| Author | Message | ||
| Chyna |
warning, this is going to hold some highly emotional personal content from me *sigh*. as you might have read, I have never been adventist, (not even close), having been raised in a series of Baptist and nondenominational churches, it was quite an unfamiliar subject until I got involved with a seventh day adventist. I hadn't realized there were a whole range of beliefs within the Adventist church, from those who highly esteem EGW to those who barely understand her influence on the church. anyway, after some cursory reading I came to the conclusion that my boyfriend was Christian. what i viewed as the biggest dissonant things were EGW, and Sabbath, he told me he thought he was one of the biggest critics of EGW and he agreed that worship was about the heart (he also attended church with me on Sundays a couple times over the summer). so we fell in love -- that was basically the bottom line. hm, maybe i should mention that i am 21, and that this was my first serious relationship. anyway, i thought we were in sync with our beliefs, just that he preferred worshipping on Saturdays and that some people in his denomination revered EGW. right now I'm shaking my head in disbelief, because there were so many different things about our faith. however, he never told me. you see, as a Christian myself, I just thought all Christians were generally harmonious about the main doctrine. a brief look at what I hadn't known: he believes you can lose your salvation (when I ask him how he can't really tell me how), hell is annihilation, Jesus is Michael, Investigative Judgement (somehow he doesn't believe in works salvation, but still believes in IJ), the observance of Sabbath is an important symbol, that children should go through the entire Adventist educational system. anyway, we were really happy until we started talking about sabbath vs. sunday, and things got to the worse point when we started talking about finding a church together. everytime I would approach him with something I had learned about SDA, he would say that I was attacking him. that hurt a lot, as a Christian, i am used to talking to other Christians about differences in doctrine and not taking it personally. for example, I believe women should be ordained. (ask me about it if you want, later), but if someone wants to discuss it with scripture and reasoning then I'm willing to talk to them. however, every time I asked him a new facet of SDA, he'd get frustrated when I would show him scripture and he would show me scripture back. then he would ask for us to agree to disagree, but me (being extremely stubborn) didn't even want to concede that (all right, I know i'm stubborn). as a Christian, I also acknowledge that I'm not going to agree with every facet of doctrine with everyone. anyway, we broke up two weeks ago, and we had been dating for about a year, partly long distance which allowed us not to confront our differences. he broke my heart. we had promised not to break up over religious differences, but it seemed as soon as he was restored to the bosom of his very adventist family (he's third generation), that he said it was too big of a thing to compromise. the ironic thing is that I don't even know a clear statement about his beliefs because he's never discussed them extensively with me. (we're both conflict avoiders). I believe his parents were an influence on his decision pressing him about the fact that I wasn't adventist and wasn't about to become adventist anytime soon. anyway, i'm hurting a lot right now about the whole situation because I sincerely believed if we were both Christian and we loved God and wanted to serve God and seek the truth that we would stay together. We still think that we are both Christian and love God and want to serve God and seek the truth, but apparently, he thinks that I want to corrupt his beliefs. and it's like he shut me out -- he didn't even talk to me about why we should break up, or give me any warning. *sigh* it just looks like a no-win situation. for the past weeks i have been reading everything under the sun about adventism and what orthodoxical christianity has to say in response to the heterodoxical nature of Adventism. here (finally) is my prayer request: he is a Christian. i know that much. I want to talk to him about the doctrines that divide us. please pray that his heart and mind and ears will be open to hearing what I have to say, that he won't get defensive and clam up. pray that God will guide my words so they'll pierce his heart. also pray for my listening skills (i'm prone to interrupting), that I'll listen earnestly to what he has to say. also pray that healing will occur in me, because I feel bereaved, quite honestly. also pray that he'll still want to study the Bible with me. if anything, I hope that God will still use me as a seed planter. my request for advice: what would be the best way to ask him what his actual beliefs are? he hates the way I ask him now which is everytime I find a doctrine that is odd about SDAs I ask him "do you believe ... this?" and what is reasonable to expect from an extensive study together? should I just expect nothing? *sigh* my problem is I just want to take the keystone and kick it out of the arch so the whole things crumbles. but then again, like someone else had said without the new heart, the old one can't go. the other thing that is so painful for me is this: because I'm not a traditional Adventist, he doesn't want to be with me. I've never regreted being protestant, but I can't help be so hurt and frustrated that this denomination is so closed and exclusive. while they say they accept others as Christians, they just do not agree about so many things. it feels like a painful sham. exterior acceptance, but interior