| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis |
As a former Adventist, I wish to applaud the value of a meatless diet. I grew up on a family farm where we produced most of our vegetables, meats, and some grains. I well remember the enormous amount of work that went into preparing chicken and beef(i.e, the butchering process of grinding, thawing, sawing, pounding, decapitating, shooting, stabbing, dressing, stuffing, cleaning, sorting, draining, and precise cooking-temperature requirements, etc.). In the days before refrigerators and freezers(yes, I am over 50--smile) canning all those meats was most burdensome and time-consuming. Today's meatless menus are so quick and easy to prepare. I am surprised that anyone would want to return to all that extra work just because we longer have restrictions in our food choices. Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. May we retain and utilize that part of our religious heritage that makes life easier and more healthful. It is indeed hard to be a Christian with a sour stomach! | ||
| Breezy |
Dennis, Hi there! I have to agree with you one hundred percent. I can't say that I've had your butchering experience(I've often wondered about it though)but I can say that when I am meat-free I feel alot healthier. Meat just seems to bog me down and make me feel unwell. And on meat and dairy I gain alot of weight. Now I wouldn't turn it down if that was all I had a choice of eating.(Not that I couldn't go a few days on my own resources). In this case though, I feel less is better. God Bless you, Wendy | ||
| Breezy |
Breezy, This is in response to the older posts above. Take a sliver of pork and place it under high magnification on a microscope. Now, what do you see? Lots of little tiny worms!!! Okay, now,how do you get rid of the little tiny worms? Well, you probably don't because like most people you never heat your pork to a high enough temperature that the little guys pass over. Even if by some chance you do heat it enough, they may be dead, but they are still there. People who grow up eating pork do not "usually" experience problems,although there are case of people dying from it, but people who are not used to these little worms get very ill and usually have raging diarrhea. I've had it happen myself because I developed a fondness for the aroma of bacon and also pepperoni. So of course I had to try it. (Rebellious as I was). Well I was ill for two days. Now I just abstain because the thought of all those little wormies grosses me out beyond belief. Just trying to help! Wendy | ||
| Loneviking |
Now come on, Wendy. What you are describing is 'Trichinosis' and most pork dosen't have this. I wish I could remember the publication, but supposedly there hasn't been a case of human trichinosis poisoning since the 1940's. Further, quite a few of the folk I know boil pork for about a half hour before preparing and cooking it which should take care of anything in there. What is more likely to hurt you is all of the antibiotics and growth hormones in it. That's why I try to pick carefully where my meat has come from. I make friends with folks that have pastures to raise my moo and oink on. Nothing wrong with vegetarianism, but my stomach just can't take soybeans. :( I do get a kick out of carnivores that get sick at the thought of the butchering process. Americans didn't used to eat so much meat because they had to do their own butchering which is hard work. I know, I've done it myself and it takes about a half hour just to take a chicken running loose and turn it into 'ready to go in the oven'----and much longer for beef and pork. Man, all this talk is making me hungry for breakfast and since I run very low cholesterol guess what I'm having? :) | ||
| Breezy |
Hi Bill, I'll get you the figures, but Trichonosis is more common than you think. It was well documented in my nursing classes, most especially my Microbiology and Human diseases classes. Get your pork and a microscope and you will see that the worms are there and always will be. They are indigenous to pigs. Period. If you can get them to stop wiggling it might help though. Happy eating! Wendy :) | ||
| Breezy |
Sorry Bill there I go again addressing to the wrong person! Should be Lone Viking. Sorry guys. | ||
| Loneviking |
No Breezy---you got the actual name right, but see what I mean about the name 'Bill'? There are how many of us on this forum? Just use 'LV' so you don't wear out your hands. Wormy huh? Well, I'm doing fine so far so I guess I got them to quit wriggling! :) So, you are a nurse? I'm a Resp. Therapist........ | ||
| Breezy |
Hi LV, I took a resp ther. class in college trying to decide future career. It was very interesting and quite involved. I just decided I had wanted to be a nurse forever so... Well as long as you have those wormies wrangled I won't worry about you. I never worry about what other people eat anyway. Just that people above wondered what had made pork an unclean meat, so I thought I would try to help. :) P.S. My tummy still growls at the smell of real bacon. :) Have a happy day! Wendy | ||
| Debbie |
