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Maryann
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2000 - 8:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Guys,

I did a search for some answers to the Revelation thing that the SDAs are so up on and found almost nothing.

Last weekend I did my "duty" and listened to some of the 3ABN stuff that seemed to identified the U.S.A. as the beast coming out of the earth. There were the two beast's and wounds and healed wounds and on and on. One is the Pope and we are in big trouble and also how the world, for all practical purposes, has already passed "THE" Sunday Law. I have some recall on this stuff from when I was a kid, but, not much. What is the deal. There is a special blessing to those who study Revelation according to Chapt 1. But all this focus seems to be taking away from the gospel. They claim that Revelation "IS" the gospel. I'm so tired of hearing; Paul, Paul, there is more to the Bible than Paul. Besides, even Peter says that Paul is easy to misunderstand. Soooo, is there ANYONE that can help me out with an over all paraphrase of this problem. I would like Bible verses on it also, but for now just an "in your own words" rundown.

Maryann
Plain Patti
Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2000 - 7:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann,
One thing I think the SDAs miss is that Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ not the revelation of last day events. Although, in the strictest sense you could go along with the "last days" theory because the disciples saw themselves living in the last days.

Hebrews 9:26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. (NIV)

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (KJV)

This is why John was instructed not to seal up the book, because the time was at hand, not centuries in the future, unlike the apocalyptic prophets of old, whose prophecies were centuries from fulfillment. Christ had appeared in the end of the world, and had taken away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. Revelation is a fantasia on the crucified, dead, and risen Savior.

Revelation is a highly colorful, ecstatic, and symbolic book. And such a book which is full of hidden meanings should never be used to interpret the Gospel; rather, the apocalyptic books should be interpreted in the light of the very clear statements of Gospel found in the Gospels and Epistles. (If SDAs say they are tired of Paul, Paul, Paul, then use Jesus' own words on them. Especially the Gospel of John. Let them argue with Christ Himself.)

Look at Revelation 5, for example. I will not post it in its entirety here, but it is an exultant song of praise for the worthiness of the Lamb and His perfect and completed saving work. You will find this in other chapters also. The mistake that SDAs (and other fundamentalists) make is that they interpret Revelation as revealing human history instead of revealing the historical Christ event. Additionally, they take each part of Revelation as literal, pinpointing an exact historical event or era, while taking the Gospel of salvation by believing in Jesus Christ alone figuratively. (Actually, if the truth be known, SDAs spend very little time at all in discourse about salvation in most of their churches. I remember when the evangelistic meetings came to town, there was a series of 15 or so sermons, most of them on Daniel, Revelation, the sabbath, etc. There was a single night, a single sermon devoted to "What Must I Do to be Saved?")

Also, SDAs claim to have the key to Revelation, but they dwell only on a few parts are are relatively silent on other passages. Just as they do with the book of Daniel.

One would have a hard time finding the Gospel in Revelation. Does it mention the Gospel? Yes, it does, but it does not define clearly just what the Gospel is. A call to worship the Creator, to avoid the mark of the beast, is not a exegesis on the Gospel. One must go to the Gospels (Duh! :) and the Epistles for clear statements of salvation.

I hope this helps.
Maryann
Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2000 - 9:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti,

Thank you, that is good for starters. Hebrews (especially Chapt 4) is a great revelation for "regular" Evangelical Christians, but it means very little to SDAs and Formers just getting out. They need their hand held and be walked though it so as to understand it and to "purge" the old SDA Sabbath way. This takes a lot of time to walk a well indoctrinated SDA worth their salt to see! In the same way, Revalation, "WILL" take a lot of "walking" to get out of it.

Even though I'm not so indoctrinated into the SDA intepretation (because so many years have have gone by) yet, even I have some trouble not buying into the, "it fit's so well" theory. When this is presnted by people like Lyle Albrecht, Doug Batchlor and Dwight Nelson, who have devoted their lives to this and the other SDA doctrines, I DON'T HAVE A SNOW BALLS CHANCE IN HELL TO MAKE HEADS OR TAILS OF IT :-( Mom sooooooo believs it, hook, line and sinker. She is soooooo sincere. She is just to afraid to not believe it. You guys know the drill:-( In a way, I'm soooooo fortunate to have been out of this for such a long time. You see, God is all powerful and knowing. I'm sure he has a plan somewhere, somehow for me. Now I just have to figure out what it was I learned all those 20+ years I was out :-)

More please.