rejection. God's love is unifying, from what i know personally from my experience, is SDA is not earnestly seeking unification with the rest of God's family. so, i just need lots of prayer. all of you have been such a blessing to me. I know I hadn't revealed before how exactly painful this subject of Adventism has been for me being a continual source of conflict between myself and my former boyfriend. this site gives me hope. my concern is that my former boyfriend doesn't seem to be as mired in legalism as other SDA's have related. it's a much more subtle thing (well what's not so subtle is dumping me b/c i'm not SDA), but a subtle imbuing of beliefs -- the way he'll say other Christians are worshipping on Sunday and that's fine, but that's how the Pope decreed it, and how he thinks he should really worship on Saturday (it is weird that he can't call it saturday, also), or that he believes in salvation based on grace alone without works, but then can believe that you can do something to lose your salvation... it's so tricky. only a miracle ... would unravel him and his convoluted doctrine. please pray for a miracle. i will be talking to him this wednesday. pray for my studies, for my attitude towards him. i love him so much, it hurts so much to try to let him go because of these divisive things. although, we were talking the other day and i was insisting that a lot of his doctrine came from EGW, and he insisted right back that they were from the bible, and finally in frustration i said, "Ellen G. White predecessed those beliefs, everything that you believe, she wrote first." and there was a pause on the other end of the phone. maybe there was one seed. love in Christ, Chyna | ||
| Cindy |
Chyna, I am glad you are here 'talking' with us. You are so wise for your age! At 21 I was in a fog, barely caring about spiritual issues. I can see with you it is because of your belief in Jesus and openess to the Holy Spirit. He has, and will continue, to give you wisdom and strength! What you wrote above is so true: "I can't help be so hurt and frustrated that this denomination is so closed and exclusive. while they say they accept others as Christians, they just do not agree about so many things. it feels like a painful sham. exterior acceptance, but interior rejection. God's love is unifying, from what i know personally from my experience, is SDA is not earnestly seeking unification with the rest of God's family." Yes, it is an "exterior acceptance," but an "interior rejection." And most sincerely want to be open-minded and accepting of other Christians, but their belief system CANNOT totally accept other Christians as being valid followers of Christ in the long run! These are the undeniable facts of the matter: Other Christians are considered in Christ because they have not seen the light of the necessity of "keeping" the Sabbath... which goes along with seeing the "remnant" as being the Adventist Church with their identifying mark of having a true prophet (Ellen White). Once other Christians are presented with these truths, if they are then rejected, Adventists cannot comprehend the statement that Jesus is Enough! The more kind-hearted ones will try to keep "working" with those who disagree and hope they can convince them... or else figure they will be finally convinced when a Sunday Law is passed. The Ministerial Association of the General Conference of SDA's sponsor 'PREACH' seminars that have Non-Adventist clergy speaking along with an Adventist minister. Non-Adventists clergy are invited to attend for fellowship and to show the openess of Adventist clergy and that they are one in faith. But the underlying purpose is to build a bond between them so that the real truths of Adventism can be eventually be accepted. As noted here, there are many grace-oriented thinkers and writers in SDAism, but the bottom line is this Remnant theology and it comes down to the Sabbath 'truth.' I've asked those who enjoy such writers and speakers as Billy Graham, Phillip Yancey, Chuck Swindoll, and Max Lucado why these men are blessed even when they blatently go against the fourth commandment...the thought is, if they are honest men they will finally see the light. It is a total mystery and they are baffled to see a joyous Christian who rejects these 'truths'. So I will pray for you in your efforts with your former boyfriend. If he really sees Jesus as being central to his life, there may be hope. But you may have a continuing heartache with his family, especially if, and when, grandchildren arrive. You mentioned that you thought his parents were influencing him...And I'm sure they very sincerely believe these 'truths' without any real malice intended towards you. (For them, it is just a matter of following what God COMMANDED us to do and, if we love Him, we will do it!). It's just the way they interpret Scripture. I agree also with you that Scripture is interpretated through Ellen White. Not even consciously!! They insist it is the Bible alone, but most have been brought up to read the bible through the eyes of this "inspired" commentator of Scripture, the "lesser light" (EGW) to lead us to the greater light (the Bible). Unfortunately, this lesser light defines what is said in the greater light! Blessings and prayers to you, Chyna! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Bmorgan |
