| Author | Message | ||
| Patrick |
I became an Adventist mostly due to a conviction on the issue of the Sabbath, and as a matter of convinience. (An explination of that would require a small auto-biography that I will spare you.) My concern, my question, is...... Even though I still have convictions about the Sabbath I do not feel that I can remain in the SDA church due to several of it's doctrines and of course it's prophetess, priestess, godess, whatever they are treating her as, at the moment. Here's the problem. I still feel that the 4th commandment is just as important as the other 9. I have never observed the Sabbath perfectly, at least not in my mind, however, I believe that it's observance is still important to God. Just as important as not committing adultery, not stealing, not murdering, not worshiping false gods, etc. What to do? As it is, the SDA's are the only sabbatarians in this very small town, and we are only a mission to the home congregation 70 miles away. Also, even if I do find another denomination that worships on the Sabbath, I don't want to get involved again in a denomination that makes the Sabbath their focus. I want Jesus. I want the blood. I want salvation. I know my salvation is in Jesus and not the observance of a day but still, obedience out of love just seems right. I would appreciate some input on this matter. Thank you. Much love & prayers. Pat. | ||
| Patti |
Hi, Pat! Thank you for your words which obviously emanate from your heart. Far be it from me to tell you that you must give up the sabbath. If you are so convicted, then follow your conscience. However, having said that, let me say that Paul gives Gentile Christians the option to observe days or not: Romans 14: 1 Welcome those who are weak in faith, but not for the purpose of quarreling over opinions. 2 Some believe in eating anything, while the weak eat only vegetables. 3 Those who eat must not despise those who abstain, and those who abstain must not pass judgment on those who eat; for God has welcomed them. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on servants of another? It is before their own lord that they stand or fall. And they will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make them stand. 5 Some judge one day to be better than another, while others judge all days to be alike. Let all be fully convinced in their own minds. 6 Those who observe the day, observe it in honor of the Lord. Also those who eat, eat in honor of the Lord, since they give thanks to God; while those who abstain, abstain in honor of the Lord and give thanks to God. 7 We do not live to ourselves, and we do not die to ourselves. Colossians 2:16, 17 16 Therefore do not let anyone condemn you in matters of food and drink or of observing festivals, new moons, or sabbaths. 17 These are only a shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Jesus Christ is the Reality of which the sabbath (and all of the Mosaic law--Hebrews 10) was a shadow. There is nothing inherently wrong with observing the shadows, as long as one realizes that all things have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ, which you have indicated that you do. May God bless you and continue to lead you into all Truth, Grace and peace always, Patti | ||
| Bmorgan |
Patrick, Grace and peace to you from the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I hear your heart. Patti, gave sound biblical advice and encouragement. My husband and I (to a lesser degree) had a hard time with the sabbath issue ourselves. For a while we were bewildered about where we would worship. Sunday was out of the question. We stayed home, and sometimes met with friends. However, my husband realized how bitter he was becoming. (His reaction to SDAism.) A wise christian friend counselled him to not withdraw from church fellowship. He told my husband, it would be best to attend a "good" church fellowship, take the core basic doctrines, and leave the debatables. This was the beginning of a breakthrough for my husband. God has done some amazing things within our family. Massive heart transplant. We are in an environment where we witness and experience the life changing reality of Jesus christ in our lives. We experience much joy in worshipping and our focus is Christ. We kept carefully Sabbath twenty six years, but have never felt the closeness of His Presence in our lives as we do now. I understand your dilemma about not wanting to disobey God and dishonor the Sabbath. It is much, much more that physical and mental rest on the 7th day of the week. My advise, is that you worship the Lord as you are convinced he is leading your heart. However, until you find a church that worship on sabbath where you feel more comfortable to fellowship, do not deprive yourself of a great blessing, being with other believers. First, ask God to lead you a group of spiritual mature believers, where you can learn and grow in grace and a knowledge of Christ. Then check out the churches in your area and observe their attitude and teachings.Let the Lord direct you. Watch for what God will be doing in your heart as you seek to worship Him Alone. Don't limit yourself by allowing fear to dominate. Blessings to you. In Christ Alone BMorgan | ||
