| Author | Message | ||
| Ritchie |
Hi, everyone! I am involved in a discussion on the NET programs the denomination has been doing over the last few years. I am opposed to this method for several reasons, but I am just at a loss when it comes to any hard figures on how successful this program has been. I can only speak from my own personal experience and other first hand reports. Does anyone have any input as to where I can get this information? Or, what are your thoughts on the NET programs you have witnessed or participated in in the past? | ||
| Breezy |
Ritchie, I think that if they were including the full gospel of grace instead of just Revelation seminars, it would be a fantastic method of conveying Christ's message of salvation. Imagine the results! I think if they preached the straight gospel thousands would accept Jesus in a day. And for the right reasons, not fear of judgement. God Bless, Wendy | ||
| Steve |
Ritchie, I've sent in an e-mail request for the numbers associated with the Revelation of Hope evangelism series that was done near here in LA earlier this year. I made the request directly to the Revelation of Hope website, and hope to have an answer in a few days. I agree with BreezyWendy, if they focused on the gospel thousands would come to Christ. But the focus is on having folks ascribe to the 27 fundamental beliefs rather than express a faith in Jesus Christ. That's why such a simple thing like an evangelistic crusade becomes so complex within Adventism. There's so much explaining to do and so much to hide until the right time. Having given Prophecy seminars, I know first hand from pastors that it was "critical" that certain information was not presented too early so as not to discourage the participants. That says a lot about what is being taught. If absolute unconditional forgiveness for sins and salvation in Jesus Christ was being taught, it would be bringing Good News to the desperate and weary. But the news is so bad, that it has to be orchestrated very carefully. I even remember discussions where it was highly recommended that we start our meetings in a local hotel rather in the church. Some said it was just because many people would not come to a church while they would go to a hotel conference room. But I found that practice very deceptive. We were to avoid references to Seventh-day Adventism, Ellen White, the Sabbath, unclean foods, and other distinctives, EVEN IF WE WERE SPECIFICALLY ASKED ABOUT THOSE THINGS. I guess we had a lot to hide. Steve | ||
| Ritchie |
Breezy & Steve, You guys hit the nail right on the head! But that is a big IF. How can anyone teach something that they do not have? 'Truth' and 'gospel' in SDA circles does not refer to the full gospel at all but to a collection of distinct doctrines. I've sent a couple of emails inquiring on some statistics on the NET programs to a couple of GC links. I am aware of the unbelievable cost to results ratio; I would just like to see some hard figures to back it up. | ||
| Cindy |
Steve, I really had to laugh at how you wrote above: "If absolute unconditional forgiveness for sins and salvation in Jesus Christ was being taught, it would be bringing Good News to the desperate and weary. But the news is so bad, that it has to be orchestrated very carefully." :-)) I have helped in many evangelistic series and I know for a fact how many of the evangelists don't want word let out too quickly that it is an Adventist meeting. Also, your observation is so true--about not talking about certain doctrines until the 'right' time; when the evangelist had laid all the proper groundwork first! Three years ago, our local church sponsored an Amazing Facts evangelist. We had the first 10 meetings held at the local university. I was to give the deposit of $2,500.00 to the university. I had a quick conversation with the evangelist about this one morning, saying I would take the church's check over that day. Quickly, he said, no, don't do that! we don't want them to know it's an S.D.A. event. (The S.D.A.church name would be on the check!) This was his message to the best of my recollection... He said I was to deposit the church's check in my bank and then write my own check to cover the amount so they wouldn't know who was really behind it! I kid you not! I really got off to a bad start with this evangelist because I questioned this whole procedure... we discussed and disagreed on this, and finally, as you can guess, he brought out an Ellen White quote! There is one somewhere in favor of not putting the S.D.A. name out right away because built-in prejudice may hinder people from investigating and finding 'the Truth'. So, with that EGW quote---end of discussion!! Working with the church treasurer, I did what he requested but the whole experience was not a happy one. (I've more incidents to share from that time but enough for now...) I praise God for being with me through all that NEGATIVITY... and bringing me into "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of CHRIST!" (2 Corinthians 4:6) "Therefore, since through God's mercy,we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, not do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God." (2 Corinthians 4:1&2) Always Grace Alone, Cindy | ||
