| Author | Message | ||
| Steve |
Hi All, Surrealism. That best expresses my life for the past couple of weeks. I've been walking in a fog and my words have not made sense, even to me. And when DJConklin started posting, I reacted to that in a most uncharacteristic way. Not that that is an excuse. Please understand that I take full responsibility for my words. I am truly sorry. Even some of what I said was NOT what I believe. For example, my reaction to Allenette's point about objectivity beating subjectivity every time. To DJConklin and Allenette, I am truly sorry. I was angry about religion and what it is doing to my family and took it out on you. And even though it's a very personal, individual experience for me, it doesn't take much to see that when a spouse attempts to kick you out and doesn't want you to talk to the kids about going to church on Sunday, one could easily get warped by that experience. However, I did say that I had an opinion about DJConklin and his mission here. So I'll quote him on this: "So you could say that my interest is in straightening out people's mis-conceptions." I agree we all have misconceptions. And in the future I'll be more objective about all of this. (By the way, isn't "objectivity" simply shared subjectivity? Well, not really. That's why scientists use double-blind studies, to minimize the subjectivity, amongst other things.) Looking forward to more interaction. Steve | ||
| Lori |
Steve, I'm so sorry to hear about your family difficulties....I can't imagine how that feels. I was so fortunate to have married outside of the Adventist church-to someone that knew how wrong the beliefs were but never pressed me to change, God took care of that in his time! So when I decided to leave the SDA church, I walked into a wonderful reception from my spouse. However, I do know what it feels like to have your parents reject you! My feelings about that ebb and flow. Sometimes I want to throw it all in their face, but we all know what the reaction to that is!! My only concern is for their salvation, because I don't know where they stand. So many Adventist feel fairly confident of their salvation-not because of who and what Christ is-because they keep the Sabbath. (I know that is where my safety net was) My confidence was not in Christ but in my own observance of the Sabbath. I have come to the conclusion that leaving the Adventist church is simply not something that you can prompt someone to do. It has to begin with a self realization of something begin wrong with what they believe and a search for the real truth and not just the Adventist truth. The problem with showing an Adventist their wrong is that it only plunges them deeper into their search for the Adventist truth. Not exactly the desired effect. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved!!" This is what our concern should be......do they believe in the Christ? The other issues about the Sabbath, foods, are clearly spoken to be an issue between God and the individual and we should keep those issues to our selves. (Romans 14) May God give you wisdom to deal with your family, however, sometimes that means keeping your mouth shut (and saying nothing is so much harder than saying something). I know you want to free your children from legalism--that was my goal as well--for my children to never be enslaved like I was. I want them to feel the love of a heavenly Father that I never acheived until less than a year ago. I want them to know that Christianity is a relationship, not a religion!!!! Lori | ||
| Cindy |
Lori, Hi! I agree with what you wrote on the Sabbath being the confidence of many... This is NOT to say there are not many who trust in Jesus, too. It's just that Jesus is not quite Enough! It is Jesus, PLUS my Sabbathkeeping... To me, this is the same issue Paul addressed in Galatia, the Judaizers who did not DENY Christ, just wanted to ADD some meritorious work of their own to HIS Complete Work FOR us--HIS Life and Death and Resurrection in our place! They were not content to REST in this FINISHED work, this free gift of GRACE!! Also, I have found arguing doctrinal points useless if I sense the other person is getting upset. (I admit, it can sometimes be me also!!) Then I just have to speak of Christ and how wonderful HE is! BTW, this is a mystery to many Adventists; that you still love and want to follow Jesus as 'The TRUTH', but don't believe in the 'truth' as the church has proclaimed... Then again, there are many seekers of Jesus who are open to discussing how Jesus is the Center, the Focus, and the Fulfillment of ALL Scripture Promises and Covenants, even as the True '24/7' Sabbath Rest!! Asking for the Promised Holy Spirit-- to be my guide, to know when to speak up, and when to remain silent--has been a big thing to me. I have struggled with the issue of "living under the law" to help those under the law, and speaking out forcefully when it seem the Gospel is being so compromised! Blessings to you today, Lori! Grace always, Cindy P.S. I like Anne Graham Lotz's new seminar title: "Just Give Me JESUS." | ||
| Maryann |