| Patti |
Dear BMorgan, Thank you for your words. You give good advice! We must allow the Holy Spirit to lead. Certainly, Pat, since the Spirit lead you to the acceptance of the Gospel of grace, you can trust Him to lead you in the peripheral issues. And lead you He will. We have been promised. God bless! Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Sherry2 |
Patrick, thanks for sharing some of your story. I recently left the church back this past May. I understand your dilemma. One day at a time and focused on Jesus, continually studying and digging deeper was how I worked it and still work it. As long as you are convicted on Sabbath, it is wise to continue there. One thing I also got from Paul's writing and even though it is in regards to clean and unclean foods, I think it has a wider range of meaning, don't go against your conscience for then you are not doing whatever in faith and are guilty. While I wrestled with Sabbath, that is the attitude I take. When my folks were studying these last two months, they learned a lot and moved away from those doctrines that were harmful, but Sabbath was still an issue, and I just told them that was fine, keep studying, keep looking to Jesus. I attended both Sabbath-keeping and Sunday churches, and just allowed myself to enjoy the rich fellowship out there, and also to help break down prejudisms that had entered my life too. I have one main home church now, but I still visit others frequentyly to learn more, meet new people. It's been a glorious walk. Again, thanks for sharing. | ||
| Patrick |
I'm not trying to make this my own personal crisis forum, but....... I posted elsewhere on this forum that I had sent my ex-SDA-pastor an e-mail stating that I was withdrawing my membership from the SDA church. An e-mail followed from the pastor, naturally, stating his concern and that he would like to visit. Following that e-mail came another, which stated that he, (the pastor), felt that their were three major problems that were assailing me, (not an exact quote), 1) my marrige to a non-Christian wife, I believe he stated it as family problems. This is true. I have had alot of difficulty in my marrige during my attempt at a Christian walk, and alot of problems in my Christian walk during my attempt at marrige. However, when I attempted to speak with this particular pastor on this matter, he simply stated that I had a "rich mission field." That was it. He then got into his vehicle and drove back to his home congregation 70 miles away. I only broached the subject once again and that was to tell him about my disappointment in his first response. Also, my zeal for God & church probably didn't make it to easy on my family either. (Remember that first year or so, when you thought you had found something no one else knew about?) 2) My smoking. Again true. I have no excuse for this behavior. I do believe, however, that early in my Adventism I held the belief that though smoking was displeasing to God, If I submitted, prayed and grew, God would allow that this issue would be dealt with in His time. However, I received the Adventist health message on this issue, from this pastor, and the pressure was on. In fact I would go as far as to say that my salvation was tied to this issue through SDA doctrine. I've been smoking for about 23 years. Believe me I'd truly like to quit, with or without being an Adventist. Now this may sound like just a weak excuse to go on pleasing the flesh but, since I got the low down, (put down?), from the pastor, I can't imagine not smoking. In fact my smoking has increased. I feel now, as though every time I try to quit, and there have been lots of tries, I'm trying to do it on my own strength so I can be pleasing to God. Yep! That's right I can change myself to please God so that He won't have to. I guess I was doing God a favor.???????????????????????????????????????????? Maybe that's a bunch of hooey, but in retrospect it seems to have gotten worse rather than better, after hearing the "health message" on that particular matter. 3) He had heard that I have been involved in internet chat rooms. I never kept it a secret and I'm not sure why someone told him this?????? However, I find it a little insulting that he, the pastor, doesn't seem to think that I can think. Evidently, without so much as talking to me about it, he has decided that I was somehow brain washed via the internet, and now renounce the SDA church, because of it. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact most,if not all of the chat rooms I was involved in, (prior to this forum) were SDA chats. I must admit though, some of these chats did influence my decision. The contention and out right hostility of many of these people really got me to wondering how they could claim to be God's people. Rarely did they use scripture as reference, (EGW prevailed over scripture), and if you dared to disagree with them and purport Christ alone was enough for salvation, well..... you might as well douse yourself with gasoline and light up so you could begin roasting now..... excuse me, be destroyed now, rather than later. In other Christian clubs the subject never came up. So even though I did not find this forum until I had already made my decision to become a former Adventist, you all bear the responsibility of me becoming a heathen. Sorry! What really got me was that after listing these "problem areas" and even stating that faith in Christ alone is our salvation, he seemed to tie salvation to being a member of the SDA church. I don't get it???????? Anyway, I've really rambled here and I didn't mean to. Your questions, comments, advice and prayers are solicited and appreciated. Peace. Soli Christis | ||