| Breezy |
W-O-W Cindy no wonder you have so much trouble with the church. And if other people have had similar experiences it becomes very clear to me why You all have so many problems with the church. My goodness. I thought I had only been sheltered from worldly things being an Adventist PK. It looks like I was sheltered from Adventist things also. My dad did not do anything that could be construed as being subterfuge like that. We gave Revelation seminars all the time and the focus was righteousness by faith, not what is presented today. It is sad and pathetic what is going on in most churches. I like Des Ford's web site. His focus is very balanced and something that I can live with. Anything to do with the main church I'm going to steer away from tho'. You might be encouraged to know that alot of Adventis books right now are very grace oriented. I spent about $150 on books at campmeeting this year, and most of them are what have steered me toward a focus on grace. Just an FYI. There is hope. It is just for individuals only and most likely not the entity that is the church. Sad but true. talk to you later. Wendy | ||
| Colleentinker |
I remember doing special music at a Net 95 meetingóthe first of the satellite Nets. Richard and I were already studying our way out of Adventism, but we were still "in" it. We absolutely did not want to attend the meeting, but our playing was a personal favor for some people we loved. That was the first evangelistic meeting I had attended since I was probably 10 years old. I had an unforgettable de'javu experience, and I remember how increasingly upset I became as I listened to Mark Finley through the entire program. He ever so articulately explained some Adventist doctrinal distinctive (I actually can't remember which one!) by quoting text after text, each connected to the next in a mesmerizing ribbon of confusion. Many of the texts I recognized from my own Bible study, and I actually was able to see how he picked them out of their context and used them for his own purposeóa purpose quite different from what their actual context was. I remember feeling something like anger or frustration or some nameless combination of feelings rising inside me until I felt as if I wanted to stand up and declare, "Open your Bibles and let's read what it really says!" I had forgotten (after all, I'd only been 10 years old the last time I heard one of those meetings) how glib and seamless the deceptive arguments were. I realized with a jolt how hopeless it would be for a person who had no Bible knowledge to sit in one of those meetings. They would have no idea that the evangelist was using the texts out of context. They would have no idea that he was forcing the Bible to prove what IT DOES NOT SAY! The effect is one of great scholarship and intimate knowledge of scripture. The reality is that the Bible is being completely misused to prove untruth. My cynical self (I used to work for a well-known SDA TV evangelist) wondered who actually wrote Finley's scripts. In the TV production business (yes, even in the religious TV production business) the evangelist is called "the talent" and is surrounded by a host of behind-the-scenes professionals who write his scripts, do his make-up, design the set, and in a host of varied ways make sure he looks and sounds good. Make no mistake; Adventist TV evangelists (and others, I suspect) are not chosen necessarily because they know the Bible. They're chosen because they look and sound good and have a certain charisma which will hopefully appeal to a certain cross-section of the population. It is true that the public face of Adventism is becoming increasingly grace-oriented. This phenomenon is a good thing. The problem is the basic, underlying deception of the church is still in place, is still reflected in official doctrine, and no matter how grace-oriented an Adventist becomes, he or she is still bound spiritually to the deception of the church which limits his or her freedom. I believe that God is leading the "evangelical Adventists" slowly but surely into the fullness of his grace and freedom. He wants all of us to know and embrace truth. The Truth shall set you free! Praise Him! Colleen | ||
| Ritchie |
Hi, Colleen! Your experience with Net 95 sounds like something I've just experienced. I was at an SDA church visiting with an aunt. She asked me and my family to join her little group for lunch. As it turns out, there was a group of individuals from the community who come to the church food bank every couple of weeks and one of the conditions for receiving their rations was to sit in a Bible study. We were in the next room and could hear the preacher leading the study. It was on the Sabbath. My wife and I looked at each other as we heard the same prooftexts that we grew up with -- yeah, taken out of context. We just cringed as we heard the preacher use the same logic that actually can sound very convincing (as long as you stay within the confines of Adventist theology and reasoning). You also said that "It is true that the public face of Adventism is becoming increasingly grace-oriented." This is very true. I was talking to the pastor last Sunday about my