| Author | Message | ||
| Ken |
Hi Chyna: I really don't get why, when you can't let the Bible do it's own Revelations you've got to jump ship to early christian writings. You know if you really step back and look at yourself trying to explain off the Ten commandments and following christ what exactly are you doing by those reactions? Isn't a Christian sombody that follows Christ? Everyone here talks about the freedom and grace from following Christ, yet no one follows his examples! I like how you always point your browser to anti-Adventist sites to learn what we believe, I'm sure your being fed exactly what you want. Why not go to a site that actually knows and teaches what the Adventist Church belives? I suggest you go to www.amazingfacts.org. It would be a great date with your ex-boyfriend. You can call us Sabbitarians if you like, and maybe I should call you sundaytarians beacuse you sure aren't following the way Christ lived. The statement you made about thinking the Ten Commandments was refering to keeping sunday holy...come on let's be honest how could you possibly get that out of the Ten Commandments? "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it" Exodus 20:8-11 As you can plainly see this asks you to remember to keep the Sabbath day. God knew that most of his children would forget the Sabbath/Him. And it must be special if he blessed & hallowed the Sabbath! Many here on this board say that the commandments weren't in effect since sin entered in. Just a question for thought how did Cain know that killing was breaking the Law? Why did he lie to try and cover it up? Did Jesus communicate with God? Why diden't God say, hey I goofed up with the 10 Commandments, you know I really ment to write into stone just 9 of them, so lets just scratch the 4th OK. Also David was just joking when he wrote the following, right? "The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure." Psa. 111:7 You'll notice he diden't say Moses's laws at the same time, they are totally different. Chyna your turning your back on the Bible & running off to read your early christian writings to prove that sunday is the Lord's day is no different then your ex-boyfriend bringing up writings by Ellen White, is it? Many on here say that the Commandments were done away with, but cannot explain why in Revelation it says "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Rev. 14:12 Notice it does not say just "faith of Jesus" it also says "Commandments of God"...and I don't think John is including (as many here do) the 600 some odd that Joshua Tree likes to include in his study of Gods & Moses "bundled law & commandments". Ken | ||
| Sherry2 |
Remeber Chyna and everyone else, what you already heard from Bill Thompson, endless debate could go on forever, and let's wait until Ken shares with us his testimony with the questions Bill put forth. Could you do that for us Ken? We would like to hear from you on these things. Let me restate those questions Bill put forth: In you testimony please address specificly --What you are trusting in for salvation. --Did the blood of Jesus cover just your past sins or ALL your sins? --Do you have a firm assurance of salvation? I'll be happy to continue the sabbath discussion with you AFTER I hear your testimony and know that you have a secure assurance of your own salvation. | ||
| Lori |
Ken, You continue to quote the same "Remember the Sabbath day" but you never quote the scriptures just prior to it. The ones that say, "these are the commands I give to Israel" Have you ever read the texts that identify the 10 Commandments as The Covenant with Israel--the same covenant that is identified as being thrown out in Hebrews 4:21- 5:1 In Romans 9-11, Paul is speaking to Israel, his heart is burdened greatly for them. He is reaching back to the OT principles that they understood. In Chapter 10, he tries to open their eyes so they will see that salvation has always been by faith, it has never been salvation by faith plus observance of the law. He contrasts work-righteousness with faith-righteousness to demonstrate they are not compatible, not mixable. He is trying to tell them that salvation is right there, in their mouth and heart (mind), that salvation is an internal function, not something that has to be gone after and retrieved (we don't have to have someone come down from heaven or up from hell to bring it to us, it is already near us.) It is not an outward action that saves. The problem with Adventist doctrines is they have collectively mixed every command of God for every people and made self application. Adventist place guilt upon others to obey the 10 commandments, because God is always the same, "yesterday, today and forever." This is taken out of context. The true context for him being "always the same" is referring to his faithfulness to us, in vast contrast to our unfaithfulness to him. It is not applicable to the law. Paul was given the revelation of the mystery that had been concealed. The testimony of Jesus of grace, was the beginning of the revealing of the mystery. Meaning that there was part of God's plan that was not revealed to the OT prophets, they didn't know about it then......they didn't know about the indwelling of the Spirit, and what that meant...but God didn't add it to what existed for