
Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2000 - 12:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Josh!
Neat forum, btw....
Chyna
Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

it's been over a month since I last posted this message asking for prayer for my talk with my ex. and even more than a month than when I posted my first message as a guest (june 27th or so while i was still with him).

again I'd like to thank everybody who wrote advice and shared their stories.

it's been a long hard road full of heartache and sorrow. i'm happy to say that some light is breaking through, but it will still be awhile for me to get back to where I was before.

after hours and hours and hours of studying Adventism, and reading the forum here, and then reading articles on cults. I am shocked (and maybe Patti and Colleen will be nodding their heads sagely here) to conclude that Adventism is in the tentacles of the definition of a cult!

what a shocker. :) well, to go from last year, believing that Adventists were Christians with quirks, to deciding that Adventism definitely possesses a cult like aspect. it's probably not a 'destructive' cult in the sense that it'll drive their members to mass suicide anytime soon, but more in the social structure, and the hierarchical structure.

i read over all that was written from my own personal experience and the experience of others.

i realized that if I had been dating a "mainstream" Christian, the issue of what church to attend would never have been so tension filled, or the discussion of doctrine been so hostile.

little did I know that I was prodding someone who has been taught that anyone who prods is probably from the devil! that the person I was questioning had probably been taught from birth NOT to question doctrines but only encouraged to "understand" SDA doctrines better.

because I thought this way. I could feasibly marry someone who thought that hell wasn't eternal, or that you died totally when you died, or maybe even you could lose your salvation somehow. bad theology true, but like Walter Martin said, some of the things Adventists believe in doesn't necessarily mean they can't be saved.

however! the thing my ex could not accept in me was my refusal of his "special truths" that the Adventist church possesses! he wondered aloud to me how much of the "bizarreness" and "oddity" of SDA's beliefs threw me off from believing them.

the saddest part is that it is not because they are odd or bizarre that turned me off to adventist beliefs, it is because they were not biblical and he can't see that. when I read the article on "how cults twist the scriptures" i was gasping in disbelief how many of the techniques adventist use to do biblical gymnastics trying to get the Bible to fit their pre-determined beliefs.

when i was reading the definition of a cult and qualities of a cult, i was surprised that Adventism fit the bill (disconcertingly neatly) at times.

the real clincher for me is the social and cultural system that Adventists have. everytime I've talked about it to a friend who doesn't know about Adventism, I mention the extensive private school system and the communities being akin to Mormon's Salt Lake City and Brigham Young University, and the professional network of SDA hospitals and schools etc.

I realized that the "interior rejection" of other Christians stems from the fact that Adventists regard themelves as a special group with special truths and are hence able to look down upon everyone else for their beliefs. I realized that any other Christian would not have felt they couldn't marry me because I wasn't Episcopalian, or Lutheran or Presbyterian. I wondered, why did one absolutely have to be Adventist? this kind of extremism is not common.

also, the fact that disfellowshipping is done in the church and the questioning of doctrine is highly frowned upon (like desmond ford), and that they have a spiritual leader (EGW) whom no one is supposed to question and is not permitted to be subjected to outside criticism.

the fact that the Adventist church refuses to listen to anyone else on theological matters except for Ellen G. White!

when the narrow mindedness of these things finally struck me, I realized that it can only be because of spiritual blindness, and that contrary to what the SDA church believes, they are spreading false doctrines that they cannot even conceive as false!

the SDA church on a large scale, has been preaching false doctrine on everything from Salvation to the Health message.

when I realized that the foremost emotion I felt after being involved with my ex was deception I tried to figure out why that was so heinous.

it was heinous because he was deceived as much as I was! was deceived into thinking that he is a "mainstream" Christian when he is anything but.

i still sigh in frustration, that so many are involved in the church and so few realize how deceived they are. the magnitude is great.

