| Author | Message | ||
| Patti |
Romans 14: 1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 ONE MAN HAS FAITH THAT HE MAY EAT ALL THINGS, BUT HE WHO IS WEAK EATS VEGETABLES ONLY. 3 LET NOT HIM WHO EATS REGARD WITH CONTEMPT HIM WHO DOES NOT EAT, AND LET NOT HIM WHO DOES NOT EAT JUDGE HIM WHO EATS, FOR GOD HAS ACCEPTED HIM. 4 WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE THE SERVANT OF ANOTHER? TO HIS OWN MASTER HE STANDS OR FALLS; AND STAND HE WILL, FOR THE LORD IS ABLE TO MAKE HIM STAND. 5 One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7 FOR NOT ONE OF USE LIVES FOR HIMSELF, AND NOT ONE DIES FOR HIMSELF; 8 FOR IF WE LIVE, WE LIVE FOR THE LORD, OR IF WE DIE WE DIE FOR THE LORD; THEREFORE WHETHER WE LIVE OR DIE, WE ARE THE LORD'S. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. 10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall GIVE PRAISE TO God." 12 So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore LET US NOT JUDGE ONE ANOTHER ANYMORE--NOT TO PUT AN OBSTACLE OR A STUMBLING BLOCK IN A BROTHER'S WAY. ***14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. **** 15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. DO NOT DESTROY WITH YOUR FOOD HIM FOR WHOM CHRIST DIED. 16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; 17 FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS NOT EATING AND DRINKING, BUT RIGHTEOUSNESS AND PEACE AND JOY IN THE HOLY SPIRIT. 18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. 20 DO NOT TEAR DOWN THE WORK OF GOD FOR THE SAKE OF FOOD. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. 21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. 22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; AND WHATEVER IS NOT OF FAITH IS SIN. | ||
| Breezy |
You know what? Same old arguements, same old answers, same old dodging. I am sorry, but I am not judging people for what they eat. Those references were regarding food offered to idols. The health issues back in Paul's day were minor compared to what we have today. We are far more educated than they were and as such we need to live our lives accordingly. Back in Paul's day I do not believe he would have been ignorant enough to say go ahead and eat all those diseased, cancerous, ulcerous meats. Don't worry about the pesticides and hormones that are causing 3 year old girls to develop breasts and 7 year old boys to develop secondary sexual characteristics. No. Paul was very intelligent and if he lived today and knew about the abhorrent things that go into our food, he would advocate abstinence. Just would not base his religion on them. Gee Patti, it must have taken along time to type all those texts. I sure hope your friend isn't upset at you using all that access time. | ||
| Ken |
Hi All: If health and diet were not an issue then why was Daniel's diet even mentioned in the book of Daniel? I totally agree with wendy, if Patti was out killing her own food and eating it fresh it would probably be less of an issue. The method used to raise and harvest meat leaves much to be desired. Patti do you know anybody who is a butcher? A great friend of mine quit eating meat while he was a butcher, he said they cut out many tumors & worms for meat that went to market for you to eat. Go to Dr. C. everett Coops health site, where you will find they have direct links to cancer from hot dogs. Why do you think they keep re-arranging the food pyramid? Meat is not necassary, indeed it is a health hazzard! Ken Clark | ||
| Breezy |
Ken, Big Amen! Wendy | ||
| Debbie |
Matthew 15:10: "Jesus called the crowd to him and said, 'Listen and understand. WHAT GOES INTO A MAN'S MOUTH DOES NOT MAKE HIM "UNCLEAN," BUT WHAT COMES OUT OF HIS MOUTH, THAT IS WHAT MAKES HIM 'UNCLEAN.'" 1 Corinthians 8:8: "BUT FOOD DOES NOT BRING US NEAR TO GOD; WE ARE NO WORSE IF WE DO NOT EAT, AND NO BETTER IF WE DO." Colossians 2:16-17: "Therefore, DO NOT LET ANYONE JUDGE YOU BY WHAT YOU EAT OR DRINK, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration, or a Sabbath day. THESE ARE A SHADOW OF THE THINGS TO COME; THE REALITY, HOWEVER, IS FOUND IN CHRIST." Living in Grace and Freedom, and in FULL assurance of my salvation! With Love, Debbie | ||
| Doug |
What can separate us from the love of God? Neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come...nor Oscar Mayer, nor BBQ ribs. Yes, certain things may not be the most singularly healthy, but then I imagine the smog from living in the LA Basin and the radiation from cell phones are suspect as well. We have so much to be thankful for as a nation and people. In so many other parts of the world there are families that will go hungry tonight and tomorrow as well. God be praised that we have so much that we can actually have a discussion about what kind of food we stuff ourselves with. If I could only get out of my comfortable, over-loaded, Internet satisfied, entertainment- inundated totally pampered existence, I might have a real hunger to share the Grace of God-- Looking forward to some mean BBQ at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb-- | ||
