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Archive through August 11, 2000Allenette20 8-11-00  9:26 pm
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Maryann
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 10:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Sherry,

Allenette has a heart so big that I don't know how in the world she carries it around;-)) Really!

In fact, getting her attention is quite an honor! If not a down right "feat"! Really!
Chyna
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 11:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

dear allenette,

the one thing God requires of us is faith. He doesn't require us to believe in something that is false or totally illogical, but He still has us make a step in our own lives. until we do that, we will be blind.

anyway, i meant that since demons are not given as much credence in the U.S. they are not as likely to manifest in that manner. whereas the more superstitious cultures (like asia) do give demons more credence and therefore it is easy for the demons to play upon their fear. my aunt was strangled by a demon in indonesia.

i said what i meant. demons work here among us too. in more subtle ways. Satan's work is to keep people from knowing God. if people do become saved, Satan's work is to keep us as far away from God as possible in unfaithfulness to Him. I believe Satan has worked well in dividing the church because if you know the power of prayer, the church when it is united in prayer is a mighty spiritual force. in other parts of the world they help perpetuate false religions (and you know i do mean everything other than Christianity), or keep people in fear.

demons tend to work in things like ouija boards, and 'seers' and mysticism. my church has always cautioned us not to make our minds totally blank so that they can be taken ahold of.

if you can please read the book if possible. it's not an urban legend, it is a very real story of what happened, and you can try to explain it without God, but then you'd be missing out the integral piece that made it all happen.

coz i believe i could try to convince you, but for naught because until you are open in your heart nothing will sway you. and i *know* people will say it's a cop-out, but a heart that opens to God is the one that sees God.

love, Chyna
Chyna
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 11:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

also, according to the Bible, Lucifer was the highest ranking of all the angels, and very powerful.

one of the best successes Satan has had so far is downplaying his power, he is after all the father of lies.

as to good and evil. i do believe that satan and his demons go around trying to kill off the gospel. if you'll see in history, Antiochus Epiphanes tried to destroy the Jewish religion before the Messiah could be born. Jesus had a slew of prophecies that needed to be associated with the Jewish religion. Secondly, there was a mad/insane queen that ruled Judah that tried to kill all of her grandchildren, but one aunt hid Joash. There I see Satan trying to destroy the line that Jesus was to be born from.

not only did my ex-b/f couldn't give me a clear testimony, but he also said he believed that people from other religions would be in heaven also.

anyhow, so Satan and his minions do their work, but there is also evil in the heart of man. when i look at mankind i see we all have the capacity for great evil.

what always made me so mad in school were the people whom 'biology' had gotten into their philosophy. basically they just said, "everything that you do is decided by your genes" meaning that all you want to do is procreate and insure that your genes are passed on.

in Him, Chyna
Allenette
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 8:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

MaryAnn: thanks for the kind words :-)

How does the saying go? "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still?"

I really really did NOT want to 'pick a fight' and still dont. It has been pointed out to me elsewhere, that MOST (I'd use italics rather than caps but I havent figured out the formatting techniques on here yet boo hoo) people get their religion from their parents; that is to say, IN MOST INSTANCES, whatever indoctrination you receive as a child, is the one you remain comfortable with.

IOW, if you were born and raised Muslim, you would be most comfortable with that belief system.
Pointing out inconsistences to a grown-up Muslim is a fairly useless exercise which I think I'll extend into this instance.

Chyna, BTW, Regarding the Jewish Messiah: Altho Christians believe their Messiah (who was Jewish)has come; Jews, remember, are still WAITING. ;-)

Do you believe that more than one religion will be in heaven? Without getting into dialogue about "heaven" itself, hypothetically speaking, I would suggest there would be. Perhaps you could list the religions that WONT be there? ;-)
Maryann
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Allenette,

I limit my "kind words" to about once a year:-)) And I used them on you!????LOL

Can't think of a better recipient than you;-))

:=))
Sherry2
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 2:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Allenette, you said "How does the saying go? "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still?"
Well said.
Chyna
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 3:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the problem with the Jewish people still waiting for the Messiah to come is that in fire all of the historical documents in the temple were destroyed, i think they all had their genealogy (sp?) there. the Messiah through prophecy has to come through the line of David, but that is no longer known (conveniently) because all the records are gone. so a forthcoming 'messiah' could not prove himself messiah by fulfilling the prophecies of the OT because there no longer is evidence for him to fulfil it. the first chapter of Matthew is a complete genealogy of Jesus Christ to show the Jews that Jesus was descended from David's like.

:) Chyna
Chyna
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

if one does the study of prophecy about the Messiah in the OT, and then see how Jesus Christ fulfilled all the prophecies, there would be no mistaking whether He is the Son of God.

in fact, in the Psalms it describes His death before crucifixtion was even invented by the Romans.
Breezy
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 3:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chyna, I hate to say it but you're sounding awfully Adventist. Albeit with a different name on it. This proves that none of these religions is better than the other, just major focus on different doctrines. I sense you are about to run into a brick wall... :)

Love,
Wendy
Bruceh
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 5:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry

----I do believe in demons, or the Bible should be
quoting Jesus simply telling the wildman to be
healed, and other instances that he cast out
demons.----

I believe you are dead right Sherry if you do not
believe in deamons then you do not believe that
the Bible is the word of God.