DAVID, where are you? I just read Clay Peck's story in the story section of this site! WOW!! If you haven't read it, would you please read it? Would you comment on it please? How have you been? After reading a story that involved Clay Peck's father, I was interested in Clay's story. Anyone else that hasn't read it, please drop everything and read it! Maryann | ||
| Cindy |
Maryann, I read Clay's story a few days ago. Yes, I also encourage everyone to click on the 'Stories' section at the beginning of this site to find this interesting story, plus a few other new ones, including one by our own BMorgan! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Cindy, Yes, yes, our own Bmorgan has a wonderful story there in the story section. I did not forget her! ;-)) All the stories are great too! I'm just trying to figure out where DJConklin went. I really would like him to read Clay Pecks story and comment on it. I'm weaning myself from the Forum a little. I have a nearly insurmountable mountain of things I have to do before the last week of August! I may share some of this at a later time. Gotta get busy.......Maryann | ||
| Chyna |
hi, thanks for reminding me that Adventists will not make a step out of their church and doctrine until they're willing to, otherwise talking to them will just make them all the more determined not to listen, or as you say lori, to dig for more adventist truth. my former boyfriend will be out in Loma Linda for medical school, maybe I can convince him to stop by FAF :). he won't believe anything he doesn't hear firsthand, so if I tell him some people equate EGW even higher than scripture he asks me if I know the person (talk about frustrating). keep him and me in your prayers, please! -Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
so these past weeks I've been studying Adventism very avidly. and the most fatal flaw I found in Adventism in both the doctrine and their practice is this: Galatians 5:14b The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." the greek word Paul uses for "entire" (this is the NIV version quoted) is "pas" meaning: all, all things, every, all men, whosoever, everyone, whole, all manner of, every man, no, every thing, any, whatsoever, whosoever, always, daily, any thing, no, not tr,misc clearly in this context of the verse Paul means all things, whole law, all manner of law. this leaves no room for saying that the sabbath commandment or the decalogue are not part of the whole law. this relates back to sabbath keeping, or maintaining your salvation by commandment keeping. whenever i would say the two greatest commandments are 'love the lord your God will all your heart etc., love your neighbor as yourself.' my friend would say that loving God means keeping his commandments, and I would agree, but how we love God is by loving our neighbor because it says in the Bible that the one that hates his brother and loves God is a liar because how can one love God who is unseen and hate his brother who he can see? and also Jesus talks about how if you feed, clothe, visit people you are ministering to Him. the thing the Adventist church does not realize that they are not fulfilling the law by keeping the Decalogue, but by loving their neighbor would they keep God's greatest commandments to love Him and their neighbor. i realize that by secluding themselves away from other people, Christians and nonChristians, they are not loving their neighbors, they are loving themselves like the Jews did, and how the Jews rejected the Samarians. they use Sabbath keeping and EGW, the health msg and other facets of their doctrine to validate sectioning themselves off from other people. this separatism is also what is hindering them from coming to certain truths that have been previously hidden from them. if they could establish constant and open contact with other Christians, I think that they would be forced by exhibiting goodwill towards other Christians to consider an alternative perspective. i liked that quote 'iron sharpens iron' the adventist church is only reliant on itself to an extreme. also, i was reading about how 'church' merely means a gathering of believers. how we have twisted that meaning today to mean a building, a meeting place, a denomination. Adventists unwittingly are this: Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. by reading on adventism, it has become apparent to me that while they will say that they are saved by grace alone they say that they need to maintain their relationship by commandment keeping. they don't realize they have fallen from the experience of God's grace. some thoughts, Chyna | ||
| Sherry2 |
Thank you Chyna. That was well thought out and oh so true! My hubby is still sda. I just left 2 months ago. The thing that I need poured in my heart every day is a love for the sda people too. I do not want to find myself shutting them off because of their false doctrine, but loving them too. And being able to be a duck, and let their wanting to convert me back, roll off my back, and not bothered by it. That is what I pray God does in my life and heart. Thank you for your honesty too. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Chyna and Sherry, Good observations from both of you. My prayers are with you both. One of the greatest gifts I've discovered since leaving SDAism is the power of intercessory prayer. Suddenly instead of seeming like an insurance policy or a last-ditch effort when all else fails, prayer now is the main thing. Oswald Chambers says that prayer is THE WORK of the Christian. In Him, Colleen | ||