| Breezy |
No more death or dying or BBQ. Sorry, but I'll find you a mean vegeburger. :) Wendy | ||
| Patti |
Wendy, I cut and paste the texts from this website: www.crossroads.com. You may find it a useful resource also, as it has a concordance with 7 or 8 different translations and study helps. The Lord bless you and keep you, Wendy, The Lord lift His countenance upon you, and give you peace, The Lord make His face to shine upon you, and be gracious unto you. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Breezy |
Patti, I will say it again. I am not angry at you or anyone else. I just feel that this forum is great for support as you said, but is not for debate. Because, everyone here has there own opinion about what things mean and there is no point in trying to change anyones mind. I have received a spiritual blessing here. I did not mean to make you feel attacked. Simply that there was an inequality in your posts. I'm sorry, but that is how I saw it. I am not leaving because I am angry. I just do not have a place here because I am not convinced in my own mind about the invalidity of EGWhite and Adventism and I have no desire to leave the church. I explored the issue. You all have failed to convince me of your position, and even though I have enjoyed the company here, I don't have anything to add to this forum except a little jocularity occasionally. I just simply intend to stay out of theological discussions because my point of view is never going to get a fair shake. Thank you for the prayer. I hope this clarifies things a little. God Bless, Wendy | ||
| Patti |
Wendy, It was never my intention or (I believe) anyone else's here to try to convince you to leave the church. My presence here has a threefold purpose for me: 1. To share common experience with other formers.. 2. To share the Gospel of salvation by grace alone 3. To be renewed and refreshed by hearing the Gospel from others. My mission is not now, nor ever has been, to try to convince someone to leave the SDA church. In fact, I believe it was I who told someone--I think it was Sherry--that the only justifiable reason to leave the SDA church was NOT in reaction to the errors of Ellen, but only for the sake of the purity of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. I tried to make you understand above: church membership means nothing to our salvation. The only thing that matters is faith in the doing and dying of our Lord Jesus Christ. As to shere the Holy Spirit may lead after He reveals the perfection of our salvation in Jesus Christ, I would not being to speculate. Our task is not to do the work of the Holy Spirit; our task is to tell others about Jesus Christ and Him crucified. There is no greater work we can do on this earth than to tell others of the worthiness of the Lamb of God. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Doug |
Wendy, I don't think anyone here is trying to "convince" you to change your viewpoint. I do believe that this forum is does provide a community for those who have struggled with Adventism. Engaging in a spirited discussion with regard to non-essential issues like food should never become so rancorous that we take our eyes of the real prize--Grace. All the wisdom in the world is nothing if not grounded in love. I would hope that you will continue to add to our discussions. You bring many valid points to bear including issues with regard to food, health, pesticides and hormones that should be discussed. But let's discuss these issues one at a time, not create blanket statments that create an air of defensiveness. The Grace of God is so overwhelming that I would gladly give up eating meat if it made you uncomfortable and impeeded our abiltiy to share a good meal together where we could talk about the glory of Christ. May you truly find what you're looking for-- | ||
| Breezy |
I really feel like I have been completely misunderstood here. 1)My comments were never intended as an attack. Rather when Patti felt attacked by them that made me feel the need to be on the defensive. 2)I do not feel pushed out of here. I simply do not feel that I have anything to add doctrinal issues because you all know the arguments already and have rebutted them already. 3)Doug, I have no desire to see you give up meat. I am still struggling with that as an issue myself, I am just realistic about the truth of the matter which is-meat is contaminated. I am sorry if I gave you the impression I thought everyone should be vege's. I said above that I do not judge others eating habits. a)Pork has worms. That's all I wanted to say. And even that was light-hearted. b)there will be no killing of animals in heaven so I was just humorously responding to your "great BBQ in the sky" anecdote. If anything I would only out of concern for your health ,and mine for that matter, even think to discuss health issues. 