Well Chyna, Cindy's response is brilliant! I also find you an astute, well versed, young christian apologist I think you would be an asset to this (any)young man. I am sorry about your heartbreak. It is extremely difficult to show even a sincere, honest-hearted SDA truth from scripture. They are INNOCULATED against it. Cindy is right:, <it is an "exterior acceptance," but an "interior rejection." And most sincerely want to be open-minded and accepting of other Christians, but their belief system CANNOT totally accept other Christians as being valid followers of Christ in the long run! "having continuing heartache from his family especially if and when they are grandchildren."> Like Ritchie said, SDA's attitude is: "I am right and you're wrong. Since we are the right church our doctrines are correct and the Bible supports them." It is a bondage of an insidious nature. They feel superior to the cultish Jehovah's Witness, etc. and even the other mainline denominations who embrace them as orthodox. Your ex-boyfriend may have serious dissonance and state he is a critic of EGW, but deep down he knows that to doubt adventism is the beginning of his downward plunge to perdition. SDA have a nice tidy package with all the right answers. His thinking, like numerous SDAs may be: 'I may not be able to defend the faith, but I know that we are the true church. There are inconsistencies, but you have to accept SDAism/Sabbath.' Remember He is wearing dark "White" glasses. You said he is not legistic, however, be warned, it makes no difference. He honestly does not know you MAY be right about scripture. Emotionally it would be harder still. There are families who feel safer if their children are indifferent to the church, and live like heathens than accept and join a denomination other than SDA. My advice; pray, pray, and pray some more that the bondage will be broken. Colleen keeps reiterating her strong belief that Satan has a hold over adventism. I agree with her. You have done well asking us to join you in prayer. Continue being a joyous, spirit filled christian Share with him what Christ is doing in your life. The life changing reality of Jesus in your life will prick his heart deeper than any scripture you can "attack" him with. Introduce him to this website. Tell or let him read the experiences of other SDAs, who have been where he is right now. Refrain from any counter arguments with him. Adventists are most comfortable with arguments. State what scripture says and leave it at that. I pray that the peace of God which transcends all understanding, guard your heart and mind as you plant the seeds of truth. God chose you and appointed you to bear fruit which would last, for anything you ask in His name He will give. God bless you, Chayna. Remaining in Christ Alone. BMorgan | ||
| Colleentinker |
Dear Chyna, I feel for you. A breakup is always heartbreaking, but to break up over GODóthat's excruciating. I want to say "Amen" to Cindy and to Bmorgan above. I also want to underscore what both of them have said about the ongoing heartache and pain of being in an Adventist family when you're not an Adventist. Adventism, truly, is more like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism than mainline Christianity. Besides their doctrines, their lifestyle and their expectations and their inbred culture insulate members from the outside world. It is very deliberate that they have their own school system (often boarding schools) and a powerful but unspoken social pecking order. Bmorgan is right: your ex probably does not even entertain the possibility that you might be reading the Bible correctly. Adventists are taught that they have the truth, and they explain carefully how all other viewpoints are wrong. No matter how grace-oriented they are, they believe on the bottom line that only Adventistism has ultimate truth. Even though many of them say they don't buy EGW (I was in that boat for many years), they still believe that no other church has as much Biblical correctness as Adventists. Just hold in your mind that there are several crucial doctrinal problems with Adventism that actually calls into question whether they truly are orthodox Christians. These include: the Investigative Judgment, the Sabbath, the continuing 10 Commandments and the belief that the New Covenant is really just another name for the Old Covenant, their belief that the Old Testament is just as binding for Christians as the New, the fact that instead of reading the OT through the fulfillment of the New, they read the NT in the light of the Old; the belief in a great controversy between Christ and Satan in which they are fighting essentially as equals and which humans will help Jesus to win; soul sleep; and perhaps most sinister of all, the belief which EGW taught: Jesus was born with sinful human nature. If Jesus was born with a sinful nature, he could not have been God. They hold to the sinful nature theory, though, because they believe that Jesus was our example. If he could be born with a sinful nature and not sin, then we, too, can accomplish sinlessness. In reality, Adventism is a cult in a way similar to Mormonism, and Satan has a claim over it. That's why your boyfriend can't see truth. God may have sent you into your boyfriend's life to plant seeds and to spark curiosity. We will pray for you and for him. I also pray that God will reveal his perfect plan for you and will heal your broken heart. God is sovereign. He wastes nothing and he redeems everything. And his surprises are always more than anything we could have imagined! With His love and prayers, Colleen | ||
| Lydell |