| Susan |
Patrick, Let me first say that you are a beloved child of God. "How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him." 1John 3:1 I'm appauled but not surprised by this pastor's treatment. If you want my honest opinion, I would not meet with him. From what you've described of him, a meeting would probablly prove futile and hurtful. He'll get over it. As for the smoking thing, he's full of poppycock! Sorry for my attitude, that's just how I feel. I know MANY fine saved Christians who happen to smoke. Sure it's not healthy, but overeating isn't either. Have you ever been to Europe? Tons of Christians are smoking away over there. The churches are even equipped with ash trays! I've seen it for myself on several occasions. My prayers will be with you for sure. In Christ alone, Susan | ||
| Sherry2 |
Patrick, God bless you. My first question is are you currently looking for other bodies of believers to fellowship with? Look for a grace-based church that you can see and feel the love between each other and active love and outreach to the world proclaiming the gospel. Sometimes I was going to two different churches on Sunday, just so I could visit as many as possible and get a feel for things. Pray, pray, pray for God's will and to show you where He wants you to go. Remember that it's not your job to make your pastor understand your position. He probably won't. Your responsibility is to God and Him alone. He will make the changes in you. If you meet a grace-based pastor that just impresses you with his love for God, talk to him about where you're at and what's going on. I took the opportunity to do that and was blessed to find out that this pastor's grandmother was a former SDA who got out and began a ministry helping people get out of cultish religions. That was a "wow" to me. Really neat. Patrick, I have got this letter I've just got to share with you. I pray it blesses you as much as it did me. Read it outloud to yourself too. I've put your name in the blanks. He loves you so very much and your lovely wife as well. He will do wonders in your life! Here's the letter:My dearest Patrick, I love you! I shed My Own blood for you --- to make you clean. Please do not call common and unclean what I have called clean. You are a new creature "in Me", and you must learn to live in My strength. You are lovely in My eyes, and I created you to be just as you are. Do not criticize yourself for not being perfect in your own eyes. This will only lead to frustration. I want you to trust Me, Patrick, one step, one day at a time. Center your life around Me and My finished work for you. Know that I love you, and be free to be yourself. Do not allow other people to control you. I will guide you, if you let Me. Be aware of My presence in everything that comes into your life. I will give you love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control as you trust Me. Look to Me for answers to life's problems. I am your shepherd and I will lead you. Follow Me only! Do not forget this. Listen, as you read my Word and I will tell you My will. Never forget, Patrick, that I love you. I love you, and want to bless you. My love has been poured out into your heart by the Holy Spirit Whom I have given you. Allow that love to spill over into every area of your life. Do not be concerned with yourself; you are My responsibility. I will change you without you being aware of it. You are to respect yourself and love others, because I love you! Take your eyes off yourself, Patrick. Be confident in My love. Look only to Me. I lead; I change; I mold, but not when you are trying. I will not fight against your efforts, so stop your efforts. Let me have the joy of making you like Myself. Let Me love you! Let Me give you happiness. No one else can. You see, Patrick, you are not your own. You have been bought with My blood, and now you belong to Me. And I love you, just because you are Mine. It is really none of your business how I deal with you. Your only command is to keep looking to Me, keep trusting Me. Never look to yourself. Never look to others. This will only lead to disappointment. Do not struggle; do not fight; do not rebel; just TRUST Me. I know what is best for you, and I will do it in you. How I long for you to allow Me to love you freely. My will is perfect! My love is sufficient. My power is more than sufficient to supply your every need. I love you. Your Lord Jesus | ||
