| Author | Message | ||
| Breezy |
Questioner, Big Amen Again!!! I'm glad someone has the courage (besides me) to stand up to stuff like this. I don't feel so alone now. God bless you, Wendy | ||
| Colleentinker |
My experience leads me to conclude that when we (including me) become defensinve and argumentative, we usually feel significantly threatened about something. I've begun to realize that whenever I feel very emotional about defending something, I'm afraid of learning the real truth. Truth sets us free; error holds us in bondage. There's no reason to flame, attack, or try to win an argument by sheer force of rhetoric. The feelings that lie behind such arguments are not objective; they betray that we are probably holding onto a belief of desire or dream that may not actually be be true. Loveóthat is, God's loveóis the most powerful force in the universe. Hate, force, anger, defensivnessóthese never win arguments or wars. Only love changes hearts. Just a word of caution from my husband the webmaster: posting statements calling other's posts "unwarranted and false garbage" will not be tolerated. As we say to our boys; whatever you call your brother, that you are also. I continue to pray for us all. I pray that the presence of the Holy Spirit will be in this website and that He will minister to all who post and lurk here. Even those who are the most angry need the love of the Lord. And, I believe, while they come to this site hopingóoftenóto stimulate debate and heated arguments, they cannot destroy what God ordains. God is sovereign; if he wishes to minister to people seeking freedom in his love and forgiveness in cyberspace, he will minister to them in spite of people's efforts to short-circuit Him. We cannot short-circuit God! Praise His powerful name! Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
One thing that I can say with, my cats head on the chopping block, is that George is about the most color blind person I've ever met. Bmorgan has demonstrated the same in the time I have know her too. Shaking my head......Maryann | ||
| Breezy |
Colleen, I am sorry to hear that you are assuming that because people accuse me of being angry and defensive, that makes it so. No one can see into my heart and Jesus knows that those emotions have never been present in this conversation. I am also sorry to hear that you believe that just because someone stands up for what they believe to be true, that means that they are fighting the real truth which is of course your truth and others on this forum. It seems to be biased. If that was a veiled threat that Richard will remove us for standing up for ourselves, then so be it. It doesn't bother me one way or the other. I am just disappointed that you believe others assumptions about me ,and questioner for that matter, instead listening to what we say. Disappointed, depressed, and headachey, Wendy | ||
| Questioner |
I agree with Patti that we should be able to discuss almost anything with an open mind and not take exception to it. However, I think that what I take exception to is the fact that many didn't disagree nicely. It is one thing to say that, for instance, I have heard it said that Ellen White was a racist. That isn't a harsh thing and makes no accusation. That leaves it open to discussion. But if a person says that someone told someone else who told yet another person some supposed quotation that Ellen White said, "God never made the DARKEY". Not only wouldn't a sane person believe hearsay like that, but it was meant to be inflammatory because the objectionable word was all caps. Further, it wasn't written as anything other than fact. Unfortunately, it just isn't. Here's Patti's quote: "The "no-perfect-church" defense is hardly a justification for the heresies of the SDA church. " No "I believe", or "some have said", or anything nice at all. Surely that isn't the kind of rhetoric that Christians should write. Another type of objectionable comment is the accusation that assumes a certain explanation. Those who do that are not open to discussion. One could easily have taken the quotations about amalgamation another way, but no one bothered to consider that. Heres' a good one: "More and more, as I look at EGW's record and becoming more aware of her manipulative tactics, I am suspicious about her vision from God to build Oakwood College for the "coloured" people. Was this an attempt to keep blacks in their place? The path of least resistance. The appearance of good, but not a heart of love for God's creation. " Come on, people. How about fair play? | ||
| Questioner |
Colleentinker: Whose posts were called unwarranted and false garbage? You weren't trying to threaten or intimidate me, were you? | ||
| Questioner |
To everyone who has suffered some real or even perceived injury by any religious organization: Since this question has come up, and although not on topic, please forgive me while I respond. The answer is to run to Jesus. Your happiness and mine does not depend upon anyone else. If you have not found peace, spend more time on your knees. While our salvation is not dependent upon our feelings, still the Spirit will never, ever leave you wanting for peace. I know because I've been there, and He has never failed me. He has made everything alright for me, and He won't fail you either. Remember the great reformers and patriarchs of the Bible. They often spent time in prayer. And remember Jesus, who often spent the whole night in prayer. There is a reason for that. Sometimes people feel the need to talk it all out, and that can be fine at times. But it is not okay to dwell on the past, or to continually find fault with those who hurt you. If you use this forum to complain and point fingers, you will not be helped and neither will anyone else. Besides, you may be wrong. Use this forum instead to promote an open-minded and frank discussion of the beliefs of ex-SDAs and why those beliefs can help people to find Jesus. The rest is only between you and Him. Jesus never fails. | ||