Chyna, I'm so sorry to hear of this break up. I only want to add a little to what the others have already shared with you. IF this relationship is something God intends to head toward marriage, your boyfriend will turn around. But that change would have to be something that happened before marriage...not after! When God designs a marriage between Christians, I truly believe He does so with two people who are basically on the same level of spiritual growth. That's not to put you on a pedestal and say that your boyfriend is down in the gutter. Let me use an example to explain. You have already realized, I think, that your understanding of the assurance and method of salvation is clear. But it is the rare SDA who can freely say, "yep, I'm saved," because Ellen White told them that was a dangerous thing to do. Your boyfriend does not have that comfortable understanding of salvation, most likely. In his mind, there is an unconscious "but..." that automatically adds, "well if she is really! a Christian, then she will start keeping the sabbath". That has been ingrained in him since he was a child. Should you marry, it would almost certainly be passed on to your children by him or his family. Consider the difficulty of that carefully. Try to imagine for a moment how it would feel to leave home each Sunday to go to your church knowing what he is thinking. Try to imagine what it will be like to experience an awesome move of the Spirit during church and come home and be unable to share that with him. It is never fair or wise to enter any marriage with the attitude that the other person will change for the better after you marry. While it is so obvious that you are sorely hurting right now, it is a kindness that you have seen the problems now. I know that doesn't change your hurt at all right now, tho! And I'm praying for your healing as well! Chyna, the thing I want to assure you of is this: IF this relationship does not work out, then it is because God has something else in mind for you. And that thing is going to bring you such tremendous joy and peace because it will be of HIS design. Keep seeking His face for His direction. I wish so much I had the words to help you understand this now! But marriage to the one whom GOD has designed for you is truly something beyond what you have ever experienced in any friendship. There will be a real unity spiritually. If there is something that stands in the way of that spiritual unity being possible, trouble is absolutely inevitable. Life and marriage are not easy, so much stuff is going to come your way. It makes a tremendous difference to be able to open up to your spouse and share what is going on inside of you spiritually as well as mentally and emotionally. Don't short change yourself of that! | ||
| Ritchie |
Hi, Chyna! I think I can relate to how your ex thinks. I was not a legalist (for the most part) but guarded the unique teachings of the church. The changes (spiritual growth, opening of my eyes, etc) came about in many stages through various circumstances--a divorce, accepting the reality of the dysfunctions in my family of origin, change of career, rejection by traditional SDAs, etc., etc. The point is this: I truly believe that there are two prerequisites for an SDA to wake up to the tragic flaws of the doctrines of the church: 1) the working of the Holy Spirit in their life to show them their destitute condition; 2) some major crisis in their life. The first time I understood the simple idea of God's grace, I went about wishing that all my friends (as well as co-pastors!) in the church would experience some tragedy or something awful just to jolt their senses and knock them out of their stupor. I've tried the head trip--reason and logic--but that doesn't work. See what your ex is up against? Here's more: as if the doctrinal issues weren't enough, he has the SDA subculture to deal with (you already referred to that). There is this intricate web of ideas, practices, personal networks, etc. that he is trapped in. I'm not trying to discourage you or anything--this is just a reality check. Here are some options I've come up with: 1. Go after him and do the Pauline thing of 'being like the Jew in order to win the Jew'. This can be depressing but if you really want him, this is one way to do it. Yup! I'm suggesting hanging out with Adventists and maybe even becoming an Adventist with the hope that you both walk out of it together someday. 2. Can you just remain friends and coax him along (like introducing him to this forum, studying together, etc.)? And then, maybe, he will see the light and you guys will drive into the sunset! 3. Separate the issues: your relationship with him and your own search for truth and enlightenment. Here's a principle I've taught to my seniors in Bible class: Reaching your goals is not the important thing; it is the process that counts. So you've had a relationship with an SDA and it flopped. Focus on the process; this is where God does wonders. 4. Pray that he meets the 'prerequisites' I've suggested and then take it from there. I hope this helps. ...Later! | ||
| Chyna |
dear friends, thank you for all of your advice, and I continue to ask for your prayers. inside my mind are two warring factions. the first is what my role and responsibility is as a Christian. the second is my personal and emotional involvement and investment in this person I love. truth -- it seems to have a voice that is more insistent than any other in my head. everytime I hear the word 'Sabbath' i cringe because attached to it in my mind is legalism, and a symbol that should be put to rest, and not actively sought. then whenever i hear the words of investigative judgement, or ellen g. white, things flash in my mind like warning signs about losing your salvation, or being judged according to your deeds. in fact warning bells go off all the time when I start reading about Adventism. hm, for some reason, the phrase from a verse in Isaiah, "come let us reason together ..." keeps popping into my brain. more than anything, I want to be an overflowing vessel of God's love, but my humanness seems to get in the way. sorry for the miscellaneous thoughts, but I'm not a very linear thinker. thank you for clarifying which are the most prominent and divisive issues about SDA. because it's a good point for me to start. God