Do not be afraid of your belief of the Bible and
what is says be confident in it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bruce Heinrich


BH
Allenette
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 7:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bruce: (this is TOTALLY off topic but came to me while I was trying to get to sleep last night, realizing what a really small world SDA is) Do you have any female relatives named Sonya? This is a totally serious question...as the above named person was one of my academy dean's name in the 70's in North Dakota....just wondered?? Hope you'll reply :-)

Cheers, Allenette
Chyna
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 8:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

dear wendy,

I am only saying what we do know. we do know that the documents of genealogy have been destroyed and we do know that the Messiah must have the correct lineage. if you mean legalism by adventism, I must say i disagree that it is legalistic to merely state historical facts.

also there is a thing that proves one religion is better than the rest: Christianity is the only religion that says that your salvation is not dependent on the good works you do in life :).

Chyna
Breezy
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 9:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chyna,
Misunderstanding. I am saying that the Baptist beliefs sound an awful lot like,are similar in nature to, Adventism. In that the posts farther above(not the one you refer to) sound very familiar to me as stuff I have learned. The brick wall I referred to is the one that I feel like you could run into on this forum, much as I did awhile ago. I did not mean my post in a derogatory manner at all! :) Just this little thought that crossed my mind. I agree with all of the above that you posted regarding demonology, etc.

Take care and God Bless!
Wendy
Bruceh
Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 7:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Allenette

---Bruce: (this is TOTALLY off topic but came to
me while I was trying to get to sleep last night,
realizing what a really small world SDA is) Do you
have any female relatives named Sonya? This is a
totally serious question...as the above named
person was one of my academy dean's name in the
70's in North Dakota....just wondered?? Hope
you'll reply :-)

Yes I believe that that is one of my relatives.
My family comes from Gackel North Dakota, I will
ask my parents about her, she is a second or third
cousine.

Bruce Heinrich


BH
Allenette
Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 3:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bruce: Thanks in advance! You can email me if you'd rather my email is josh1497@aol.com. I'd certainly love to find out whatever happened to her. Yes, Gackel does ring a bell now that you mention it. ggg When she was our dean, she was dating a violin player from Union college.

(BTW my mom's side of the family is from Bowden/Carrington ND) What a small world :-) And I've lived in Max, and Bismarck.

AND NOW----> back to the thread (sorry for the interruption) ;-))
Patti
Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 6:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chyna, you wrote:
also there is a thing that proves one religion is better than the rest: Christianity is the only religion that says that your salvation is not dependent on the good works you do in life :).

Patti:
You are absolutely right, Chyna! Thank you for stating it so precisely!
Lori
Posted on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 6:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Didn't know exactly where to place this:

But is goes very much in line with "what young Adventist don't know"

A friend, that I have know since I was 5 years old called me yesterday....to tell me how happy she is and to tell me the "good news"--she is going to be rebaptized in the SDA church. She didn't know that I had left the church and I wasn't sure what to tell her. I did tell her that I left the church over doctrinal beliefs...she was surprised to say the least. When she asked for specifics....just about everything I told her about she didn't have a clue.....she doesn't know what Adventist really believe, she doesn't know the 27 fundamental beliefs. She only knows that she is working on her relationship with Christ. I was surprised that she knew as little as she did about the doctrines, granted she has been in and out of the church over the last decade and a half, but I finally realized why she doesn't know the doctrines...she only came to S.S. and she left the Adventist school system at the 4th grade. She missed all the "indoctrinal" years, she missed the tests taken from strictly memorizing EW's writings. It makes me wonder, if people don't "come out" of Adventism with an "ok" view point IF they don't go through the school system and if they don't ever study their S.S. lessons. My friend grew up in an Adventist family all her life, just like I did, with two differences...she wasn't schooled in the Adventist system and her parents weren't active in the church, they just attended church. She has no idea, what she is rebaptizing herself into. The only thing that I mentioned to her that she understood clearly as an Adventist doctrine was the state of the dead. Over the phone, she seemed genuinely interested in finding out the answers....but if the only thing she does is to take her questions to the SDA pastor....she'll never find the truth. Hopefully, I will be able to correspond with her somewhat regularly....last night I did ask her if she believed that the work of Jesus Christ on the cross was all that was needed for her salvation. --She doesn't know what Adventist believe concerning salvation-- She did mention the Sabbath, that she kept it--so I asked her--if you didn't the Sabbath would you still be saved. She didn't know--

I haven't heard from this person in several years.....I was surprised she called me now to tell me of her re-dedication--I know if I allow the Holy Spirit to work through me, that I can give to her the words of the truth that she needs to hear. Our conversation ended with her saying--you have brought up a lot of questions in my mind.