| Chyna |
I was just reading my bible about Galatians, and the Judaizers. I can see now why some people will classify SDA's as Judaizers. in Galatians, Paul is seeking to refute the Judaizers which have been following him in his ministry teaching that grace is not enough that they need to follow the law of Moses in order to assure themselves of salvation. basically: in order to be saved, you must first come to Jesus by faith, but then to continue being saved you must follow the law of Moses. so in Galatians we see that Paul is teaching against legalism, and human restrictions on salvation. one verse that made me particularly think of SDA: Galatians 4:17 Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you [from us], so that you may be zealous for them. 18 It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always and not just when I am with you. so, the SDA zeal to win you back is misplaced. you will be in my prayers, Sherry. I am also delighted that God is reminding me to love as a fulfillment of His will. I get so caught up in theology, that sometimes I think that I will be able to persuade people by sheer fact, but the truth is love wins the day. | ||
| Djconklin |
Maryann: DAVID, where are you? My HD went to lunch and took all my passwords with it. === I just read Clay Peck's story in the story section of this site! WOW!! If you haven't read it, would you please read it? I did; I wans't impressed. My dad frequently complains that most pastors simply preach about things off the top of their head. I felt the same way when I read his speech (I also noted an inconsistency in it); of course, I should add that when I speak I'm probably the only one who not only wiotes it all out word-for-word but I also have footnotes and a bibliography! === Would you comment on it please? Will do; see next post. | ||
| Djconklin |
Peck speech (long) >>Adventists encourage and often coerce their adherents to send their children to their own schools. People who send their kids to public schools usually feel that they are subtly treated as second class citizens. ìCoerceî? How? My parents certainly werenít made to feel like ìsecond class citizensî because they didnít send any of their four kids to Adventist schools. >>While Adventist schools usually do a fine job educating students academically, they also serve two important needs: protection and indoctrination. Hmm, letís see how many students died while I was Andrews, was it 4 or 5? Yep, great job of ìprotection.î Then thereís the ìindoctrinationî claimñthey couldnít have been doing too good of job judging by the number of women coming and going from the menís dorms at all hours of the day and nightñor how about the playing tennis on the Sabbath? How about the porno magazines in the menís dorms? How could they have been ìindoctrinating anyone when we were encouraged, if not outright required, to read all sorts of scholarly literature? >>The second important function of Adventist schools is indoctrination. The school system is an important tool for instilling the unique and demanding doctrinal and cultural package of Adventism. Yeah, rightñsee above. >>Or the questionable story (more likely a myth) that she held a heavy family Bible at arm's length for a half-hour while in vision. And who told the story? Does he have any eyewitnesses who were there to say it didnít happen? >>Children are taught that they must maintain a distinct lifestyle in dress, eating and recreation that will set them apart from the world. It is true, by the way, that Christians will be different from non-Christians. But nowhere does the Bible suggest that we should be odd. ìOddî? Whatís so ìoddî about the way we dress? Canít even tell the difference between us and the worldñit ainít like weíre the Mennonites or Amish. >>Many young people are filled with fear when they think about the end. ìManyî? Whereís the survey? Whatís the degrees of difference? How large was the sampling pool? He certainly didnít ask any of us up here. >>The indoctrination process is so effective, See above; simply repeating a lie doesnít make it any more true. >>that even though many Adventist young people become discouraged with Adventism and slip away, most of them still believe it is true. They stay loyal to the idea, long after they give up trying. Again, whereís the statistical evidence? >>Religion for me as a young person was Christ -- plus rules. Iím sorry to hear that he was so terribly mis-led; but that doesnít make it so for me. >>Rules, of course, are a part of life. But for many Adventist kids they become quite oppressive. No TV, no movies, no meat, no adornment, no secular music (I used to hide a small radio under my pillow to listen to Glen Campbell singing about a "Rhinestone Cowboy"). And on Sabbath, starting a half-hour before sundown on Friday night, there was to be no secular activity or conversation. I couldn't wear jeans for a Sabbath-afternoon hike because those were "every-day" clothes. Again thereís there ìmanyî which canít be proven. We had TV and werenít told we couldnít watch it. I was virtually raised on all the ìgun showsî like Bat Masterson, Big Valley, Wyatt Earp, The Rifleman, The Mavericks, ìHave Gun, Will Travel,î etc., etc.. There were so many TVís in the dorm you couldnít study there. ìNo meatî? Not us. ìNo secular musicî? Not us. A ìhalf-hour _before_ sundownî?!? [emphasis added] No wonder he rebelled! No ìjeansî on the Sabbath? Sheesh! >>When I went away to an Adventist boarding academy, even though it was run like a military school,... Since I hadnít gone to any I asked my lady friend who had and she just laughed and said ìNo; but I could see how some of the buys might think like that.