| Sherry2 |
Well I don't agree with the smoking. Being part of AA for years and other things, a drug is a drug is a drug. And if I'm a slave to it, I'm not living with the freedom Christ gave. That freedom is found in Him. So that brings me to this web site, Patrick. I lead a small group in this ministry. Very good website for an awesome 12-step Christ centered ministry. At least check it out. You can e-mail Leo there and he can maybe give you some help there. Go to http://www.livingfreeministry.org/ God bless. Love ya all! | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patrick, I used to smoke years ago and quit cold turkey and never went back to it. It was VERY hard and to this day, 20 years later, I miss the routine of tapping the pack, popping one out, tapping it on the steering wheel or what ever, rolling it around between my lips and lighting up. I just can't see where smoking is any worse than being a workaholic or over eating for example?! Don't beat yourself up about it! AND DON'T LET ANYONE ELSE! Your body belongs to God, take care of it. Pray that God will help you and do something about it. Quit. I'm sure you have quit before and it is much easier said than done. A friend of mine went through the "from non-christian to a pastor" in about 5 years. He just couldn't quit!! He quit and prayed and prayed and quit a zillion times. My SDA background made me very openly critical of him. But, his loving attitude,love for Christ and the ministry was a wonderful example to me. I talked to him a year or so ago and he announced that "GOD" had taken the smoking away from him. Why did God wait so long? I don't have a clue! Same with you, all in God's time, but, you still need to continue to make an effort to quit if you are convicted that you should. :):):).......Maryann | ||
| Susan |
Sherry2, I'm sorry if my comments about smoking were a bit harsh or out-of-line. I was only refering to the pastor implying, that smoking was a hindrance to Patrick's spiritual life. We all have some kind of hindrance in our life. What is so utterly distressing to me is, that a pastor would attach salvation to the whole smoking issue. I'm sorry, but that's inexcusable! There are some wonderful Christians in my family, who happen to be smokers. I get on them all the time, because I certainly think it's unhealthy. No hard feelings I hope. Love in Christ, Susan | ||
| Lydell |
Good point Maryann. How often do we as Christians unconciously reveal that we have a mindset that someone else's sin is far worse than our own? Sin is sin. That's all there is to it. I don't have an addiction to nicotine, but please don't leave a plate of brownies in my home! I can't say no! When we finally wised up and decided that we would ask the Lord to lead us to a church.....and would actually accept His answer whatever it was, He lead us the first week to a church. But our first step was to go to a neighborhood Bible study as that was the only thought that occurred to us to try. You know, when we pulled up in the parking lot we saw several folks outside smoking. And my little all-too-SDA-still brain immediately kicked in and said, "WELL! We are OBVIOUSLY in the wrong place here!" God's immediate answer was, "oh really? These are people I love. How dare you judge one of my children!" Ouch! That really hurt! Up till that point I had no idea I had brought that little old attitude along with me. You know what we found that night? People who immediately accepted us and loved us. Folks who understood that when they prayed GOD was listening to them. Over time we learned that at least 3 of the folks there had just been set free from addiction to much stronger drugs than nicotine. One had just gotten out of jail shortly before. One was a brand new, days old Christian. In comparison to the other battles the Lord was fighting in their lives, nicotine was no where near the top of His list for them! Over time, I know that two of those folks were freed from cigarettes at their baptisms. One of them now has a very active ministry to addicts and an awesome testimony. And two of the folks have probably the most open serving hearts of anyone you are likely to meet. So everyone there that night had a thing or two to teach us, I think. So see, Bill, the Lord has done some serious stretching to get us where we are. By the way, on the way there that night we had prayed that if this was the wrong place, then He would in His mercy cause someone to give us an invitation sometime to the right place, the church where HE wanted us, because we were too stupid to get it right on our own. That night 4 people invited us to the same church. And that's where we are now. That night was the only night the pastor ever visited that Bible study, too. So, if we had made the choice to follow through on our stupid judmental attitudes, no telling how long our journey to a church would have taken. Patrick, I guess my point of all that was that what you saw in SDAland is NOT what the Lord intended for His church to be. Somewhere out there the Lord has a place where you can safely grow in him. When HE is ready to address the topic of the nicotine HE will let you know. As was said, one way to find out if He is working on that is to give it an honest effort occassionally. Otherwise, to beat yourself up is to do just what satan wants you to do, give up and figure you aren't worth it. So spend your time building relationship with your passionately loving Father for now. 