Israel, he replaced what was given to Israel with the mystery that was revealed through Jesus Christ and preached through his servant Paul. The Adventist church has effectively replaced the writings of Paul with the teachings of EGW. Paul is in direct opposition to the things that EGW wrote. One example is the state of the dead....when you read Paul's comments about death it is quite obvious that he did not believe he was going to sleep in the grave. He knew when he died that he was going to be "absent from the body and face to face with God" You asked why people read from non-Adventist sites to find out what Adventist believe--it's because you don't find the truth by studying the false. In order to see the errors of false doctrines you have to study the word of God so you know the truth; and when you compare other doctrines to the truth the false hood is no longer concealed. Most of the people you are communicating with on this site have been avid Adventist, myself included. I was heavily involved in the Adventist church, teaching children's classes, music coordination, choir leader and I lead out in more adult Sabbath School programs than I care to remember. It sickens me to realize how I stood before others and likely made them feeling guilty because they didn't enjoy the Sabbath hours. I didn't either but I could play the game just like everybody else!!!! I had a perfect Sabbath face. Most everyone here has discovered the error of the doctrines through reading the Bible and yes, along the way we have found this same information posted on websites. And, the websites are suggested as an easy way to find the scriptures to read. What you don't understand is that you are taking one scripture and forgetting what precedes it. Adventist for all their preaching about others taking things "out of context" are participates in the thing that abhor in others. Your question about Rev. 14:12 has already been answered, but here is it again, in different words......You've also been quoting Matt. 7:13 a lot, but again you have not included the text before or after your quote. The text just prior to that one says, "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." prior to this verse it is reminding us not to judge others, to continue to ask things from our Father, so we may receive the good things (Holy Spirit to direct and guide), this is what the narrow road, very few continue to walk in the Spirit, they are saved but like those in 1 Cor.3 they continue to walk in carnality even though they are saved. The commands of God, in the Law and Prophets are summed up in 'do unto others as you would have them do to you' and again in 1 John 3:23, "And this is his command; to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one anotheras he commanded us." This command has to be a command of God--because it says "to believe in the name of 'his' Son, Jesus Christ. The command of God is to believe!!!! Rev. 14;12 "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God ( 1 John 3:23, commandment of God: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ and to love one another) and the faith of Jesus Christ. God will bless you with truth if you earnestly seek it!!! Lori | ||
| Susan |
Lori, great explanations! I appreciate your heartfelt and loving comments. It is extremely important to take verses in their CONTEXT! Without doing so, can lead to some major scripture twisting which ultimately leads to false doctrines. Sherry2, I'm with you and Bill. It would be great if Ken could answer the important questions first. If there is agreement on these essential doctrines of the Christian faith, then we can go on to discuss/debate the non-essentials (like sabbath or baptism etc.). Christians MUST have unity in the essentials. The non-essentials are important but should never divide or set one group apart as the elite and chosen. I think I've heard all of these comments from Hank Hanagraaf??? Anyway, I'm praying that this will be an edifying and uplifting discussion for us all. Thanks in advance Ken for your input. "My hope is built on nothing less, then Jesus' blood and righteousness" !!! Susan | ||
| Chyna |
dear ken, i was only anticipating the usual adventist argument that the early church observed Sabbath (b/c many adventist will use that point to try to support their argument). You asked why people read from non-Adventist sites to find out what Adventist believe--it's because you don't find the truth by studying the false. In order to see the errors of false doctrines you have to study the word of God so you know the truth; and when you compare other doctrines to the truth the false hood is no longer concealed. yes, lori is right, when i first started studying adventism i started with the 27 fundamentals, once i reached the egw one i knew there was something seriously wrong about the adventist faith. i agree with Bill, once you have full understanding of salvation everything else becomes clearer in Him, Chyna | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Ken, AGAIN........You are not addressing the post's directly directed to you. I agree with the other's in waiting for your responses to the post's. For those of you that are somewhat new to this site, go back to April 30, 2000 and look at the thread called "LAW OF MOSES REPLACED BY THE LAW OF JESUS". It it you will find the previous discussion with Ken. It is very interesting. You will find this "THREAD" by clicking on discussion and scrolling about 1/3 of the way down. Maryann | ||