Adventist roots and he was truly surprised to know that Adventists were not grace-oriented as a denomination. Another member said that he thought that Adventists were cool, that they just worship on a different day. I had to explain that Adventists are quite diverse in their understanding of salvation and that the distinctive teachings of the church contradict the biblical understanding of righteousness by faith. I have come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a 'grace-oriented Adventist'. It's like saying 'I am a good thief'! This is an oxymoron. An "Adventist" to me is one that adheres to the distinctive beliefs that identify the Adventist church. You cannot mix grace with doctrines such as the Sanctuary, Investigative Judgement, or the Law. I used to call myself an evangelical Adventist but at the same time in my own mind I was redefining the meaning of "Adventist". 'Grace-oriented Adventists' in reality are evangelical Christians who come from an Adventist background who opt to retain the Sabbath teaching and other practices for reasons other than a requirement for salvation. | ||
| Breezy |
Ritchie, That is a good way of putting it. That is exactly where I am coming from. I don't feel like I have to ditch the sabbath, wear jewelry, and take up eating pork, just because I discovered grace. I choose to remain an Adventist, probably in the loosest sense of the word. I just have a whole lot more hope now than I did. Praise the Lord! Wendy | ||
| Sherry2 |
Cindy, I hear you on the evangelistic series and keeping it a secret it is SDA throughout the meeting. That is the only way it's done here in Michigan. At least any I've helped with and many I know about. You know what though, Cindy? It appears that the people of other churches need to be involved in indepth Bible study on a regular basis, and then maybe they wouldn't get dooped when they come to a Rev. seminar that they don't have a clue is SDA till so many meetings into it. I wish every pastor on Sunday/or Sat. mornings would honestly affirm to the conversation the Berean church's way, and to always study the Bible thoroughly to see what things are true. | ||
| Cindy |
Sherry2, I agree... many people have no clue as to how to interpret the Bible; and if they don't see Christ as the absolute center, focus, and whole goal of Scripture these evangelists can really sound authoritative and true. A study of how God deals with his people through the Covenants needs to be known. How the Prophecies and Promises of Scripture are all fulfilled in Jesus is essential, along with how the Old Testament and New are not equal when it comes to defining doctrines (Sabbath, tithe, etc.), but an unfolding revelation that reaches it's fulfillment in Jesus' life, death, and resurrection FOR US!! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Steve |
Hi All, Here are some numbers regarding recent Net Evangelism. I received this information today from Roger Morton, Director of Public Relations, at It Is Written International Television. The seventh ACTS 2000, Revelation of Hope, was satellited from Buena Park, CA to 600 sites throughout North America. There were around 50,000 viewers, with 18,000 non-Adventist guests. Based on site reports, it is estimated that there were right at 5,000 baptisms. In the first six ACTS 2000 satellite evangelistic crusades (uplinked from Manila, Kumasi, Sao Paulo [sp], Bucharest, Santiago and Madras) there have been 1.3 million viewers and more than 111,000 baptisms. (Mr. Morton does not give dates for these first six international crusades.) As typical, the effort in North America seem to fade in comparison to the results seen in international efforts. However, realize that the results from Mr. Morton seem to indicate over a 25% baptismal rate (of the non-Adventists attending), which seems to be fairly high for efforts I've heard of in the U. S. I'm curious as to the opinions folks have as to these numbers. Could the North American numbers be higher? If so, those results say two things to me: 1) Many in North America are not spiritually hungry, 2) The SDA church is not meeting the needs of those that ARE spiritually hungry. It is presenting a "different gospel" and people are not accepting all the beasts, sabbaths, foods, judgments, etc. that are presented. People are dying for the unadulterated gospel of grace. (Of course, this is speculation on my part.) Internationally, Mr. Morton did not indicate to me how many non-Adventists were included in that 1.3 million viewership. This indicates at LEAST a 10% result (and that number could be higher, assuming a number of Adventists in the audience). I'm curious as to what folks think of the international efforts. Steve | ||
| Colleentinker |