'Cause it surely do sound like that SDA pastor has his mind made up about you already! God doesn't kick us when we are down. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Patirick, I agree with Lydell and Sherry and Susan and Maryann. God has a place already in mind for you where you can worship and be spiritually nurtured. Ask him to show you where he wants you; he will do it, and it will feel like coming home! You need the prayer support and fellowship of other true Christians who love you in the Lord and where you can get support and counsel from a Godly pastor or lay minister. I and I know others on this forum will pray for youóthat you will find a church, that God will direct your marriage, and that God will help you with your smoking. God does not want your concern about your smoking to come between you and him. He will deal with it in your life in his own time. Tell him you feel trapped by it and give it to Him. In His love, Colleen | ||
| Patrick |
Thank you all so much. Your encouragement is a true blessing. I'm thinking though, that I made to much of an issue about the smoking. What really gets next to me is the idea of the SDAs, or anyone else for that matter, telling people that Christ alone is not enough. They foment people by the idea that Christ giving up heaven with the Father, coming to this world, living a perfect life, and being cruelly murdered, is somehow not an acceptable sacrifice. Or maybe more correctly, not sacrifice enough. That's a lie and I no longer wish to live it. Thank you brothers & sisters for your kind words and words of encouragement. They are precious. God Bless. Much love & prayers. Soli Christis | ||
| Lori |
Hi, Patrick, Smoking and Alcohol (of any form) are just two of the taboos that most "christian" organizations shun (actually the SDA hold many more than that as taboos--caffeine, meats, jewelry, are a few examples). But smoking is just a bad habit!! You are addicted to smoking, just like many others are addicted to their job, cokes or coffee (how many cokes or cups of coffee do you have to have in order not to get a headache?), food, shopping, the internet, maybe even visiting this website!!! The point is, that in our humanity, others see the speck in your eye (smoking), while ignoring the log in their own!!! They ignore their slandering of others (something clearly spoken of to be distestable to God)! We all know that smoking is not healthy......but it is not an issue of salvation....you already know that!!!! No where does it say? Thou shalt believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and quit all unhealthy habits and then thou shalt be saved. Someone, like Maryann, that has struggled with the same problem can be helpful to you. But like she said "in God time" he will take you to the point where you will be able to quit. I'm sure in God's eyes your bad habit is not the most important thing for him to change. In our humanity, we think the external things are more important because that is what others see, but God is much more interested in the internal. Focus on continuing to learn more and more Bible doctrines, you will grow in God's grace that way and he will take you where he wants you!! If Christians could only allow each other to grow in grace--and not place our human 'morals' upon everyone as a gauge of Spirituality. Christ placed no judgement, no guilt upon a known harlot, yet Christianity places a blanket of guilt and despair on the shoulder of those who don't meet their expectations. May this thread be a clear message to everyone, to not place ANYONE under "our" moral rules and expectations but instead leave them only in the hands of the Saviour so they can have the "freedom" (spiritual freedom) to grow in the grace that God has so richly provided for them. As his child, God has provided you with absolutely everything that you need to live in his grace and to be a spiritual "winner". Don't let anyone ever make you feel like you are a "loser". Lori | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Lori, As usual, it's such a pleasure to see you show up! :=) There isn't much to be added to your post. It is just wonderful NOT to have to "HAVE TO" be critical of every misplaced hair. Remember, at some point, all it takes is a straw to break a camel's back. For some of us, it was just to much critisism that broke "our" back! Just so someone doesn't say that I just said you can live like the devil, I didn't! There is a vast difference between our every thought and act being controlled by a denomination and the Holy Spitit controlling you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maryann | ||
| Colleentinker |