Hello Everyone! Something occurred to me last week while I was driving through Loma Linda: One BIG reason why Adventists are so <obsessively> interested in being more healthy is so that they can <hopefully> live longer. The reason they try so hard to live longer is because they are afraid to die. The reason why they are afraid to die is because they have been taught that they can never know for sure that they are saved. But the bible says we CAN know we are saved. John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His One and Only Son that WHOEVER believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life." Romans 10:9-11 says that, "if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, 'ANYONE who trusts in Him will NEVER be put to shame.' For there is NO difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of ALL and richly blesses ALL who call on Him, for, 'EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'" I John 5: 13 says, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life." I praise God that I can rest in Christ's FINISHED work on the cross, and that through my belief in Him I can count on spending eternity with Him, just as He has promised. I praise God that I do not have to worry about where I will go when I die, and that I do not have to worry about losing my salvation because of what I have done or neglected to do. I praise God that "food DOES NOT bring me closer to Him, and that I am no worse if I do not eat, and no better if I do." (1 Corinthians 8:8) I praise God that He is faithful even when I am not, and that "He will NEVER leave me or forsake me." (Hebrews 13:5b) Living in Grace, Debbie | ||
| Patti |
Debbie wrote: One BIG reason why Adventists are so <obsessively> interested in being more healthy is so that they can <hopefully> live longer. The reason they try so hard to live longer is because they are afraid to die. The reason why they are afraid to die is because they have been taught that they can never know for sure that they are saved. Patti: Very good, Debbie! Very good indeed! Have you also wondered about the SDA obsession with health in the light of the words of Jesus: "He that saves his life shall lose it; he that loses his life for my sake, shall find it"? | ||
| Debbie |
Hi Patti: You wrote: "Have you also wondered about the SDA obsession with health in the light of the words of Jesus: 'He that saves his life shall lose it; he that loses his life for my sake, shall find it'?" No, I hadn't thought of that before. But it has occurred to me that when it comes right down to it, there is nothing we can do to prolong our days, because in the end God is ultimately responsible for deciding when <or if> we will die. That is, when it comes right down to it, we really have no control whatsoever over when we will die, or how long we will live. Trusting that His wisdom is greater than mine! Debbie | ||
| Breezy |
That is just silly guys! We have no power to prolong our lives, therefore, we can live as we choose without regard to how we treat our bodies? Along with all those texts you guys quoted did you perhaps forget the ones where our bodies are proclaimed to be the temple of God? How should we take care of our bodies then? The best we know how according to medical science. If you read much you couldn't help but see that everything that Ellen White spoke about in regards to health is being proven by science today. Go ahead and give a few of your doubts and I would be happy to research them out and give you where I found the answers. I'm sorry if I sound harsh,but this was a bit too much even for me. Debbie's presumption didn't have a bit of logic or proof to back it up, but, because it bashed Ellen and SDA's Patti jumped on the band wagon with "great job!". That's abit absurd. Wendy | ||
| Loneviking |
Well, if Debbies' message was not 'tongue in cheek' then I'd have to agree with Wendy! I lived in the LL area for about fifteen years and several of my wifes' relatives are in that area. The reason for the health food and the market and all is truly health. No, the Bible does NOT require this, but on the other hand health can be a good witness. I've had elders in other non-SDA churches comment on the poor state of health of many of their members with cancers/diabetes/strokes and heart disease. Many of these folks wish they knew a better way of eating. You don't find so much of these crippling diseases in the SDA church, Debbie. As far as how does it continue, well my wife is a good example. She was raised a vegetarian and she still can't bring herself to fix meat for me as she really can't stand the smell. (So, when wifey is around I'm mostly vegetarian). And, usually these vegetarians marry other vegetarians and raise kids as vegetarians and it just goes on and on. Besides, there's a lot of great tasting vegetarian dishes---like cottage cheese loaf! (If you're an unrepentant carnivore try this loaf--you will like it!). | ||
| Breezy |
Lone Viking, I loooovvveee cottage cheese loaf! And if you use non fat or even non dairy products it really gets healthy. UUmmmm! I would rather have that than what I'm having right now. Seven layer taco dip and Scoops. Probably more healthy too! :) When Jesus said that he who loses his life shall save it, He didn't mean that we could go out and commit suicide and still be saved. Well, most peoples diets nowadays with all the fast food IS suicide. I KNOW that is not what Jesus meant. Wendy | ||
| Patti |
Health reform is not a salvific issue. Period. The Gospel that we are to carry to the world is not about eating and drinking, as Paul indicates in Romans 14, but of "peace and righteousness in the Holy Spirit." Peace with God because our sins are forgiven in Jesus Christ, and the righteousness of Jesus Christ which is credited to our account when we believe in Him. Even if SDAs lived longer than average (and the evidence does not support this; actually, the lifespan of Mormons is longer than any specific religious group), this is not the Gospel. Our focus should be on preaching grace to an unbelieving world; not on selfishly trying to extend our own lives. Although it is not wrong to do so, it does not have a place in the Gospel the we are to proclaim to a lost world. | ||