| Billthompson |
Maryann, I just went back and read through as much as I could stand of that previous thread. It confirmed what I knew I'd find there. These endless debates convince no one of anything. I hope we will all refuse to enter long debates until we know for sure the person we are talking to is saved, trusting in Christ alone for salvation and has a firm assurance of their own salvation. Actually, I find people who are saved and/or have a firm assurance of their own salvation are not likely to enter forums like this seeking confrontational debates. They are looking for "assurance" by trying to see if their pet doctrine is invincible and this gives them confidence they are part of the "remnant" denomination. This is a pitiful substitute for what Christ really wants to do in their lives. Get on the subject of assurance of salvation. That is what they really need whether they know it now or not. A Sinner Saved By Grace, Bill Thompson | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Bill, Thank you for looking that up and seeing the point I was making. You posted: "I hope we will all refuse to enter long debates until we know for sure the person we are talking to is saved, trusting in Christ alone for salvation and has a firm assurance of their own salvation." That is true in one context! The other would be for the person "genuinely" searching. I don't think you ment what the above says? I think you were refering ONLY to people that want to argue for arguing sake. You were NOT refering to that disgrutled, drowning, confused, angry person that just found out they might have been taught a lie all their lives and simply HAVE to argue a bit to purge the lies out of their systems! Please correct me if I'm wrong! Maryann | ||
| Billthompson |
Maryann, I was primarily referring to those who want to argue for the sake of arguing, but I think it is wise to be very gospel oriented with anyone that does not seem to have assurance of their own salvation. For the second type person you mentioned, the one that is "disgrutled, drowning, confused, angry person" the gospel message is just as important. I am not saying refuse to talk to people, I am saying choose the topic wisely and talk, talk, talk. Talk about what the Gospel has done for you, how it turned your life around. Let them know Christ died for not just their past sins, but past present and future. Let them know they should trust in Christ alone for salvation and stop looking for a perfect, "remnant" denomination. Let them know you can have a firm, calm assurance of salvation, not because of anything we do but because of what Christ did. Talk to anyone and everyone who will listen, but be sure their feet are firmly planted in the gsopel before getting into peripheral issues. No, I do not always follow this advice perfectly myself. I sometimes find myself well into a discussion of EGW plagiarism, for example, with someone new. Then I stop and ask myself, "who am I talking to here? Does this person know Christ as their personal Savior?" Then I try to divert the conversation to hearing their testimony and dwelling on the gospel in all it's fullness before going on to these other areas. Perhaps the way I said it above sounds harsh. That is not what I meant to convey. I actually meant to convey a very true form of compassion. People need the Lord! I usually will say, "I'd love to talk about the sabbath, EGW, state of the dead, etc. but since we don't know each other very well yet let's take a moment to get to know eah other first." Then I may share my testimony first and then ask to hear their's. If they seem to lack assurance of their own salvation, I honestly feel it is better to park there on that subject for awhile before moving on to these other areas. If we only convince them that "Yes, you were part of a very faulty denomination" but give them no gospel message to go with that (and before that in my opinion) then we have done them a great disservice and may simply turn them away from anything Christian. I am still learning every day and most of what I learn I learn by doing it the wrong way first. I used to enter long, pointless debates and helped no one in the process, not the other person and certainly not myself. It was depressing and took my own focus off the "main thing". Simply A Sinner Saved By Grace, Bill Thompson | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Bill, I'm sure glad I made that post to you as you put down some very important guidelines and principles! Particularly: "Talk to anyone and everyone who will listen, but be sure their feet are firmly planted in the gospel before getting into peripheral issues." That is really hard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! to stay with the gospel when, in our case there are soooooooooooooooo many peripheral issues. And those issues are hammered over your head so often you have as many dents as an over sized golf ball. The inside of my truck looks like when Bugs Bunny and Yosemite Sam are blowing each other up with dynamite in their house when my Mom and I travel!;-(( She claims to stand firmly on the 3 issues you suggested!!!!!!! Yet there's the big BUT! We have all delt with that! I'm not experienced enough to deal with "yes but's" (yebit's) Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr About the only way I can keep from getting sucked into those peripheral issues is to wind about 1/2 a roll of duct tape over my mouth;-))!!! After my hell on earth is over and I'm moved and settled in, I am REALLY looking forward to studying to understand and DEFEND my faith. I, like all of you, have drowning SDA friends that need to have questions put in their un-inqiring minds to stew for a while. When the stewing process is completed, I WANT to be equiped!!! Thank you for your post.......Maryann | ||