î I should add that my first thought when I read that is that he _obviously_ has never been to a military academy! And probably should have! >>I tried very hard to be a good Christian by observing all the Adventist extras. If you ever need evidence that he had been seriously mis-led about living the Christian life look no further than this. >>Ellen White has ... doctrinal authority Yeah, right. Although you might recall that he did say that he had used drugs. >>I didn't eat meat because I read that all of those who are translated when Jesus returns will be vegetarians. And where is that said? >> I read that I shouldn't eat vinegar. Really; where? And why did he believe it? Says more about him than anything else. >>Did you notice I used the term "non-Adventist?" That is common language in Adventist circles. I never hear that outside Adventism. Do you ever hear Lutherans talking about reaching "non-Lutherans" or Presbyterians talking about "non-Presbyterian" relatives? I don't. The Catholic church does about the Protestants. >>Adventists ... have a hard time viewing other Christians as their brothers and sisters Gee, Iím an Adventist and I was _always_ taught that they are Christians. >>when their prophetess clearly stated that all other denominations are Babylon and people need to be called out of them. Well, Clay. How about the apostle John (I believe he was a male. Maybe that will make it easier for you to accept, eh?)? Did you ever read Rev. 18:4? >>Some Adventists have been presumptuous enough to apply the words of Jesus to their denomination when Jesus said, "Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd" (John 10:16, KJV). If they are to ìcome outî as in Rev. 18:4 to what would they go _to_? >>I even prepared a 40-page paper, compiling Ellen White quotes to prove that Jesus had a fallen, sinful nature like ours. My reason for establishing that was to insist, just like Ellen White, that if Jesus could be sinless with a fallen nature, then we can be also. Adventists have argued for years over the nature of Christ, and many have rejected the heresy that declares that Jesus was just like us with a sinful nature. But students of Ellen White know that she taught it. 1) Iíd like a copy of that paper. 2) I was never taught that EGW said that Jesus had a sinful nature. Of course, I canít speak for what his teachers might have taught him. >>While I was working hard to be perfect (and failing miserably all along), Well, duh! >>One time a police detective called me and said he was concerned by the pictures on my brochures and the frequent use of the number 666. He was worried that perhaps a dangerous cult was sponsoring the advertisements. Can this be verified? Iím such a skeptic; but then given the whoppers heís told so far I canít trust him at all. >>I was taught to hide our denominational affiliation if possible in the early nights of the meeting. Really? By whom? >>the following list was given as man's part in being saved: "Forsake sin, pray for a clean heart, let the Spirit lead, be willing to keep God's law, be instant in prayer, witness for God, assemble when possible, feed on the Word, and keep your eyes on Christ. Friends, regardless of how good and helpful any of those things are, they are NOT man's part in being saved. Our obedience is a response to God's saving initiative, not a part of what saves us! Well, duh again! >>[referring to some professors at Andrews], while others were concerned only with defending Adventism. Who? Not while I was there! >>I gave up my heretical view on the nature of Christ. Then his stint there wasnít a total waste of time. I discovered all kinds of problem statements that she had made  statements which contradicted the Bible, herself, science and history. Name one; especially from history. I looked at the page on this site about alleged contradictions between EGW and the BibleñI wasnít impressed. >> She made prophecies that didn't come true, Name one. >> tried to cover up mistakes she made Name one. >>and placed burdens on people that even she could not live under. Name one. >>She made multiple statements that contradict the New Testament gospel. Name one. >>It has been proven that Ellen White borrowed most of her writings from other writers. ìMostî? By what statistical measure? The ìbestî I ever saw was a claim of about 41% and to get that the web page maker had to play games by clipping part of the other guyís sentence and then didnít even use a full paragraph! If he had it would have been (I would guess) less than .01% (the point is there on purpose because the other guyís paragraph runs over two pages!). Letís take a random look at one example in Reaís book: page 235 heís comparing the Great controversy with another book entitled Lifeís Incidents. On page 368 of the Great Controversy he has: ìFarmers left their fields, merchants their tools, traders their merchandise, professional men their positions; and yet the number of workers was small.