| Breezy |
YEP. | ||
| Loneviking |
Questioner--- I'm just curious about what you define as racism. Generally, I've known racism to be either: 1. An acknowledgement that there are differences culturally and physically between the races. OR 2. One race is superior to the other. Or do you have a third definition? I'm just curious because the reason, as I see it, for the black churches and conferences in SDA'ism is cultural. Many black churches are almost Pentecostal in the way they do their church services. I've known several black preachers that don the vestments before preaching--which would just about cause multiple heart attacks in a white congregation. Anyway, I'm just curious.... | ||
| George |
Questioner, I like the way you stand on your "rights" to say and question what you want. We all have the same rights, it is guaranteed by the constitution. The only reason "race" can make a difference in a conversation is if in some way one of the people wants to make use on that difference. I just don't see the need to take note or use those differences in any way. They just have no value to me. In the past I have roomed with Blacks, I have gotten drinks of water at Colored only drinking fountains, so now I guess you will want to know if I am Black too. Well you will never know as it just does not matter. As I said "race" does not matter unless one wants to make use of the differences in some way. And the process of disagreeing and the end result there of it should always be uplifting, not downgrading. Think about it. I just had another thought. If a person insists on standing on their rights, they must understand that the piece of paper that guarantees those rights only covers a few square inches. To me life covers those square inches and SO MUCH MORE. George | ||
| Questioner |
Loneviking: Good question! Number two is definitely odious to me and is one of the big ones. I think that there may be a third; simple hate or animosity for someone different. But I think that your comment was quite close to the facts. It must surely be wrong to force a group to change because of the homogenizing influence of a diluting factor in one's own culture, especially when forced upon them. There is this perception that this would be what a different group, such as black churches of any denomination, would want, but I strongly disagree. Again, I have never heard such a position promoted before. You can just imagine what the AME churches would say! | ||
| Questioner |
Ah, but George, those few inches make all the difference in the world, just like a little error negates one's whole theology. There is no middle ground on things like this. That document is our ticket to freedom and was purchased at a cost that is very high. Actually what really ticks me off is lack of fairness and just activities by a few who will take any forum to attack anyone or group that they wish to, and heaven help the one who stands up for the truth or even simple justice. The Catholics have a series of commercials that say something to the effect of "If you want peace, work for justice". That makes a lot of sense for Christians. It is unfortunate that many in this forum appear to not want peace. But how about this thought; one can never talk about the differences of skin color or culture or speech using your position. What a narrowing influence that would have on us all. Of course race is an issue, as I pointed out before. In fact, it is often of primary importance to many on many issues. Just one of those is the fact that there seems to be a disproportionate share of non-white males on prison death rows. I can assure you that those people and their communities believe that race means all the difference to them. By the way, I really don't care if you are black as it has nothing to do with your comments. However, I am interested in hearing the comments of black people who have personally experience forced segregation in the SDA church. | ||
| Questioner |
Ah, but George, those few inches make all the difference in the world, just like a little error negates one's whole theology. There is no middle ground on things like this. That document is our ticket to freedom and was purchased at a cost that is very high. Actually what really ticks me off is lack of fairness and just activities by a few who will take any forum to attack anyone or group that they wish to, and heaven help the one who stands up for the truth or even simple justice. The Catholics have a series of commercials that say something to the effect of "If you want peace, work for justice". That makes a lot of sense for Christians. It is unfortunate that many in this forum appear to not want peace. But how about this thought; one can never talk about the differences of skin color or culture or speech using your position. What a narrowing influence that would have on us all. Of course race is an issue, as I pointed out before. In fact, it is often of primary importance to many on many issues. Just one of those is the fact that there seems to be a disproportionate share of non-white males on prison death rows. I can assure you that those people and their communities believe that race means all the difference to them. By the way, I really don't care if you are black as it has nothing to do with your comments. However, I am interested in hearing the comments of black people who have personally experienced forced segregation in the SDA church. | ||
| Questioner |