| Billthompson |
Maryann, Yeh, I guess it is hard to say "Since we don't know each other very well..." to your Mom! Try this on for size. "Mom, do we agree there is no church which is perfect?" Hopefully she says, "Yes". Then say, "If you had to choose between a church that taught the correct plan of salvation (gospel) but was wrong about XYZ which are nonsalvation issues, and another curch which is right about XYZ but is wrong about how to be saved (gospel). Again now, Mom, we both agree no church is perfect. Which one do I support with my time and money?" Hopefully she says, "Support the one that's right about how to be saved." If she's a zealous SDA she might say now just which doctrines are you talking about when you say "XYZ, nonsalvation issues, surely you are not talking about the SABBATH (the center of SDA theology and idenity)?!" Then you have to turn back to the gospel direction and say, "Mom, is the Sabbath a salvation issue?" This is a subtle way to discuss their favorite doctrine with an emphasis on the gospel. If they ever see they are not saved by sabbath-keeping you have come a long way. If she'll admit it is not a salvation issue then say you say "good we agree, it is one of those XYZ doctrines. Now why would anyone stay in a church that seems to be right about XYZ but is wrong about how to be saved?" This is my idea of a gospel oriented family discussion. Let me know if it works and I'll try it on my own family :) Actually, I have started out this way but got overwhelmed and distracted with all their "BUT..." arguments and went away discouraged. It is like my friend and former SDA Jr. Academy classmate Patti has said on this forum before, it is the "Big But syndrome". I know where you're coming from, been there and done that. Family is the hardest for me. In Christ, Bill Thompson | ||
| Breezy |
Ken, Please read this! To all others above: Do you hear what you are saying? I remember someone on here giving a quote from Ellen White that supposedly she said not to pray for someone unless he was current in tithes and in good standing with the church. You guys were all over that. But now I hear in the above thread that you all will not dialogue with Ken unless you know he is saved. How blatantly arrogant. Not only are you doing the same thing you accused Ellen of doing, but you have the audacity to assume you have the spiritual discernment to decide whether or not someone is saved. Only God knows that and we have no right to judge. How many at the Second Coming will have had the "assurance" that they are saved, and then find out that they were wrong? Ken made some very good points above, and all you all are doing is dodging them. Ken, give up. You cannot prosletyse the people on this forum. If anyone were to admit that you are right on any point here, they would have there world shatter all over again. People who follow this mind-set are people who were uncomfortable with the truth of the Bible as presented by the Adventist church and actively looking for ways to escape what they perceived as bondage. For someone truly converted the yoke of Christ is easy and light. When it seems heavy that is when we should pray for help, not go looking deceiving fordoctrines. Jesus said that at the end those who do not love the truth would look for a way to escape it, and that He would allow them to believe a lie. If someone believes a lie, can you change their mind? Can you save them by debating with them? NO! All you can do for people that you believe have been misled is pray for them. Many people who have left the fold, will towards the end come back. We can intercede for them spiritually, but we cannot change their minds. Nor is it christian to try to do so by debate. The Holy Spirit is far more effective than we could ever be. If the Holy Spirit calls to them and they ignore it or turn away, then at least we know we did all that we could. These people have all the facts, they know all they arguments, what they do with it is their choice. I love all of these people on this forum, and continuously pray that the Lord will do His will in their lives. That is all I can do and I have learned to accept that. There are many other forums with like minded people that would serve you better, I am sure I can help you find them. My e-mail is hvnlybrz@netscape.net God Bless all in this forum in their journey to the Land of Milk and Honey. Wendy | ||
| Billthompson |