has been teaching me many things. Experience has also taught me things also ... like examining another's Christian's doctrine earlier than later ;) especially if I mean to get romantically involved with him. to be honest, whenever I show my ex-b/f any of the testimonies on the page, he just attributes them to other churches. i just think it's odd the displacement of responsibility. if someone told me that in the Baptist church down the road, they were teaching that Satan was Jesus' equal I would be like, "why are they teaching that?" it's odd, it's like they have their version of doctrine that they ascribe to, and if people have different versions that's all right, as long as they don't have to adjust their version of Adventism... when I think of my personal growth in Jesus Christ, I've learned a lot of beautiful wonderful things from people within the baptist denomination, but in other areas too, like Catholicism, nondenominational, Tao. God teaches us everywhere. sure we might criticize the Catholic church for all its rituals, but to my friend Kim, they are wonderfully familiar ways to affirm her faith, who am I to judge? sorry, sidetracked again. but the point is that I don't feel like he is willing to learn. he claimed that he was a truth seeker, but now that the opportunity has arisen for us to seek the truth together, he has totally made a 180 degree turn and doesn't want to anymore. i still get so frustrated about the sabbath issue. the loudest voice in my head is that it shouldn't be such a focal point of Christianity. there are so many other wonderful topics to learn about in the Bible about God and our walk. thank you for your perspectives about a potential permanent relationship. my ex-b/f is extremely close to his family, parents, and for him to leave the SDA church would be monumentally disasterous (in their eyes). he plans to become a medical missionary sponsored by the adventist church. if he were to disavow the adventist church he would no longer have that venue of them paying for his entire medical school education by serving for 6 years abroad. so he is invested, not only spiritually, but also in his livelihood as well. i am applying for medical school this year also. oh, the reason we got together is because we both said we wanted to become medical missionaries. formerly i had never imagined that i would have a spouse to go with me into the missions field (i was so excited at the prospect that *sigh* i wasn't so careful). sometimes i just get so frustrated when he says that he doesn't believe the SDA's have the corner on truth, but yet he doesn't think any other church has anything to teach him differently on those heterodoxical doctrines he has. like i said before, external seeming openness, but internal complete shut down. although, i do love him, regardless. there is still a possibility i will attend Loma Linda myself for medical school. although, there are other facets besides the spiritual involved here because my ex-b/f is already considering getting involved with an adventist girl. and even if it isn't this girl it'll be another one. so, he's running. besides our different doctrine, his propensity to doing hit-and-run commitment relationships would be a tremendous barrier in us being able to be friends. scarcely a week after he broke up with me, he informed me that he was talking to an adventist girl (whose family is close to his) about her moving from wherever to California for a relationship with him. yes, i know, he is a jerk. one wonders why I haven't just ditched this guy. this probably is the lowest point he could get in my estimation, but love covers everything, every wrong. rationally if I was advising someone else on the situation, I would tell them to get out before they get hurt more. as my best friend has advised me upon hearing this news. still, my love for him prevails even before my pride. on one level I realize that this break up is good because it has open my eyes in ways they had never been before about our relationship and gives me an opportunity to share with him. but on the gut level, I am still heartbroken over it. in Christ, Chyna | ||
| Steve |
Hi Chyna, I can't add much to what the others have written. But let me just say this -- I married into the church. I thought it was just another Christian church. My marriage is just about over, almost entirely (and primarily) due to my rejection of, and wanting to leave, the SDA church. If you were to marry this man, and later you were to come to the conclusion that SDA theology is really corrupt, it could result in terrible consequences for the two of you. And if you had kids (as my wife and I do) it would simply compound the situation to extreme degrees. If I had pursued the theology more carefully early in our relationship, we wouldn't be where we are today. (Although I could NEVER wish that we didn't have our kids!, I love them so much.) God bless you, Chyna, Steve | ||
| Lydell |
Chyna, remember that you are a loved daughter of the King of the universe! The king has so much more planned for you in a relationship than this man is willing or capable of giving you. You are deserving of someone who gives himself to you without a sidewards glance. Don't let satan try to tell you otherwise. | ||
| Cindy |