Maryann
Lynn W
Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2000 - 9:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't forget Paul wrote most of the New Testament, and it was written to believers. He was also instructed by direct revelation from Christ, so I'd say he's worth listening to. Jesus said there's more things He'd like to teach, but the disciples weren't ready yet. I believe those things were revealed later through Paul.
Colleentinker
Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2000 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good point, Lynn. I've come to see Paul as crucial to understanding how to live out a Christian life. Isn't is fascinating that God gave a Pharisee of Pharisees a mission to Gentiles!
Steve Pitcher
Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2000 - 7:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Very good point regarding Paul. I've been casting of my SDA distinctives and have found that I'm quite "Pauline" in my thinking. However, I used James and John as a typical Adventist. Now, trying to approach the NT without preconceptions (I admit I have some, don't we all?) has kept me hanging on every word. Although I don't even have a desire to read Revelation at this time, I think that if I do, I'll try to read it in light of what Paul has written. If I (we) do that Christ will take center stage.

What am I saying?! THERE'S ONLY ONE STAGE! I'll take the beasts, commandments, trumpets, thunders, etc. off the stage and allow Christ to take the stage. As an analogy, I think we Adventists think of Revelation as a 3-ring circus, and sometimes we even remember to put Christ in the center ring. But if Revelation is a Revelation OF Jesus then there's no room for the other two rings. Christ must become all.

As one African missionary to the United States once said, I think paraphrasing Watchman Nee, when we come to Christ the I is crossed out, leaving us with a T (a cross).

Paul wanted to know "nothing" among them (I think it was the Corinthians) other than Christ, and Him crucified. When we come to Revelation with that perspective, all of the happenings in the book of Revelation result in lifting up Christ and His cross.

As Colleen said, Paul was Pharisee of the Pharisees sent to the Gentiles. As an Adventist of Adventists, and as a Gentile, I thank God that He's not requiring that I fully understand the book of Revelation. If I keep Christ lifted up and the only One on the stage, then He will take care of all of the events in Revelation.

As a new Christian I used to listen to Larry Norman a lot. In a talk, he once said that we need to stop marching for peace, whales, rights, etc. and start marching for Jesus. When we march for Jesus, peace will take care of itself.

As an Adventist, I will stop standing up for the Law, the sabbath, the anti-Christ, the Loud Cry, the Scapegoat, the patience of the saints, Ellen White (who is NOT the Spirit of Prophecy), the Latter Rain, the health message, the Investigative Judgment, the state of the dead, the general conference, ad nauseum. I will desire to know Christ and Him Crucified. Then all the rest will take care of itself.

(OOPS! Hope y'all don't mind that spouting off. Some things I just need to get out.)

In the New Jerusalem Bible (I'm really straying) Rev. 1:3 says, "Blessed is anyone who reads the words of this prohecy, and blessed those who hear them, if they treasure the content, because the Time is near." DOING the book of Revelation is lifting up and treasuring Him who is revealed in that book.

May we all continue to lift up, treasure, and Reveal, Jesus.

God bless,

Steve
Lynn W
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2000 - 11:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Be careful, Steve, next you'll be replacing Nebuchadnezzar's image with the Cross as the central theme of the gospel. Then you'll be wanting to see crosses on churches instead 3 angels. Then we'll know you're really a "gentile."

;^)
Colleentinker
Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2000 - 4:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great observations, Steve! I'm listening to some sermon tapes by Dale Ratzlaff--he's doing an ongoing series on Revelation. He makes the point that the symbols in Revelation need to be related to the symbols in the OT, and then they begin to have context.

For example, the New Jerusalem is described (by dimensions) as a cube. (A very big cube, I might say!) Dale asks, what OT symbol was also a perfect cube? The answer? The Most Holy Place in the sanctuary. The place where God dwelled!

Put those two symbols together, and the New Jerusalem is where God dwells. It's also called the bride. That suggests that the New Jerusalem consists of Christ-followers, the church, and that is where God will dwell for eternity! (Dale did not actually draw that conclusionóI don't want to put words in his mouth! He pointed out that the New Jerusalm is, like the most holy place, a perfect cube, and therefore we can see the New Jerusalem as the place where God dwells.)

Revelation is no longer frightening or daunting. It's still obscure in many places, but it is the revelation of Jesus. The whole book is about Him! It's become exciting to read it.
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 10:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear all,

Am enjoying immensely getting back on-line and reading the posts. I'm just getting re-started. A thought came to mind as I perused the posts in this Discussion:

Many people know that the Greek word eschaton means "end." From it we get our English word eschatology or "the study of the end."

I like very much what Plain Patti said near the beginning of this Discussion:

"One thing I think the SDAs miss is that Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ not the revelation of last day events."

How true! Now, try this concept on for size:

Jesus Christ IS the eschaton! Never mind that SADs can't "hack it"! That's not our problem any more, is it? And if the eschaton is Jesus Christ, then eschatology is not scary, spooky conspiracy theories or SAD heretical "revelation seminars."

It is no less than the study of Jesus Christ the Righteous. What a seminary course!