Steve, this information makes me think of a person I've spoken to who is a good friend of one of my dear friends. (Is that convoluted enough?) At any rate, this person is the son of an Adventist preacher from one of the South American countries whose pastorate has always been (or at least much of it has been) in poor communities. According to this person, his pastor-father says that most people in the third world (at least in his S. American environment) who become Adventists do so because it is a way to become middle class. When a poor third-worlder becomes Adventist, he or she suddenly becomes clean and clothed in Western clothes. Jobs within the church begin to open to them, and they begin to live on a higher economic plane. Education becomes available to them, and they can raise educated kids who can get even better jobs. According to this source, the boom of third-world Adventism is no mystery. It's quite simply a really good economic choice, and people become Adventist not so much because they BELIEVE as that they want to improve their style of life. Perhaps this phenomenon helps exlplain why Adventism isn't booming in the USA. After Net 95, one small local SDA cburch near us had about ten baptisms. Within a year only one of those ten was still attending church, and he was handicapped and attending mainly because he got rides from a concerned member family. His life style did not look Adventist. After a few more months, he also quit attending. It would be interesting to know attrition rates for the numbers above. You're right: people are dying for the unadulterated gospel of grace. Praising God for grace, Colleen | ||
| Billthompson |
Colleen, Great thoughts. I have also wondered about how true the membership numbers are. How many are actually, active members? I know I got a letter from the SDA church of my childhood several years after I had requested my membership be removed. In their letter to me they mentioned that I was still a member (a big surprise to me) and questioned me about my tithe and ingathering goal, etc. I wrote back reminding them that I had requested my name be removed years ago and was now actively involved in another church. I still have not heard anything back either way. I left them and joined another church 21 years ago. I wonder if they still count me in their official "numbers". Oh, one other funny (sad) thing that happened about the same time I got that letter from my old home church, the pastor of the SDA church near where I was now living (another state from my old home church) came to visit me at my office. He wanted to know if I wanted to transfer my membership from my old home church to his. I still have SDA family members and some of them were members of his church, this must be where he was getting his info. Anyway, I told him the same thing I had written to my old home church, that I was an active member of another church. I am in a health care field and work most Saturdays. He would not take no for an answer and stressed my need to return to the "remnant" church. He said it was no problem that I could not attend church on Saturday, "Just transfer your membership and begin paying your tithe...you can mail it in, if you like!" I laughed...he was not amused, but did not give up there. He continued to drop into my office without an appointment. I was nice for a while but finally had to tell him not to waist his time. Just how true are those membership numbers? Bill Thompson | ||
| Colleentinker |
Exactly my question, Bill! Colleen | ||
| Darrell |
Speaking of the membership numbers game, I know of a church that has cleared names of inactive members from the rolls in order to reduce the churches share of the subsidy to the local church school. Unfortunately, it is a fact of life that fallen human behavior is often motivated by money. | ||
| Steve |
Excellent, Darrell. You've coined a phrase that is a paraphrase of another individual that has posted considerably on this site. I'm referring to Max. I hope I quote him correctly here. If not, I'd appreciate any correction anyone may have. He said, "In SDAism, theology is economically driven." What you've just said, mirrors that in the practical life of the church. It's sad, but apparently true. Steve | ||
| Breezy |
Steve, I don't know of any church that isn't like that. I like the Pauline way of tithing, I know I learned it somewhere here. Giving as the spirit moves you. Giving to your child's education. The homeless man on the street. The single mother with no money for diapers. No you won't get a tax deduction, but I bet you'll get something even more special. Loving the Lord and spreading it, Wendy | ||
| Bmorgan |
In the developing countries, (political correctness) there are always "efforts" evangelistic meetings. Baptisms are high yes, but count the number of children and or non tithe paying members. People are attracted to the church because of the emphasis and value placed on education, and it gives them an apparent better way of life. Through the schools, many children are baptized. Non christians don't mind teenagers "joining church" it's an alternative to rebellion. Church is still the social center in those countries. Youth have an outlet and opportunity to develop socially and intelletually.They use leadership skills and musical talent. However, they come of age, and it is a different story. Fear, guilt and legalism keep the vast majority in a bondage. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Bmorgan, thank you for your insight. Knowing that church is "still the social center in those countries" really helps explain what's happening. And thank you for correcting my political correctness gaffe! Colleen |