4)Debbie's presumption above that the reason SDA's are obsessed with health is cause they are afraid to die,and they are afraid to die because they do not have the grace message, was gross generalization and faulty logic to the extreme. When Patti jumped on board with "great thinking Debbie" it just was too absurd for words. It was not great thinking, it was daydreaming put forth as truth and I will not sit here and let someone propigate those falsehoods unchallenged for anyone to read. There are impressionable people out there who don't need to hear faulty reasoning like that when they are very vulnerable. We should give more care to our theories than that and be more responsible. 5) When I have put forth my ideas it has not been unusual for me to get a response from certain nameless people such as " oh come on Wendy, you know better than that". But of course if I play along, everyon gives me the nice pat on the back and thanks for your great input. That just doesn't sit well. That all being said, I am still not angry, resentful, hurt, or anything else. I am not saying I won't interject here and there. Just in safe territory. I appreciate the fellowship here and will continue to do so. God bless you, Wendy | ||
| Patti |
Wendy: Debbie's presumption above that the reason SDA's are obsessed with health is cause they are afraid to die,and they are afraid to die because they do not have the grace message, was gross generalization and faulty logic to the extreme. Patti: I think it is unfair to speak of her ideas in those terms. I truly wish you could find a less personal way in which to express your disagreement with our thoughts. I found that Debbie was merely echoing what was my own experience in the SDA church, and what I have heard from many formers--the constant fear of death and the NSL because, deep within our hearts, we knew we were "not ready." When all along, Jesus' doing and dying was was full satisfaction for our sin and our perfect standing before God. But, unfortunately (or fortunately, depending upon which way one looks at it), we had to find that out outside of the walls of Adventism. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Breezy |
Patti, This has nothing to do with your experience or hers. I come from a very scientific background and have learned how to research and forms hypotheses and theories, etc.She nor you are following scientific theory, therefore there is no logic involved in your arguments. This again you are presuming is an attack. No matter what I say you feel like someone is being attacked. I try to smooth it over and you say I am attacking. I give up. Debbie was not making a statement of her experience, she was making general statement and I might add, a judgement of other people's personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I am sorry but that is heinous. After all the stories on this forum about how people here hated to be branded as heretics and judged for their beliefs, she just did the same thing. And it was wrong. Period. I don't see you callin HER on that. Just falsely accusing me of attacking her, you, and anyone else I happen to comment on. I will restrict my comments from now on to people like questioner, grace ambassador, and bill twisse, who seem to have a better grasp on my motivation. I step out of this conversation with you now and please do not attempt to drag me back into it. I am exausted and fighting a migraine because of it. Wendy | ||
| Colleentinker |
FYI, I know Debbie. I think she wouldn't mind my telling you that she is not and has never been an Adventist. She has earned a graduate degree in nutrition from Loma Linda University. Her perceptions of Adventist thinking are actually different from many of ours because she sees it as one who found herself immersed in it with no background in the church. The main thing that strikes me about Adventist's preoccupation with diet is not that it's wrong but that it's carnal. Diet is not the gospel. Jesus is. When I discovered the gospel I did not race for the butcher counter. In fact, although I do eat meat sometimes, there are many kinds of meat I have a hard time imagining myself ingesting. A focus on diet that consumes much of one's attention replaces, in many ways, spiritual awareness. Jesus said it's what comes OUT of a man's mouth that makes him unclean, not what goes into it. Jesus did not say to go into all nations and teach them the health message. He said to go into the world and preach the gospel. The idea of the health message being the "entering wedge" is not biblical. The health message is good information. But the health message does not draw people to Christ or save them. It really is a non-issue spiritually. The Holy Spirit is sufficient to convict us how we each need to clean up our lifestyles. We can trust him to do that! Colleen | ||
| Breezy |