another thing that has really convinced me is how nice all the adventists are that I've met. really nice people :). I wince now remembering that most people that are recruited into cults are always recruited by the nicest and most loving people. however, I learned (the hard way) how conditional that love is.

i see how the acceptance and the constant community contact is what keeps SDA's SDA's.

also, finally, the definition of a cult is not just a place where people get 'brainwashed' but it just offers an alternative view on reality, and that the glue of cults is the elitist club attitude. it all makes sense now, the way my ex is able to shun me completely because of my different beliefs since I outright rejected the adventist doctrine and therefore, he can't be with me or even much stand talking to me about doctrine anymore because all of it is a subconscious warning beep in his head. like I had said before, he probably was scared. or that the way he reacted to me when we talked about salvation was in fear.

of course he can't go to another church on another day because that would contradict the special truth he's grown up with his entire life.

*big sigh* anyway, as with every realization, it doesn't make me miss him less in my life. I do continue to pray. Thank you for all your prayers.

love in Chris,
Chyna
Chyna
Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

t

love in Christ :)
Lydell
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2000 - 7:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chyna, the truth makes us free, but it doesn't necessarily make us always feel good, as you have seen first hand. I'm so sorry for your hurt. And at the same time so happy that the Lord preserved you from make a mistake that would have caused so much more pain if you had married this guy.

I pray that you will be able to use what you have learned here to educate others about the garbage contained in Adventism wrappings. You may be able to help set others free, even if your ex- doesn't hear it from you. But even in him you have planted seeds. It's so sad that it can take many many years for the seeds to grow.

I know it doesn't wipe away the hurt from your heart. But try to think of the difference between how it felt to discuss beliefs with your ex- as compared to how it feels to discuss beliefs with those who are truly born again believers. There is a difference there. I think maybe the root of your hurt could be more from realizing that the relationship didn't work out to me one of unity on the matter of faith that just not having that particular person in your life. I other words, what you are grieving over may not be so much the person, as the image of who you hoped the person was compared to who he actually was.

Allowing the Lord to give you someone who shares your beliefs will make your entire homelife an atmosphere like you know in discussing beliefs with fellow believers now. Try to imagine that difference. Try to picture how it would affect a spouses ability to comfort you through the trying times when we face deaths of loved ones, for instance.

Hold on to the idea of the kind of family life you want and don't waver from it. God wants to give people peaceful homes. And that will be His design for a relationship for you.

But be warned, you can't go out shopping and find that. God will have to be the one to bring that person into your life Himself, in His way, in His time. Your part is simply to stay on the path and keep beholding Christ. He has good stuff in store for you in the process.

And always keep praying for the deceived ones. Our pastor has a saying, "the gospel is so simple, it takes a man (or in the case of the SDA's, an organization) to make it complicated and confusing." It's just incredibly frustrating to look at all the loops and tangles of the deception of an SDA and think, "good grief, where in the world do you start to untangle the mess?" Well, we don't know. Only the Holy Spirit can find the frayed end of that tangle. AND the person has to be willing to allow Him to do the work. The right thing said in the most perfect words still isn't going to get through to someone who refuses to listen. Think how it must hurt the Lord to deal with this millions of times over every day!
Colleentinker
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 11:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell, wonderful post.

Chyna, I'm so sorry for the hurt in your heart, but I'm so grateful that God spared you. I'm also grateful that God has helped you to see so clearly what the SDA church really is. Hardly any non-SDA Christians really understand how deceptive and dangerous it is. I believe that God will use this understanding for His purposes. There is a reason why you have come to understand this religion so well.

You are a great part of our discussions on this forum! Thank you for your openness and studiousness.

As Lydell said, hang on to your vision of what you want your family life to be. You would always have heartache if you were married to someone who is not born again.

God is so good to us!
I praise him for growing us even through pain.

Colleen
Chyna
Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2000 - 11:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

thanks again everyone, i finally sat down and wrote my experience down. i'm trying to promote it through the we just so people will know.

Seventh Day Adventist Experience

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