Chyna, How fortunate you are to have your eyes open... and your ears unplugged to be able to hear 'warning bells'!! You wrote: "warning bells go off all the time when I start reading about Adventism. hm, for some reason, the phrase from a verse in Isaiah, "come let us reason together ..." keeps popping into my brain." I like that Scripture, too! I understand the type of love that rationalizes many things. Wanting to live in Grace and Forgiveness, and wanting the other person to experience this, too!... But sometimes we just have to step back and realize that our efforts to convince them are not working. Sometimes love has to just LET GO and leave that person in God's hands! And this is an extrememly hard thing to do. Easier at your stage of a relationship, but very difficult none-the-less. A passage from Isaiah I've always loved, and it applies no matter if you're married or not... "For your Maker is your husband-- the Lord Almighty is his name-- the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, he is called the God of all the earth." Is.54:5 And also, all the promises repeated in the Psalms that continually emphasize GOD'S FAITHFULNESS and LOVE, in spite of the actions of humans... Only He can satisfy the 'desires of your heart' and He will be with you through all your journeyings! How blessed you are, Chyna, to have seen the supremacy of Jesus!, Always Grace, Cindy | ||
| Chyna |
hello, one thing I realized as I went to church today is that for my ex-b/f to actually come to terms with any doctrine that is different than his background in adventism, is that it would take a total ... what is the phrase I'm looking for? a total shift of consciousness. right now, the most dependable thing in his life is Adventism. it's all he's ever known. his grandparents are adventist, his parents, all of his relatives, all of his schoolfriends. like I had stated before, his livelihood is dependent on Adventism as well. one thing I realize also, is that the way he dealt with our relationship was out of *fear*. for him to believe in some of the doctrine that I want to share with him would force him to look at the core of Adventism, the core of his life's existence. who would he be without adventism? what would his identity be? who would be his support and encouragement if he left? although he said he wanted to study the bible with me as soon as the opportunity arose for us to study together, he fled in the opposite direction, even into a 'safe' potential relationship with an Adventist who wouldn't challenge his beliefs. when people challenge my beliefs I see it as an opportunity to think about what I believe and why. it says in the bible to always have a ready defense. another thing that the Adventist church does not espouse is unity of faith. today at my church we were learning how we have One God, One faith, One Father, One hope. God's love is unifying and not divisive. Who is divisive? Satan. So when he withdrew from me because of our differences in doctrine, he was essentially acting out of God's will because God's love unites, and does not cause dissention. i realize now what i have been up against this entire time talking to him. for him there is a line, nonAdventists, and Adventists, even though he is closer to the line than some Adventists, he is still on that side with all his ties and connections, his history, his background, his future, his dreams, his family, and friends holding him to that side. on the other side is me, alone trying to explain about a whole other perspective on life. unless he is willing to venture onto the other side, talking to him won't sway him because he cannot give up his adventist ties to his identity. he doesn't realize that his identity is not in Christ, but actually in Adventism. he probably does believe his foremost identity is in Christ, but it is not, it is to his past, and to his dreams of the future all made possible by adventism. Jesus said to the man who wanted to say goodbye to his family first before he followed him to hate his family and cling to Him. That is how defining Christianity should be, that we would willingly excise ties to even those whom we love. it is safe to say that he believes God is on the Adventist side of the line, when he doesn't realize that God doesn't have lines :). anyway, i thank God for blessing me with His wisdom, please pray that I will be able to talk to my ex-b/f with 'truth in love' because that ultimately will win the day. in Christ, Chyna | ||
| Colleentinker |
Dear Chyna, God wants to heal both you and your ex b/f. The Holy Spirit will continue to deal with him; he's heard truth, and he can never go back to the place he was before he heard it. He may have someone else in mind to water the seeds, and still someone else in mind to reap the harvest. But He will continue to deal with him. I believe, dear Chyna, that God wants you to arrive at a point where you can lay this relationship before Him with absolutely no tiny corner held back from Him. Lay it before God, and ask him to take care of it. Ask Him to take the heartache and pain and to walk beside you as you experience your devastation. Ask God to heal you of this relationship if that is His will, and ask Him to show you what His will really is. Be willing to let God show you reality and truth. Be willing to give up everything for the sake of Christ. None of us knows what God's will for your realtionship is, but we can know that a guy who tells you he's considering dating an SDA girl whom he already knows is a guy who's telling you he's moving on. God asks us to let go of everything we hold most dear. He cannot give us his heart's desire for us until we let go of what we preceive we want. The reality is that God's plans nearly always surprise us, and they're far more satisfying than anything we could dream up! Holding you and your ex in prayer, Colleen | ||
| Chyna |