Wendy, Calm down. I started this idea of asking for Ken's testimony and was NOT suggesting we not talk to him but rather put first things first. I'd like to talk to him alot. I just want to put the Gospel first and everything else second. I think it is productive for two professing Christians to discuss (not debate) peripheral issues. I simply insist we agree on the basics before we go on to nonsalvation issues. EGW was stressing allegence to the denomination with the tithe thing. I am trying to put Christ first with my "gospel thing". I agree this is a bad place for a SDA to try to convert people to SDAism. Was that Ken's intent? Surely that has not been your intent, Wendy. I have really enjoyed talking to you. I am also not trying to judge a person as to their salvation. I want to know what they think of themselves where salvation is concerned, are they secure or insecure. That is for them to answer not me. Wendy, do we agree that salvation is more important than and independant of sabbath-keeping? Bill Thompson | ||
| Chyna |
bill, you are surely right because whenever i consider talking about facets of my beliefs it's always about discussing them and sharing what you believe with other people rather than debating them. it's the spirit of the discusion that makes more of an impact than the words, the tone, the phrasing. once one side feels defensive there isn't any use in talking any longer until a mutual love and respect is felt between the two parties (or more). in Him Chyna | ||
| Billthompson |
Wendy, As for Ken's view of the Sabbath, you are right we all know these arguments, some of us used to make the same agruments, ourselves. We've seen it from both sides. I am not sure what Ken thought he could accomplish here. He made the same points a few months ago here and to no avail. What we have still yet to hear from Ken is his testimony and I'd really like to hear it. His agruments for the Sabbath are strong and heart felt but fail to move me. If he'd make as strong a case for Christ perhaps my heart would be moved to listen to other things he wishes to discuss. Bill Thompson | ||
| Chyna |
*g* so i did have bill in mind when I was talking to my ex about his personal testimony. at one point we had gotten far on a tangent of a nonsalvation issue, and I was like, "we're off track!" and he said, "why? do we have to have a set agenda?" and inside my mind i was like: yes, i'm trying to stick to the salvation stuff and not all that other stuff that we have exhaustively discussed without any progress at all | ||
| Billthompson |
Chyna, It's okay if he sets the agenda, he just does not think you should be able to do the same. You can certainly set the agenda for your own life. An important "seed" was planted when you insisted on the gospel coming first. Let's pray for rain! It is interesting to run the gospel up the "flag pole" and see who salutes (or sings Amazing Grace or shouts "Thank you Lord") and who runs away. Just A Weary Sinner Saved By Grace Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Ken |
Hi Wendy: Thanks for your christian way & words I really appreciate them. I'm on this form to communicate with others that believe, or had believed in the Bible. Alot that I read here has absolutly zero to do with the Bible that i'm familiar with. And then when I poke a sore spot it seems everyone scatters and hides under some teaching or writings that are not in the Bible. I must confess that reading most of Chyna's post have amused me the most, because I have a very dear friend that's also a Baptist. Unfortunatly it sounds like maybe the Bible is dodged regularly in favor of early christian written history, (or should I say miss-story)? Chyna is it true that Baptists don't believe in a literal 6 days for creation favoring a 1,000 years for each day? If you could please educate me so I can more knowledgly talk to him. He too gleaned most of his knowledge of what SDA's believe from sites such as this. He learned things like we don't believe in the Trilogy, and that Ellen White is to be held up higher than God and much more misinformation. We are getting ready to study life after death and one of the Baptist beliefs is that "The rich man and Lazarus" is literal and not the parable that it is. I'm eagerly awaiting some of your feedback. Ken | ||
| Billthompson |
Ken, Still waiting for that testimony, what about Christ. Get passionate about Him for me. Bill Thompson | ||
| Breezy |
Hi Bill, Salvation is most important and first. Jesus will determine what is important after that. I don't worry if the Sabbath is required or not. I just love any excuse to spend a whole day with my Lord without anyone being able to infringe on our time. The Sabbath does not save me, it refreshes me. Someone once said that we should start preparing for the Sabbath on Sunday. The way I interpret that is that we should treat every day as a day of worship for our Lord and saviour. The Sabbath is just the crowning glory of the week. I know that I am saved, and that is completely independant of the Sabbath. I know that it is not that way for alot of Sabbath keepers. But, I also know that it is that way for alot more Sabbath keepers than you and others credit for. I like talking to you to Bill. I just will not enter into dialogue that will get competitive. And you silly goose, quit telling me to calm down. :) You know I'm perfectly calm. I know you were speaking figuratively anyway. Take care. Wendy |