I suppose my concern is: she is a person who really doesn't know what SDA believe. I'm not sure I know how to approach this. My study has been from the aspect of someone "who knew" what Adventists believe. Of the things that I mentioned to her, the fact that EGW was a plagerist, a time setter and the texts that said these people were not of God, seemed to have a real impact. She does understand that the foundation for the SDA was the writings of EGW. But like most 'new' Adventist, she says her church doesn't use EGW writings in anything. I told her they were still there, the source was just no longer identified.

Have any of you dealt with someone in a similar circumstance? She asked me to email her some of the things that I had told her about, so she could study them for herself.....on thinking about it I feel that just exposing the doctrines of the church and using scripture to show the contradictions would be easier for her to deal with since she really doesn't know what SDA believe. Any suggestions as to where to start first?
Dan_2
Posted on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 10:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori, in my experience your thinking to "just exposing the doctrines of the church" would be the easier, especially for someone who has little knowlege of SDA beliefs. One book that you might consider is "The Kinddom of the Cults" by Martin which is highly respected in Christian circles. He has a great chapter on Adventism which helps to explain their differences with the rest of Christianity.

Keep us posted on how God uses you to reach this friend!--Dan S.
Billthompson
Posted on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 2:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori,

In my experince, it is best to stick with the Gospel, God's plan of salvation by Grace and not works. Go over and over this very basic concept with her using Scripture to back it up. Beat her SDA pastor to the punch by also quoting the seemingly contradicting passages in James or the Sermon on the Mount. Tell her Scripture can not contradict itself or it is unreliable. Then explain that these are not in fact contradictions and tell her why. I'd be glad to help with this if need be. I have dealt with it many times over the past 21 years since I left SDAism.

The Basics of the Gospel are crucial. If we only succeed in driving a searching person away from the SDA church but never present the Good News, we have done them a great disservice.

This is true for any person who has no assurance of their own salvation and are searching for answers whether there is a SDA connection or not. Most will want to discuss diverse subjects, "was Jonah really swallowed by a whale?", "was the flood real?", all sorts of rabbit trails you can waist precious time on. For SDAs it will almost always be the sabbath rabbit trail, and waisting too much time there is a big shame when the person does not even understand the basics of salvation by grace and not works.

Once the person sees the truth of the Gospel, is born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, there is a level of dissernment that makes many of these peripheral, nonsalvation issues seem to fall into place. Sabbath debates are endless and fruitless with one who does not personally know Christ as Saviour.

A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone,
Bill Thompson
Denisegilmore
Posted on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 7:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori,
I can understand this question you have raised as currently I have a best friend who is 84 years old that was in the schools since childhood and faithful to the Church (sda) for all these years. Just a few weeks ago she had stated something that really really made my heart sink. She 'hoped' she is saved but not sure. At this, I couldn't help but tell her the beautiful Truth as it is clearly stated in the Bible. I started by telling her the Gospel in it's simplicity. From there, I wrote a list of Scripture that shows the Gospel Truth. Today, she asked me how my study went today with the jws and I explained how they will come tomorrow but that I am prepared to defend Truth. I also pointed out a notepad with my writing on it, full of Scriptures and my comments, that proves Jesus is not Michael the Archangel. At this, she took great interest and said that she would like to study that with me. As you can imagine, I was very happy to hear those words from her. She is completely oblivious to the teachings of the sda Church and yet had gone all her life through the sda school system and to Church. I'm finding that the Gospel is not known to many in the sda Church and for that matter, neither are these other doctrines that you mention. Oh sure, they are taught but they are taught with just enough Truth that the heresy does not stand out to the majority of sda. At least this is the case of 4 out of 5 people I'm currently dealing with.
When I have mentioned in passing to my friend that I cannot believe nor ever will, that Jesus didn't go to the right hand of the Father, she says, 'who said that?' This gives evidence of her not realizing that the very Church she is attending teaches this. I explain that this is what the sda Church teaches. She gives me a funny look and explains that she knows of no such teaching. Amazing. I point out other things in passing and those too are something she is clueless to. So, I pray that the Holy Spirit will continue working on her heart as He has been because she truly is amazed to learn what her Church teaches and cannot understand why they would teach that. In other words, her heart knows better but the fact that it's 'her Church, her faith' etc. she has chosen to ignore these teachings growing up. Although they are there in her memory and that will come popping out too. Only she has no idea that it isn't a Bible Truth so I point it out in Scripture and she is scratching her head wondering where she got the idea that she had. I explain, it was taught to you all your life.
She is now wanting to learn from the Bible only. Her heart is very open but she is very confused because she has these beliefs in her head that are not Biblical but doesn't reckonize that she learned all those non Biblical teachings from her own Church.
Now she is searching Scripture and asking questions. Praise God!
God bless you Lori and I'm sorry for rambling somewhat nonsensical in this post. Just overly tired perhaps.
Denise

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