thank you for your advice and prayers Colleen. if there is anything I believe in, it is the power of prayer. you are correct that I need to let go of hope in my own abilities to talk to my ex-b/f but to solely rely on God and His Holy Spirit to work in marvelous ways that I can't even imagine or begin to dream about. in a way, the more I understand the situation with my ex-b/f, the more I realize that I had fulfilled my part in our relationship. I had been honest, upfront, earnest, truthful, and loving. the key piece that I had not known about were his Adventist beliefs, which I now believe he did not discuss with me because he wanted to be with me and decided not to tell me. so while I am upset at him for his deception I understand his weakness. thank you everyone for all your encouragement and prayers. it has all been a very big blessing to me to know that your prayers are with me and for my former sweetheart. | ||
| Sherry2 |
Prayer request: River of Life church in Grand Rapids. Pastor is studying with the SDA's at their recent Revelation Seminar. Many of his members are too. They are accepting these messages quite regularly. Already making a Sabbath time to meet at their church in addition to Sunday. I do not know his name. I will be speaking with a couple from their church to share with them info. on Ellen as they are reading one of her books right now. Please pray. The Rev. Seminars have 1,000 people a night. Here we live in GR, absolutely jammed packed with churches. There is obviously quite a spiritual hunger in our town despite that fact. Shame on the rest of us! Please pray. Thank you. | ||
| Chyna |
another thing, status. my ex said that his family was 'high profile' in the community ... i can only think this meant this in the adventist community. that must be a hard thing to give up. not only to be a wholly accepted and loved member of the community, but also to have the status one of the prominent ones. also, lifestyle. the culture that goes along with adventism influences so much of the lifestyle. my ex could not even fathom a week without a sabbath observance... more thoughts, Chyna | ||
| Colleentinker |
You are quite right, Chyna. Adventism has a very real structure of power and prestige. It is, of course, "unofficial", but a person's social standing in the Adventist community is very important. If one is a physician, he has status almost automatically. With that profession comes money, education, and the blessing of EGW who authorized the establishment of the "medical missionary work" as the "right arm of the message". Next to physicians, anyone with a well-paying, highly educated profession has status: i.e. dentists, lawyers, etc. Also anyone in the church structure has statusóconference officers and professors have quite high status, followed by pastors and teachers of lower rank. The professions which earn big dollars or which establish a person in a position of denominational power are the most "high profile". A person who does not have a medical degree or conference employment can work hard and earn him/herself some status by contributing respectable, creative work in areas such as journalism, science, engineering, etc. But unless they earn quite a bit of money, they really do have to "earn" their position, and the truth is that in Adventist schools, their children, regardless of native talent or intelligence, will not usually be in the highest level of the "in crowd" unless they really distinguish themselves socially in some way. Also, if a child in an Adventist school comes from a non-SDA or a half-SDA home, s/he will automatically not be welcomed into the inner circle. Any status they earn will indeed be the result of hard work. Some of these non-SDA distinctions are less clear in large urban SDA schools. But the reality is still there on the bottom line, and the status that comes with money and priveledge is even more noticeable in the large urban schools than in the smaller, outlying ones. It's all unspoken but very powerful. It's hard to explain itóit seems normal (if frustrating) when you're in it, and from the outside it seems unlikely. It's just another of those subtle but powerful realities that is part of the SDA lifestyle. Colleen | ||
| Ericlandstrom |
The following is a post I made to a friend about where is it in the N.T. regarding not putting an image before God. My pal Carol is also a sabbath keeper. While I give answer to that; all you need to tie this in with sabbath keeping is reading Colossians 2 and Hebrews 4, and understanding 1 Corinthians 5:7. In a nutshell the sabbath is our rest right? But in the flesh can we ever have rest? When can we really have rest? When we enter into the kingdom of heaven. Hebrews 4 talks about entering into a rest in the tabernacle of God. Colossians 2 tells us let no man judge you by what day you keep holy. 1 Cor, 5:7 tells us Jesus is our passover. What is the highest Sabbath? Right, its the passover. So Jesus Christ Himself is our place of rest. Where is that place? In the Spirit. This is the "key" that was lost in Luke 11:52, sometimes refered to as the "key of David". So what is this "key"? Rev. 15:3 gives us a mondo clue. It tells us the saints in heaven are doing two things. Their singing the song of the Lamb (Gospel) and the song of Moses. The song of Moses is found in Deut. 32. You may want to come running into it from the end of Deut. chapter 31. Anyway, it tells us a couple of things. What is going to happen to the Jews and also to seek refuge in the Spirit. Now Moses also wrote Psalm 90 which being a song, teaches us what is our dwelling place. We don't know who wrote Psalm 91, but it "fits". It urges us to dwell in a secret place. Well it's not secret to the believer! Living in the Spirit. Worshiping in the Spirit. The Spirit is our refuge, our rest! This may sound fantastic, but trust me if you read all the verses I've given you with a submissive heart to God in consideration to Him the Bible will explode it's mysteries onto you! Anyway, reading my post to my buddy Carol below ought to give you the depth needed to really understand what is going on in the Scripture. I generally