For, if he is the Alpha, then he is also the Omega. If he is the Author of our faith, then he is also its Finisher. And if no more words can be added to or subtracted from so great a Revelation, then no more words can be added to or taken away from Jesus Christ. EGW notwithstanding!

(And, incidently, Colleen, I don't like the scary look in her photographed eyes any more than you do.)

Fellow Christ-followers, just breath a huge sigh of relief and forget all about the SAD pre-Advent judgment. Oh, there was a pre-Advent judgment, all right! But it wasn't SAD. And it didn't start in 1844. And, thank God, it's all over and done and finished and ended. So what if the SADs say it isn't? The fact that they say it's ongoing doesn't make it so.

It started at the cross and it ended on the throne at the right hand of our Father when he bade Jesus to sit down there!

(You didn't misread that. I didn't say, "his Father." I said "our Father," for that's what Jesus told us to call him. Remember the song that Colleen loves so well: "Thank you, O my Father, for sending us your Son....")

And all of us who believe in him have already been pre-advent judged. And that pre-advent judgment is This: We are both dejure and defacto forever righteous, forever sanctified, forever perfect, and forever citizens of the kingdom of heaven that is within and among us all!

Whoa, man! I can't begin to get my mind around this Big Bang of a concept!

But I can believe! And I can praise!

Tears of joyful gratitude for all of you who like me have been walking in darkness but have now seen a great Light dawning in your hearts,

Jude
Lynn W
Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2000 - 11:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome back, Jude the observant.
Bill Twisse
Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2000 - 10:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The issue of how Revelation is to be interpreted is a very crucial one.

I love Patti's statement:

"Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ not the revelation of last day events. Although, in the strictest sense you could go along with the 'last days' theory because the disciples saw themselves living in the last days."

Eschatology is primarily the doctrine of the 'Last One', not the 'last things.' Jesus stands at the end of history as the judge and we will all have to acknowledge that he is Lord. I have determined that the next time I am approached by a new-ager, I will simply quote 'every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.'

The views on Revelation being promoted today by well-published former Adventists are radically different that what many of us came to believe, through prayerful study and research, back in the massive departure from SDAism in the early 80's. One prominent former SDA pastor has joined the Christian & Missionary Alliance and another the Calvary Chapel, both of which teach fleshly premillenialism.

The most popular views on eschatology today are fleshly premillenialism and reconstructionist postmillenialism. If anyone is interested in discussing why both positions fall short of the gospel, I would be interested in pursuing it.

--Twisse
Maryann
Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2000 - 11:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Bill,

You said:

"The issue of how Revelation is to be interpreted is a very crucial one." AND

"If anyone is interested in discussing why both positions fall short of the gospel, I would be interested in pursuing it."

I agree, it is very crucial, please continue.

Thanking you in advance.....Maryann
Bruce H
Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2000 - 4:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill Twisse
----The most popular views on eschatology today
are fleshly premillenialism and reconstructionist
postmillenialism. If anyone is interested in
discussing why both positions fall short of the
gospel, I would be interested in pursuing it. ----

It sounds to me that you have a strong view point
in this area.

I believe the Gospel is seperate from Eschatology,
Adventist are the one who mix this up.

Bruce Heinrich
Colleentinker
Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2000 - 5:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

By the way, Bill, the well-published former SDA minister who pastors a Missionary Alliance Church does not teach "fleshly premillenialism". He freely states that he is still studying the issue, and he has significant questions about the idea of premillenialism. He is studying all angles of this question, icluding amillenialsm.

I think it's safe to say that many former Adventists, regardless of when they left the church (the one in question left about the time you didóearly '80's) do not necessarily embrace all doctrinal details of the churches in which they find themselves. I think it is also safe to say that they agree on certain non-negotiables with salvation by grace through faith in Christ standing firmly at the center.
Bill Twisse
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2000 - 5:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the correction, Colleen. You are right on this one and I was in error.
Sherry2
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2000 - 1:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I find it interesting though that in all of Revelation it does not mention Sabbath....yes it mentions keeping commandments, but not specifically the Sabbath. In OT you often find it saying "they did not keep my laws and they profaned my Sabbaths." It is interesting to me that as SDA's we often voice about Sabbath being the final test on that basis of Rev. 13 and 14, but yet take a look at those texts....this second beast causes people to worship the first beast - which in 10 commandment language would be breaking the 1st commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before me", we also see in earlier verses that this first beast was a blasphemer of God and spoke against God, now that is commandment #3You shall not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain", and you see that the second beast makes an image to the first beast , commandment #2 thou shalt not make for yourself any carved image ...or bow down to serve it.." and we see that the image receives life and is caused to be worshiped. Now we should be able to see that this is the beast before we ever get to commandment #4, but yet the SDA's put all the emphasis on this being a day of worship...sabbath v sunday. Hello! I think we got problems if we start worshipping this beast at the beginning period, irregardless of what day of worship this beast might chose for himself. Wouldn't it be a shock if he turned the "sabbath" into his day to be worshipped on. The point is we missed the first greatest commandment to Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul is already entirely broken by how this beast starts out, and then we see the beast kills whomever will not worship him....like Nebuccadnezzar (SP?) and his golden image putting them in the burning furnace. Hmmm....now the beast is on to breaking the "Loving your neighbor as yourself" rule too. I haven't found image to mean other things in the Bible than an idol-type thing either. Still more to study though. But I think you can see what I saying here...SDA's have put all the emphasis on the day of worship that is supposedly the "image", but we as Christians had better be awake long before that to know that this beast wants us to worship it. Just a thought.
Breezy
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2000 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry2,