î From the other book we have (Iíll put underscores marks before and after the identical words) ì_Farmers_ leave _their_ farms, with crops standing, to go out and sound the alarm, and _mechanics_ _their_ shops.î Now assuming that Rea hasnít played any games with the evidence we have a grand total of 4 words out of 19 (from the other book; thereís 22 in GC) that are the same. >>After Walter Rea shook up the denomination in the early 1980s with his research concerning Ellen White's plagiarism in the book, The White Lie, Did he read the whole book? Did he notice the utter and complete nonsense that Rea spews out in that book? How about page 7 in the prologue in which he looks at ìhuckstersî and links them to all disciplines: ìeconomic, social and religiousî and points out how the hucksters ìsell the white lie in whatever size or shape they think their public will buy.î What does that say about him and his audience? >>Dr. Veltman concluded that the book was "for the most part derived rather than original" and that one is not able to recognize "any general category of content or catalog of ideas that is unique to her." He admitted that the evidence "strikes at the heart of her honesty, her integrity, and therefore her trustworthiness." (See Ministry magazine, November, 1990). I have a copy of the summary of his study and as I recall it doesnít say anything like that. >>When I walked into my church assignment at Richmond, I walked unknowingly into World War III. They asked for change, so I thought they wanted it. Silly. Never ever assume. >>I was flown to Andrews University to be interrogated by three professors. ... The professors at Andrews who interviewed me (although they spent more time talking than asking me questions and had a hard time agreeing with each other on some key issues), Now which is it? Were you ëinterrogatedî or did they do most of the talking? Do you know what constitutes an ìinterrogationî? And why did you say one thing to one audience and something totally different to another? | ||
| Djconklin |
Jude and Col. 2:16-17 THE SABBATH IN COLOSSIANS 2:16,17 Here is that famous text: ììTherefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day ññ things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.îî Bible scholars are generally professors at seminaries and universities who have Ph.D. degrees in biblical studies, who know Greek and Hebrew and sometimes Aramaic and even Sanskcrit, etc., and who are also generally learned in the history and often the archaeology of the ancient Near East. These people almost universally interpret the phrase ññ ìì[1] a festival or [2] a new moon or [3] a Sabbath dayîî ññ as [1] a Jewish annual Sabbath (such as the Day of Atonement for them or Christmas or Easter for us today), [2] a Jewish monthly religious celebration, and [3] the weekly Sabbath day. Such scholars go all the way back to luminaries such as Tertullian, Augustine, Luther and Calvin. And that interpretation has remained almost universally inviolate to this day. Well, this sounds all really good except for the fact that when you actually go out looking at the output of the scholars on this verse (and I have looked at over 70 so far) not a single one of them has interpreted ìfestivalî as applying to the Day of Atonement. If they did it would have been very quickly pointed out to them that in not one single instance is the Day of Atonement called a ìfestivalî in the LXX or MT (here it is the Greek word ìeorteî)ñwhich of course makes perfect sense when one realizes that it is a day of ìfastingî and not ìfeastingî! ---- Rare exception: the consensus of SDA church scholars, as seen, for example, in the official SDA Bible Commentary. There it is interpreted as [1] a Jewish annual Sabbath (such as the Day of Atonement for them or Christmas or Easter for us today), [2] a Jewish monthly religious celebration, and [3] a Jewish annual Sabbath (such as the Day of Atonement for them or Christmas or Easter for us today). Doníít laugh. Itíís true; you can check it out for yourself. Ha, ha, ha! ROFL! ROFL! Ah, youíre such a delight; I havenít laughed that hard in years! Having the SDA Commentary in front of me I see that it says nothing about Christmas or Easter. It does, quite oddly, list the Day of Atonement as one of the holy days (which it is); but having it listed under ìholydaysî (eorte in the Greek) is quite a blunder. ==== But more recently some SDA scholars have broken with this ridiculously redundant interpretation. Among them is, yes, none other than Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi of Andrews University, renowned world lecturer and author of the book FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY: A HISTORICAL INVESTIGATION OF THE RISE OF SUNDAY OBSERVANCE IN EARLY CHRISTIANITY (Rome: Pontifical Gregorian University Press: 1977). This book (which I will here abbreviate as FSS) is based on his Ph.D. dissertation at Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome where he graduated summa cum laude. In the ììAcknowledgmentsîî of FSS he admits breaking lockstep with his church: Page 6: ììIn a few places my interpretation of certain Biblical texts (such as ... Colossians 2:14-17) ... differs somewhat from the traditional position of my Church.