Well said, Lori and Maryann! God is so good; he never leaves us in our desperation and moral and emotional squalor to figure out our own way out. When He redeems us, he redeems our emotions, our memories, our unhealed phsychological woundsóit all becomes His. And the wonderful thing is that He shows us, one step at a time, what he wants to heal in us next. He doesn't drown us in a flood of new requirements. He gently leads us into wholeness and intimacy with him. We are all growing and changing. I heard a marvelous line from Richard Nies (now deceased), an Adventist clinical psychologist and amateur theologian who had a practice and a very popular SS Class in South. Cal. in the 70's and 80's. This was it: "If your view of God is the same now as it was a year ago, you are worshiping a graven image." Isn't that good? I've come to believe that. Knowing Christ is an alive and changing relationship. We are never the same again! Praising God for growth, Colleen | ||
| George |
Patrick, I have a little different slant on the pastors atitude and for that matter many of the SDAs. Their prophet wrote 88 books by the count I heard in the 60s. Even if he memorized every word of all of them, he would still have only the knowledge and understanding that are contained in the 88 books. If that is all you rely on, it is not vary much when you consider the amount of knowledge that has been recouded since her death. That would leave a person very narrow don't you think. As for the smoking, there are medications that will help you through the worst on the cravings. After the first 3-5 days the actual adiction is over and then it just your mind that tells you you need to smoke. If you say you don't want to take medicne just think of what one of the most deadly poisons is doing to you, medication is the lesser of the two evils. And you only have to take it for a short while. Now, as I understand salvation, smoking wont keep you from it!!!! George PS I quit in '85 the hard way. I don't even want to tell you how many years it took me. I only have a cold every 5-10 years now instead of two or three a year. Good luck! | ||
| Allenette |
Hi PATRICK! If your SDA pastor told you that you MUST STOP SMOKING in order to be an acceptable (cookie-cutter type) SDA, well, he was merely spouting the party-line S.O.P. (Standard Operating Procedure, not Spirit of Prophecy, altho, come to think of it, BOTH would appply here LOLOL) My dear SDA pastor dad, would have done the same thing, sad to say. In one parrish in Massachusetts, in the 70's, we had an elderly patriarch who was hooked on cigars. I can remember my dad going to visit him, with me in tow behind him, and the conversation was standard SDA...."you must quit or leave the church membership"...trouble is, he was the patriarch of the wealthiest family in the church, and they would NOT back my dad's OFFICIAL CHURCH PRONOUNCEMENT. Hmmm.....guess who backed off? (Hint: it wasnt that family) GGG....money talks, S*** walks, as they say ;-) During my rebellious, urge to breathe free "do everything anti-SDA days" I used to smoke VICEROYS!!! But, cheapo that I am, after I got over the idea of thinking that smoking was cool, and that I'd rather have (way back when) $1.75 in my pocket than a pack of cigs, I quit. No problem. Lucky me. My dear hubby has had one heart attack already (at 46) that his doc blamed on cigs since he had no other "probable causes",he also told us that quitting nicotine was harder than heroin! And after watching him transform from Dr. Jekyll into Mr. Hyde during his hospital stay, I have to agree. I have lost count of the "New Years resolution type-times he has said "I'm quitting". I get quite tired of hearing/reading people condemn people for their presumed lack of character etc in this area. WHO KNOWS? I have seen myself, people in oxygen tents, remove them so they could light up. Yeah, it was dead easy for me to put it down. My fave male adult, makes it as hard as he can, to smoke. He wont smoke in the house, he goes outside for a coupla puffs even in the dead of winter, (or the HOT HOT humidity of Tennessee for that matter). I dont know ANYONE who smokes thse days, who doesnt say "I wish I never started". Its a very complicated subject, and has little to do with moral fortitude when you factor in the cigarette industry, now fighting for survival after the court decisions. But I dont feel like taking up a whole lot of bandwidth to suggest a discussion of that. gggg (unless someone wants to....) | ||
| George |
Allenette,Patrick, I was going to bring up the thought that tobaco was as hard or harder to quit than heroin but didn't want to scare anyone off. When I first heard about it I was working beside a jaweler that had spent many years on the street, I knew that he had been a user so I asked him if it was true. He thought for a moment and said, yes. One was about as bad as the other Somehow it came up that he had quit heroin not once but six times and it was wasn't any harder than when he had quit tobaco about a month before. I knew then why I had had such a hard time with it myself. So next time anyone tells you you don't have enough Christ in you to quit, tell them they don't know what they are talking about. George |