I think that is a very good point! Even though I do think it is likely for a National Sunday Law to occur(through research I've been doing on the government), I think before that occurs there will be many opportunities for the people of God to be fooled and worship the beast. I just heard on the news that all three pieces are in place for the beast to come into power including a committee that will involve representatives from 12 different religions to try to establish a united european religion. Now, if the SDA church sends representatives to this and believes somehow that they are avoiding the mark of the beast or whatever,simply 'cause they haven't accepted sunday, I think they are sadly misguided. I think you are right. We really must keep our eyes open to the subtleties that are occuring even now.

This is a question I have wanted to ask the group. If you reject Ellen White, what then replaces her in End-time event theology? What have you guys done with it(end-times), 'cause I still think it is very relevant and time is short.

just a question,
Wendy
Colleentinker
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2000 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I also believe we are living in end times. Without Ellen, though, Revelation is much less specific and far more hopeful. It was when we were studying Revelation with our Christian neighbors that we realized how much Ellen was clinging-on in our subconscious interpretations.

I'm less certain exactly how things will unfold. I absolutely believe that there will be terrible times, plagues, etc. I'm far less certain about how the millenium will look than I used to be. When you read Revelation without Ellen, it's almost unavoidable that the thousand years appears to include nations living on the earth while Satan is bound.

What does that mean specifically? I'm not sure. I've come to believe that Revelation is not supposed to give us specifics about the end. We're not supposed to be able to predict exactly what will happen. It gives us just enough, though, so that WHEN things happen, we will know God is with us, and the symbolism will makes sense.

I think Revelation is clear that there will be terrible trouble brought on by those who refuse the grace of Jesus and follow after the "beast" and the "dragon". They will attempt cruelty and violent control. Christ-followers will be the "enemy". But exactly who, what, when, and where is still speculative. I think we can make informed guesses, but we don't know for sure.

The Adventists (and others) have had to quietly change their printed analyses of Revelation since World War II. I remember that J.L. Tucker, founder of The Quiet Hour, had old sermons stating which countries were symbolized by certain things Revelation, and he had to discontinue using those sermons. (I never heard those sermons, but I saw some of them when I worked there.)

Evangelicals don't all agree on exactly how the end-time scenario will unfold. But they do agree on this: the book of Revelation is about the revelation of Jesus Christ. He is the center; he is the Savior; He is already the victor!

The details are in the mind of God, and we can know one thing for sure: we will never be alone!

In His hnad,
Colleen
Patti
Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 4:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, Wendy,
You asked:
This is a question I have wanted to ask the group. If you reject Ellen White, what then replaces her in End-time event theology? What have you guys done with it(end-times), 'cause I still think it is very relevant and time is short.

My answer:
Jesus Christ replaces her end-time theology, just as He replaces her sabbatarian theology.

The Disciples saw themselves living in the last days:

Hebrews 1:1 Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets. 2 But now in these final [eschaton] days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he made the universe and everything in it. 3 The Son reflects God's own glory, and everything about him represents God exactly. He sustains the universe by the mighty power of his command. After he died to cleanse us from the stain of sin, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God of heaven.

Mt 16:28 - Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mr 9:1 - And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Lu 9:27 - But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

The finished work of Jesus Christ ushered in the kingdom of God. Read Revelation 5. This can only refer to the exultant reception Jesus ("the Lamb") received at His ascension. We have been programmed to put off everything in Revelation to the future, because SDAs do not believe that the work of Jesus Christ is an accomplished fact. Yet, this is not the understanding shared by early disciples. They saw themselves living in the last days. Then.

Perhaps we can discuss this in more detail later.

In the meantime, grace and peace to all...
Patti
Breezy
Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2000 - 7:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti,
I agree with you to a point. I still believe in a literal Second Coming. So many things in the Bible have multiple fulfillments. I look forward to the rest of your discourse.
Grace to you also,
Wendy

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