îî Ahem! How? Here, in Bacchiocchi's own words: Page 358: ììThe Sabbath in Colossians 2:16. The sacred times prescribed by the false teachers [legalistic, 'Judiazing Christians' usually from Jerusalem] are are referred to as ëëa festival or a new moon or a sabbath ññ heortas a neomania a sabbaton' (2:16). [I know enough Greek to tell you that is New Testament Greek for ììfestival or new moon or Sabbath.] The unanimous consensus of commentators is that these three words represent a logical and progressive sequence (annual, monthly and weekly) as well as an exhaustive enumeration of the sacred times.îî Page 359: ììIt is therefore linguistically impossible to interpret the latter [ììsabbatonîî] as a reference to the Day of Atonement or to any other ceremonial sabbaths, since these are never designated simply as ëësabbatataíí [plural, or, in English, ëëSabbathsíí].îî Well, with all due respect for a former professor I think he is wrong for the reasons shown in my study. Although I should point out that the quote on page 359 is correct. === And now to answer your question: "The word in that verse 'sabbaton' means either the seventh day of the week, or a week. Are SDAíís (pastors especially) ignorant to this fact or is their purpose to deceive?!" I think that most SDA people and pastors are willfully ignorant of this fact. Well, I wouldnít be so hasty to impute motives. Although I would agree that most people are ignorant about the meaning of this verse. It is more likely that most people are unaware because it, quite frankly, takes a lot of work to uncover the truth of the matter and most people havenít been trained in how to do it! --- And it is a fact. They don't want to hear the truth. It's a characteristic of the cultified personality to be mystified by cognitive dissonance -- facts which don't agree with the convictions onto which they hang their salvation. .... [snipped] To a certain extent Iíll agree; but I should also point out that this applies to a lot of peopleñnot just SDAís! === Example from MINISTRY magazine, the official journal for all SDA ministers (at least Engish-speaking): An article by a leading SDA "thinker" about eating meat. The springboard text was Mark 7:19 NIV: "In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean." After doing all the requisite theological gyrations, the article concluded that Jesus would never have spoken against HIS OWN LAW! Referring, of course, to such Old Testament texts as Deuteronomy 8:14 NIV: "The pig is also unclean... You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses." Which article; which date; which author? Anyone who has studied pigs can tell you that pigs are unclean. If you have the chance go to a feed store and look for a large can of Dranoñon the back youíll find the instructions on how to flush out a pig. ==== And so this leading SDA "scholar" was able to literally trash Jesus' own new covenant commandment in favor of the old covenant commandment Jesus was doing away with -- "nailing it to the cross" (Colossians 2:13-17 NIV)! Actually, what Jesus nailed to the cross was the record of our sinsñany serious student of Scripture would have known the meaning of cheirographon. === Now the author of that MINISTRY article, my friend Ann, is a good example of a person who is not integrated, regardless of how many PhD's he sports on his resume! Bacchiocchi is another one, only worse, much worse. I read a transcript of a debate he had with a Bible scholar of another denomination. This other scholar figuratively waxed Bacchiocchi's tail feathers on the 2d chapter of Colossians. Which scholar is this? | ||
| Djconklin |
>>Galatians 5:14b: The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." the greek word Paul uses for "entire" (this is the NIV version quoted) is "pas" meaning: all, all things, every, all men, whosoever, everyone, whole, all manner of, every man, no, every thing, any, whatsoever, whosoever, always, daily, any thing, no, not tr,misc clearly in this context of the verse Paul means all things, whole law, all manner of law. this leaves no room for saying that the sabbath commandment or the decalogue are not part of the whole law. Whoever said that the decalogue isn't part of the law? And which law was Paul referring to here? How do you know that he is referring to all law? Has he done so elsewhere? See my study on Paul and law at my web page: http://biblestudy.iwarp.com ==== this relates back to sabbath keeping, or maintaining your salvation by commandment keeping. Does the SDA church teach this? Not in any church I've been in. === whenever i would say the two greatest commandments are 'love the lord your God will all your heart etc., love your neighbor as yourself.' my friend would say that loving God means keeping his commandments, and I would agree, but how we love God is by loving our neighbor because it says in the Bible that the one that hates his brother and loves God is a liar because how can one