Colleen, It is hardly a non-issue spiritually. If our bodies are healthy and our minds are healthy, we are more able to think clearly and discern spiritual matters. Just because someone has a degree does not mean they have perfect logical thought. I don't always either. And I have been corrected on this very forum for faulty logic. I accepted it gracefully, not accusing anyone of attacking me, etc. Wendy | ||
| Sherry2 |
I go from different thread to different thread, and there are claims no anger, no malice, not attacking, and yet I read just ugly stuff to make points. I'm just sickened, and can't believe the nastiness I've read over the last few days. I'm not trying to pick out anyone to say this. I haven't been on this forum save once last week, because I've been at Family Camp. I stopped to a library and got on line, where I was able to post once last week. I got home last night, and last night and this morning I've spent reading many posts I have missed. And maybe I am wrong but there is a spirit that is not of Christ here at all lately and that's sad. "And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell.....But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so." James 3:6,8,9 I do not claim to be above all that, let me just make that clear. It's a painful reminder of my own needing to humble myself before God and pray that He cleanses my own tongue and thoughts from such bitter evilness, and to be honest with myself and how I treat others. I have been quite angry and upset with my hubby as of late, and though there are some things that need to be said and worked through, I have sinned by being disrespectful to him for how I felt he was treating me. James starts this chapter on the tongue with talking of teachers, and having a stricter judgment as one, and also says , "For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is perfect man, able to bridle the whole body." And indeed we all do stumble in many things. ....later verse 17 "But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy." That is fruit I do want. Please Lord Jesus, make it so in my life. And Father, You know that I have not been the graceful wife, and forgiving wife that You have called me to be. I was angry but did not voice things as would be pleasing to You. I thought bitter thoughts that were wrong. Lord, please forgive me for sinning against You, and please help me to make restitution to my hubby when he comes home at lunchtime and to set aside some time to sit down and talk with him. Please help our time conversating together be productive and uplifting to our marriage. And God, I just pray for this forum, and that You would forgive us all for any evil speaking, or close-mindedness or bitterness, which we all suffer from, from time to time, and Lord help us be one as You are One. Help us to Lift Your Name On High, and to rightly divide the Word of God, strip us of our arrogance and pride, and help us to be honest with ourselves, knowing we can full well, because we are indeed secure in Your love. Help my words to be taken rightly, and that this prayer will not be seen as pointing fingers at anyone, for we all want to serve You and I believe we all would agree we have failed at times to act as Jesus would and to follow the leading of Your Holy Spirit. Lord, come into my heart today, and go into every and any room of Your chosing. Help me to clean out my own closets by Your grace. Thank you so much Jesus, for loving me and all those around me and making atonement for all our sins. To You Alone be Honor and Glory Forever Amen. I will not be posting again until Thursday. I invite any who would like to join me on a fast of your own chosing between you and God, and prayer to lift this group before God in prayer. This is why I will not be posting. First prayer, then posting. If you would like to join me, let me know. I hope this is ok, Colleen and Richard. I just am impressed that intercession is needed right now. If anyone wants to join in a group prayer via e-mail, you can e-mail me privately at SherryL233@aol.com. God bless all! | ||
| Larimobley |
Dear Wendy, You wrote: "Colleen, It is hardly a non-issue spiritually. If our bodies are healthy and our minds are healthy, we are more able to think clearly and discern spiritual matters." Okay, I agree with you, but I'm not sure I like where this line of thought will take us. Yes, if I eat a healthy diet (let's assume vegetarian is healthy for the sake of argument), then I'm more likely to be healthy and discern spiritual matters. But does this mean that a person's IQ is now a spiritual issue? Wouldn't someone with a higher IQ be more likely to "think clearly"? How about someone without a chronic condition like migraine headaches, or diabetes--and let's assume these people are aleady vegetarian :). Are these people less able to discern spiritual matters? I have a fondness for sugar, particularly donuts. They're vegetarian, but really bad for me and I get problems with my blood sugar when I eat too many and get headaches. Does this become a spiritual matter as