| Breezy |
Patti, I am sorry but I think you are dead wrong. We are to preach the gospel to a dying world, but once people are saved it does not end there. I do not go out preaching health reform as salvation. But it is a very good tool to reach people who might not otherwise be interested in God OR the gospel. It is a lead in, not a method of salvation. This is absurd that you cannot just admit that something about Adventism helps people. Would it really hurt you to admit that Adventists have a ministry that is helpful and perhaps saves lives. Look at the Loma Linda work. It is literally one of the leading medical facilities in the world. Much of the cutting edge research in medical science comes out of this Adventist ministry. The focus of this forum is not to bash adventism but rather to lead adventist to the gospel truth. That does not mean when they learn the gospel they must drop all good aspects as well. It's like people feeling they must drop the sabbath just because they learned salvation by grace. It is infinitely possible to enjoy the sabbath in a non-legalistic manner and still revel in grace. Wendy | ||
| Ray |
Want to see the Adventist Health message in action. Rent the movie "The Road to Wellville", just don't let your children watch it. | ||
| Joni |
Wendy, The quote in 1 Cor.6:19 "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God and that you are not your own?" Has nothing to do with eating veg. or health issues. It has to do with sexual immorality. Sexual Immorality will do far more damage to your entire being, physically, emotional and spiritual that what you eat or drink. I used to quote this text to show that we should eat good and take care of our bodies. This is how I learned it in Adventism. After inductive study I realized that it is not talking about what you eat. Being veg. or not. Read the whole chapter and the the ones preceeding it. It is a misuse of Scripture to use this verse as a health issue. The others in 1 Cor. 3:16. "Do you not know that your are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are." Again this is not talking about health issues. "Context is King." You can pull verses out of context and use them any way you want. But the true meaning of the text has to do with building upon the foundation of Jesus etc, not health issues. The true meaning of any text needs to be used in context with the chapter and previous chatpters and the book as a whole. The same thing is done to 1 Cor. 10:31 "Whether then you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all the the glory of God." This is not talking about health issues either, it is talking about giving no offense to Jews or Greeks or to the church of God, and not putting stumbling blocks to others. Pray about each situation and do what you must to the Glory of God. I have no problem with eating healthy. But I don't think we should be quoting scripture out of context. I don't think we should be making a religion out of what we eat. Heb. 13:9 "Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, through which those who were thus occupied were not benefited." Grace will do much more that any diet will do. If you have faith in Jesus and have learned about the Grace of God your body becomes whole no matter what you eat, even if you die. Please don't take me wrong. I still try to eat good, but it is not a religion to me. (all the above texts have more meaning that what I said. I just gave a cursory view.) Joni | ||
| Breezy |
Joni, You are right, all those texts do have more meaning than what you listed. I am never so naive as to believe that the Bible says something and means only one thing. The Bible has many levels of understanding within it. That is what Paul,I believe, meant by milk and meat. When one is in the beginnings of their walk with God and can only handle milk,the light meanings of the Bible are all they can handle. But as someone grows, they are ready for the deeper meanings and levels of understanding,the meat. I am sure you are right and the texts are referring to that. But we are never to stop just with the obvious. We are to continually dig deep for the more complex issues being discussed. If the surface meaning was all there was, why would we be urged to STUDY continuously. I believe very much that it is too easy to just accept the easy answer for questions and assume you are finished. There is much more hidden treasure in the Bible than that for the student who with the Holy Spirit digs deep. Find the deeper meaning. ( My college professors favorite saying.) God Bless you, Wendy | ||
| Breezy |
One more thing. Can you honestly say that if we are to not commit sexual immorality, it isn't just plain common sense to not put alcohol, tobacco, high fat foods, and diseased meat products into your body to keep it Holy also. Should we desecrate anything that God has entrusted us with, or should we hold it in the highest esteem? How do you treat the children God has entrusted you with? Well, your body is no different. If you value yourself as much as your children, then you will treat yourself as Christ would treat you. |