love God who is unseen and hate his brother who he can see? and also Jesus talks about how if you feed, clothe, visit people you are ministering to Him. Yes and no. You certainly can't honestly claim that you love God and yet hate your neighbor. But love is the motive through wwhich we can obey God's commands (all of God's commands are enablings fro He promises the power to fulfill them and He will work in you and through you to accomplish His good work that He has begun in you). === the thing the Adventist church does not realize that they are not fulfilling the law by keeping the Decalogue, but by loving their neighbor would they keep God's greatest commandments to love Him and their neighbor. One can never fulfill the Law without love. Likewise, one can't say that one loves God and ignore His explicit commands. Or, say that one loves one's neighbor and yet steals from them, lies about them, etc. === i realize that by secluding themselves away from other people, Christians and nonChristians, they are not loving their neighbors, they are loving themselves like the Jews did, and how the Jews rejected the Samarians. I don't know about the SDA's you have been with but around here we don't do that and have never done any excluding of ourselves from our neighbors. === they use Sabbath keeping and EGW, the health msg and other facets of their doctrine to validate sectioning themselves off from other people. No, the health msg doesn't section us off from anyone. In fact it has opened doors that might otherwise have been closed. For example, one of our converts used to be a Jew who was in very poor health because he wasn't following the health principles of the Bible. When this was pointed out to him he wanted to know more and became converted. Also, when my dad worked for 3M he was working at a plant in Alabama. One evening the guys decided to go to a rib joing (pork ribs that is) and as they were on the way one asked mny dad what he was going to eat because he knew we didn't eat pork. The others poo-pooed his claim that pork was unclean. But, then his boss, who was a chemical engineer, told them about a study he had done on pigs (we're all just very complex chemical factories after all). To make a long story short--they never went to the rib joint. BTW, if you ever have the chance go out into a farming community and find the feedstore and look for the large cans of Drano. On the back you'll find the instructions for flushing out a pig. Enough for now--supper time! | ||
| Maryann |
Hi David, Just took a peek at FAF and saw that you had re-appeared. Thank you for responding. I can't really get involved in any of the discussion for a couple months;-(( I'm just swamped with relocating. Glad your back. Maryann | ||
| Sherry2 |
Djconklin, half of the things you spoke against in the Clay Peck story are true realities of things Ellen White did say, and often the background of SDA's in his era too. And I have the summary from Fred Veltman too and it does say it. You will believe whatever you want to believe. Many of those quotes he mentioned are there. You must take time to study them and find them, if you really want to know that these things were said. | ||
| Sherry2 |
"Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to be peacable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whome He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. But avoid foolsih disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned." Titus 3:1-11 | ||
| Djconklin |
Sherry2, >>Djconklin, half of the things you spoke against in the Clay Peck story are true realities of things Ellen White did say, and often the background of SDA's in his era too. And I have the summary from Fred Veltman too and it does say it. You will believe whatever you want to believe. Many of those quotes he mentioned are there. You must take time to study them and find them, if you really want to know that these things were said. 1) Half if not more of what I said about Peck had nothing to do with Ellen White. 2) I have Veltmann's summary too; I'll look it up again--what was the quote we were talking about? 3) I only believe in facts nothing else. 4) I just looked at some more of Rea's "evidence" of copying -- what a bunch of nonsense it turned out to be. | ||
| Sherry2 |
His talk about no vinegar from egw, his talk of vegetarian to be ready for Jesus to come..egw...Veltman quote - look at what you wrote yourself. Bottom line, there is a very argumentative spirit here...Have you met Jesus? Do you know Him as your Lord and Savior? He loves you very much, Djconklin. So much He took your sins upons Himself - imagine that! Your Creator dying in your place! All your sins are atoned for at the Cross, DJConklin. Look upon Him, who was spat upon, who was whipped and scourged...for you. Look! He is looking at you and He wants a permament place in your heart. As your Lord, Savior, and Friend. I know I do not deserve such love. He deserves all my adoration and praise! How fortunate am I to know Him. It will definitely be a priveledge and an honor to throw my crown at His feet in heaven. I pray for you right now that your heart will be softened, and you will look upon Him who was pierced with new eyes, and believe on Him and be saved. |