well? Yes, on the overall point I think you're absolutely correct. It is our responsibility to take care of our bodies as best we can. But I agree with Colleen that the Holy Spirit is sufficient to convict my fellow Christians in these matters. I don't mind a debate about the merits of a particular diet (i.e. meat vs. vegetarian), but I get concerned when we tie it in with our fellow Christian's spiritual lives. I think it's okay to make a personal statement, like, "I find myself thinking more clearly when I stay away from sugar, and this has helped me have more energy to study the Bible in the mornings." But I won't suggest that you, too, give up sugar, or meat, etc. Hope this makes sense. I enjoy your posts--particularly your disdain for those worms--and appreciate your insights. In His grace, Lari | ||
| Breezy |
I went back to the beginning of this discussion and what I noticed was that it was very light hearted and relaxed until Patti came in defending Debbie from some supposed wrong. Debbie didn't even come on here herself and claim injury. This all started with false accusations against me that still have not been proven out. I would think that I have to be able to speak out freely against false charges or else I would have to feel like I am in a police state. Which, by the way, is closer than you think. Lari, I did not imply in a judgemental way that if you are not vege you could not possibly discern spiritual matters. All I meant was that a healthy mind(not a particular healthy mind) creates a better environment and is conducive to the work of the Holy Spirit. I personally get a little tired of the "political correctness" kick that has been going on for a few years now. If we must walk on eggshells everytime we speak, write, post or whatever, the rights of the individual are certainly being superceded by the rights of the masses. This bothers me to an extreme. But, I don't worry about it too much because these things to must come to pass. I really appreciate your positive comments. I enjoy humor and worm humor just really gave me a kick that night. I do not agree that Ellen was a false prophet. I believe that she had a prophetic gift and possibly she abused that gift occasionally. If you look at happenings around the world today with ecumenism and Papal authority and Sunday laws abounding, you would be hard put to say that all of her prophecies failed. I think this is a delusion of Satan to distract the faithful of God from the truth of what is occuring in the world today. The one world government is just around the corner and proof for that abounds. The buying and selling issues controls by technology are in place as we speak, and leaders are ready to put them into effect in 2001. So, there is enough proof that she had correct prophecies that I could hardly in good conscience just toss her aside. I am glad to find a friendly voice here. I look forward to hearing from you. Wendy | ||
| Chyna |
dear friends, i have to say that to an outsider (nonadventist like me) that the "health msg" can drive people away from the church. my adventist friend is so vehement about the doctrine of hell is eternal that drives people away from the gospel, but quite honestly, the adventist health message can drive people away too. when i went to eat with my boyfriend's SDA family, every single one of them ordered vegetarian. i ordered meat. you can imagine how that must feel, with nine other people eating their veggies and me eating my pieces of chicken. i have many many vegetarian and vegan friends. i have lived in a vegetarian co-op. there are many many good reasons not to eat meat including health and environmental concerns. however, like giving to God, it should be part of a personal choice, not a church preached message. something about not letting your left hand know what your right hand is doing when you are giving to the offering. it does endanger the "becoming more holy" by deeds. just like the pharisees. and jesus told us they were like white washed tombs. we should not try to let our external practices to make us appear holy in front of men. Jesus Christ's life is our righteousness, it is what God sees, we cannot add or detract from His purity. some of my friends observe Lent. this was a foreign concept to me, but they explained it was giving up something you really like for God. it was to show God that you valued Him more than that thing. so they gave up things like chocolate and other things they enjoyed (going out for dinner). they wore ash on their foreheads. i still don't know how i feel about that. because on one hand it is a reminder to them each time they look in the mirror, but then at the same time it's for outsiders to see and for God it is the inside that really matters, not the ritual. i feel like Christianity should be like a sweet perfume that brings people to God. we should rely on God's love to bring people to the church, and that alone. sometimes veggie, sometimes not, Chyna |