don't get into cutting and pasting the verses I reference, as I want you with the guidance of the Spirit to understand it all for yourself. I maybe able to tell you about the temple, but a wise teacher does not bid you to enter the house of wisdom but rather leads you to the threshold of it. If all this clicks, then being "in Christ" is going to give you a whole new level of understanding! I also offer you up in my prayers, and my prayers have a way of being answered. Remember where ever there are two believers in agreement, the Lord WILL answer! We've got a majority! Rejoice in the Spirit my sister! And BTW, thank you for giving me an opportunity to teach. I've been in the trenches so long slugging it out with cults, I'd forgotten what a joy it is to teach the wisdom of the Lord! Thank you for the blessing! : Carol consider Mat 22:36-40 Gal 5:14 Mark 12:29-34. : Review the verses in the order I gave them. : it is important to know there are three kinds of love in the Bible that I know of. : 1) There is a lusty love. : 2) There is a brotherly or sisterly love that one would have for family and what not. : 3) And there is a MORAL love. Most people have no idea what a moral love is. It is the kind of love spoken of in all these verses. In Greek they have three different words to describe these three loves. In English we have one word for love. The English word love can also encompass a covetness love in its meaning, but to the best my knowledge a covetness love is not Biblical. : Here is the answer I believe your looking for: If you are loving the God of Israel then you shall not put an image before Him. : But more importantly. If you are willingly loving God and your neighbor then their is no need for the law. Get my drift? : If there is no rule breaking, there is no need for rules. In this way God reveals that it is our love he desires and not our offerings. : Thus our moral righteous and just God, is a God of Love. But above the Lord's Godly emotions He is a God of Justice. Knowing that will allow you to smell many a rat from a mile away. : However as Satan likes to work the margins or extremes on many many things. When we introduce legalism into the mix we devalue what the work of the cross is (See Romans 8:2 again). : It is good that you do set aside a day for the Lord. As we know it was never changed by obvious scripture from the seventh day to the first day. And most of the folks that say that it is good to set the Sabbath on the first day don't understand why. Suffice it to say that EVERYDAY is a holy day. But let no man judge you as to what day you keep holy (Col. 2:16). : If you need more explaination let me know, but I think you've got it. Also Dr. Patti can explain this better coming from the SDA church, as my angle comes from the Spirit. : Just remember than Old Testament Levite High Priests used to make an attonment once a year for the entire nation by entering into the holy of holies the tabernacle of God. Now by the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus you and I can enter into the spiritual tabernacle ANYTIME we want; going before Lord God Jesus and ask forgiveness. Thus now we are members of a high and royal priesthood! Because we can do this ANYTIME, EVERYDAY, and EVERY moment is a high and holy day! : There's more to it, but this is good enough to kick off a study. also if you already knew all this forgive my eager fingers, for they love to speak of the Lord! : | ||
| Chyna |
dear colleen, thank you for disclosing to me more about the adventist culture/society. I would have never realized how much adventism has it's own hierarchy. i realize now that while i could join an adventist church and be somewhat all right with some adjustment (i would still have friends, family, outside the SDA network), for him to leave the adventist church for anything else would estrange him from everything that he knows. all that is familiar: his education, family, friends. i find it so sad that it is intertwined with his identity. i know the question 'are you saved if you leave the church?' is the question you ask if you are in a cult. but in his case the question is 'if you left the church, who would you be?' and that, is a very difficult question to face, maybe even harder. with love, Chyna | ||
| Dennis |
Chyna, My wife and I recently left Adventism after over forty years as devout members. Having served as an SDA minister in my younger days, I can verify that THE INSIDE STORY that Colleen related is indeed factual and true. I can sense the Holy Spirit working in the lives of those that posted above. Men are supposed to be tearless, but I confess writing this with some emotion. Thank you for sharing your story with us. I will pray that God will continue to lead in your life and your ex/boyfriend as well. Isn't it wonderful to belong to Jesus? | ||
| Chyna |
dear dennis, thank you so much for your prayers. i struggle with the grief and loss of my ex-b/f. there is hope mingled with sadness because i read these stories on adventism and can see that ppl will stay in adventism from anywhere from 20-50 years in the SDA church. but i guess it is all in God's hands and His timing. yes, I am blessedly His. Beloved by Christ. today i sat up stunned listening to the radio, because the speaker talked about asking a man if he was a Christian. i realized I have NEVER asked my ex-b/f his personal testimony. for two people that are dedicated to God, we never talked about the way we were saved. through this heartbreak, God has taught me more about His Word than I have learned in months. the necessity of immersing in the Word has rekindled my passion for the scriptures and renewed my awareness of God's unconditional love for me. thank you so much again for your loving response, Chyna |