Oops, sorry everyone. I seemed to have double posted, even though I selected "cancel". Does anyone know how to delete? | ||
| Larimobley |
Wow, I've been reading this thread for a while and would like to make just a few comments. First of all, I think it originally started with a comment that EGWhite was reported to have made that was exceedingly racist. Here's my two cents. I believe that EGWhite was a false prophet because her writings contradict Scripture (and themselves). Whether or not she made racist comments is really a separate issue, and I'm not sure what the value is of debating this. (There are some suggestions in her published writings that are racist, but not to the degree of this reported comment.) Racism being experienced in the church today would be something worth discussing, but not the supposed racist comments of a false prophet whose writings are already clearly (in my opinion, of course) against Scripture--regardless of her beliefs about African-Americans and others. My opinion is that her being racist does not make her any MORE a false prophet than she already is. That said, I'd like to make one positive comment about the SDA church as I experienced it. I was educated exclusively in SDA schools and had close friends from many races--and I did not experience bigotry or segregation from the church first hand. I am not stating that this doesn't exist, just that at Newbury Park Academy and La Sierra University students of all races got along and even dated. This was definitly not okay according to many of our parents (mine included), but it seemed fine to many of us! And I was never taught racism in any religion class. False doctrine, yes. Racism, no. I never personally experienced racism from the SDA church, and left for other reasons entirely. This is just my experience, but I have always been grateful for my SDA background at least in regards to the many races and cultures of people I went to school with and got to know well. In God's grace alone, Lari | ||
| Patti |
Questioner: But if a person says that someone told someone else who told yet another person some supposed quotation that Ellen White said, "God never made the DARKEY". Not only wouldn't a sane person believe hearsay like that, but it was meant to be inflammatory because the objectionable word was all caps. Further, it wasn't written as anything other than fact. Unfortunately, it just isn't. Patti: Questioner, I take it you are SDA or at least a defender of that church. I am not going to try and second guess Colleen and Richard as for the mission of this forum, but, as I see it, this forum was set up for FORMER Adventists. As a support group. It was not set up to try and pull people out of SDAism or to bring about the downfall of the SDA church. It is a place where common people with common experiences can come together for strength and support. Your criticism of those who you claim do not support their statements is moot on this forum. This is not a theological forum; allow me to reiterate: This is a place where we seek support and understanding from others with common experiences. Therefore, if we make an unsubstantiated statement and no former SDA objects to it, in fact accepts it, it must be something that is common to our experience. You cannot document experience; you can only tell it. I have seen repeatedly cases in which someone made a staggering statement, and immediately, several people will ask for a reference. We did not spend years and years in SDAism, having our beliefs dictated to us, for nothing; we, probably more than most other groups, need and demand SUBSTANTIATION, preferably Scriptural, for our beliefs. The last thing we want is to be suckered by another charismatic personality again. For some reason you have chosen to make yourself a part of our fellowship; and you feel you are justified in sitting in criticism at our conversations with each other. I say that we are not necessarily talking to you. If you have not had the same experiences that we have, then you could in no way relate to what we say. Questioner: Here's Patti's quote: "The "no-perfect-church" defense is hardly a justification for the heresies of the SDA church. " No "I believe", or "some have said", or anything nice at all. Patti: Somehow you seem to think that criticizing beliefs of the SDA church is tantamount to sitting in judgment upon an individual person. It is not only our right, it is our DUTY to judge the teachings of EVERY organization that claims a special divine message from God. I can say the same things (exactly) about the Mormons and the JWs. And I can say that without any personal affronts whatsoever, BECAUSE A CHURCH ORGANIZATION IS NOT A PERSON. You and Wendy act as if we have insulted people individually by claiming there are heresies in the teachings of Ellen White and the SDA church. It is interesting but many who are offended by the criticism of a human organization (ie church denomination) have no problem denouncing PEOPLE personally and hostilly for speaking up. It is just not the same thing. A manmade organization is NEVER as important as each individual person that we come in contact with. Questioner: Another type of objectionable comment is the accusation that assumes a certain explanation. Those who do that are not open to discussion. One could easily have taken the quotations about amalgamation another way, but no one bothered to consider that. Patti: It may not be sound RESEARCH, but it is certainly not OBJECTIONABLE. This is not a theological research forum. This is a gathering of friends with common backgrounds. And I don't understand why some wish to disturb the atmosphere here with accusations and insinuations, simply because they are not a part of the particular group and cannot really understand the bond which is shared. Questioner: Heres' a good one: "More and more, as I look at EGW's record and becoming more aware of her manipulative tactics, I am suspicious about her vision from God to build Oakwood College for the "coloured" people. Was this an attempt to keep blacks in their place? The path of least resistance. The appearance of good, but not a heart of love for God's creation. " Come on, people. How about fair play? Patti: I have to echo what George said: If you do not like our conversations, then no one is forcing you to listen. Just curious: Why ARE you here, anyway? I, for one, think that the right of people to be able to voice their concerns and experiences as former SDAs or confused or disturbed SDAs, should be protected; that they should feel "safe" to voice their opinions the best they can without the fear of embarrassment or frustration for being constantly hounded by denominational SDAs who cry "Unfair!" or by zealous scholars who claim that every word must be documented. People (in this case, former SDAs since they are the ones for whom this forum was set up) need to be able to speak, to express their feelings. Without fear of recrimination, without timidity for not being verbally competent, without embarrassment at not being biblical scholars, without being told they are "Dead wrong" or misguided or misled or satanic. And I truly believe that Colleen and Richard do their best to uphold this standard. And I, for one, am very grateful to be able to converse with others who understand where I am coming from. Thank you, Colleen and Richard. Grace and peace always, Patti | ||
| George |
Questioner, I am sorry to see that you missed the point I was trying to make about the few square inchs. I will say again, and then speak no more of it now, Race only matters to those that want to use it for their own gain. Patti, How did you do that? You got all my feelings down on your paper, and for the second time even. Very well done. The best to you----George | ||
| Patti |
Oh, well, George... You know what they say about great minds! :) PS It sure is good to talk with you again! | ||
| Questioner |
Patti, you haven't been paying attention. Please go back and read my posts. Since you want others to do that, I see no reason to reiterate just for you what I've already stated. Or are you implying that I am a liar? And, of course one can document experiences. You also make the implication that all people here have had the same experiences. That is just not true, so your point is unfounded and has been contradicted by the statements of others under this one subject heading. You also missed two other important points. One is that some have indeed written about individuals in the SDA church. Second, some, such as yourself, have used a method of criticism of another organization that is less than courteous and Christian. I've already pointed these things out twice now, so I do hope you catch on this time. You fail to realize that this forum is other than you state. It is most certainly not a discussion with a group of your friends in your living room. It is statements made in public for the whole world to read, which makes my comments quite legitimate indeed. Why did you think that this is somehow shielded from view by outsiders? The constitution of the United States offers all citizens the right of free speech, but that does not give anyone the right to denigrate, to libel or to slander any other person, group, or organization for any reason whatsoever, including because they have some "feelings" which compel them to do so. It is the God-given duty of every citizen to stand up and point out these lawbreakers wherever they are found. And since you know that the forum moderator has set up certain rules which you and others have broken by your own words, if I were you I wouldn't stand there in self-righteous indignation while breaking the laws of the forum and of this fine land. George, "Race only matters to those that want to use it for their own gain" is a statement which is untrue and cannot be supported with fact. Now do you get my point? | ||
| Questioner |
To Patti, George, and that small portion of you who seem so offended by my presence: How long have you been a member of this forum? Did others cut you some slack until they got to know you? Would you do the same for others? Is there any chance that you might be jumping to conclusions about what I write? Since my first forays into your forum in an attempt at finding the very fellowship that you so vocally claim you need, I have been attacked for my view points. But what is odd is that not one word of what I've written has broken any rule of the forum. Not only that, but I have written nothing whatsoever that has been proven wrong by any other member here at any time. What that would appear to represent, my friends, is selective and biased fellowship. That isn't God's way; at least not the God who said "let us reason together". There are only two groups in the world, Christians and all the others. You all have a chance to decide of which group you want to be a part. If you claim to want to be a Christian, then I fully expect to see evidence of that whenever you feel the need to criticize any other organization. I realize that plain words can sometimes offend someone, and for that I apologize. Please know that it is not my intent to offend, but that I must always write the plain and honest truth which I know to be correct from my study of the Bible. As always, I welcome the chance to learn if someone can actually prove something I've written is untrue. To those others who have entered into honest dialogue with me: I thank you. You have made me feel welcome, and I appreciate your willingness to find common ground. You are a credit to the name "Christian". |
