| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker |
Hi, Steve! I'm sure Grace Ambassador will have a well-thought-out response to your question; I'm looking forward to it also! But I just want to say this: I have a hard time seeing anything we do as being "means of grace" if grace means Jesus' saving grace. We receive that "once for all" when we accept him. I do, however, see prayeróand other Christian practicesóas things we do as part of our Spirit-led life in Christ. They are outgrowths of the Spirit's prompting in us, and they are part of our growing personal relationship with Jesus. I think of it not so much as God bestowing grace upon me when I pray as God revealing himself to me as I seek to know him. I really do not see prayeróor any other practiceóas a means of grace. But I know that my recognition of the Holy Spirit's promptings to me grows clearer as I learn to pray. My gift of grace from Him is accomplished already. My relationship with himóamazingly!ócontinues to become more personal and confident and vulnerable. I really enjoy your posts, Steve! Rejoicing in grace and growing in Jesus, Colleen | ||
| Graceambassador |
Hi Steve And Colleen: I echo Colleen, een, een, words on this one! Prayer as a conversation w/God in the O.T. were recoerds very well kept. I will talk more about that later. People even came to "collect" later. This became one of the errors of the Charismatic movement with the exageration of "naming and claiming". But it is in the Bible. Mainly, I believe in the Sovereignty of God, as most of you. So I believe that prayer is the prompting of the Holy Spirit for us to walk towards the "spirritual blessings in the heavenly places" that nave been given to us ALREADY in full. Ephesians 6 tells us that the "principalities and powers" also dwell in this heavenlies. And that God will maniefest His manyfold wisdom by the Ek-klesia to the same "principalities and powers" in heavenly places. The same realm. They're there as well! So, prayer is "my recognition of the Holy Spirit promptings" to wage the battle described in Ephesians 6, and march toward that which is already mine! And yes, prayer is Spiritual warfare as well. Again, this is a good thread. Remember that Paul says "all prayer and suppliations". They are two different words in the Greek. So, this is worthy studying as well. Grace Ambassador/Uncle Milt | ||
| Steve |
Hi All, I almost couldn't sleep last night. And out of all those hours of ruminating, here's what I currently understand about the New Covenant of Grace. The New Covenant is an agreement between God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ. It is not a covenant in which we play an active part. We are passive participants (observers?). And since Jesus fulfilled His part perfectly, it is therefore completely unconditional in regards to me. The New Covenant is the grace (unmerited favor) of God extended to us. Unconditionally. And His grace includes love and forgiveness. Even before I ever thought of asking for it. For me this seems to mean that regardless of the sins I commit, regardless of the keeping of a day or not, regardless of the foods or beverages I eat or don't eat, regardless of when Jesus returns, I stand completely and perfectly sinless in the presence of Almighty God through the blood of Jesus Christ. Now, I'm going to sound like a hyper-Calvinist for just a moment. It would appear that this covenant also stands regardless of whether I believe or not. (Maybe this isn't hyper-Calvinism, but I still have trouble distinguishing the "regular" from the "hyper.") I believe because I have been saved, not TO BE saved. Of course, I will have a different attitude about sin than I previuosly had (I'm horrified by it, rather than complacent about it.) But even if I were to live a perfect life, absolutely sinless, I was born in a sinful state, and need the blood of Christ to redeem me. After billions (maybe trillions) of neuronal firings in my brain during the night, that was all my mind was able to come up with this morning. For all Bill Twisse and Grace Ambassador have written, I apologize if this seems simplistic. But for me it must make absolute sense to my children if it's going to make sense to me. And I think that my children can understand this. God Bless, Steve | ||
| Graceambassador |
Hi Steve: I would not call us "observers" but "beneficiaries"! Now, I'm going to sound like a hyper-Calvinist for just a moment. It would appear that this covenant also stands regardless of whether I believe or not. (Maybe this isn't hyper-Calvinism, but I still have trouble distinguishing the "regular" from the "hyper.") I believe because I have been saved, not TO BE saved. Well... you're not hyper. The belief is given to you because of Grace. Studying the N.T. there are two types of "believing" in the there: believe for a temporal situation (remove mountains for example) believe UNTO Salvation. This is given by God, is the work of the Holy Spirit upon the elect. I will not elaborate because this has been fully discussed in the PREDESTINATION discussion of this forum. Let me advertise my site again and check ANSWERS HTML and check what I say about "believing". I hope my site in on the air. The server was undergoing maintenance. You are not, and will never be simplistic. And remember I AM LEARNING WITH YOU AND WE'RE LEARNING WITH EACH OTHER EVERY DAY. IT IS THE WAY THE HOLY SPIRIT BLESSES WITH THIS THING CALLED "FELLWOSHIP". So, do not worry about being simplistic or whatever! Grace Ambassador/Uncle Milt | ||
| Graceambassador |
Steve: It is me again!!! I forgot to mention that the "belief" for temporal things is something that you can "excercise", grow in, improve, and is the type of faith that can be increased. The other is a gift we receive from God unto Salvation. We could not "get" this type of faith because it is not our faith but is the "faith of the Son of God" (Galatians 2:16-21) imparted to us, again, by the Holy Spirit UNTO SALVATION. I believe that Ephesians 2:8 "that is not of yourselves, but a GIFT OF GOD", refers to both faith and Grace mentioned just before. There are a few Greek scholars that agree with me on that. Those who do not agree are GEEK schollars! Grace Ambassador/Uncle Milt | ||
| Colleentinker |
Steveóthat's it! I do agree with Uncle Milt's once correction: I see us as beneficiaries rather than observers. The understanding that the New Covenant was made between God and Jesus instead of God and man was an epiphany for me when I first heard it. We had attended the San Diego Forum meeting to hear our (then-considered) infamous cousin Dale Ratzlaff speak. The date was May, 1996. I will never forget his showing diagrams representing the covenants and saying that God and Jesus made the New Covenant. It was like a bolt of lightning. That understanding tore a large hole in the Adventist veil that still covered my heart (although I didn't know I had a veil then!). One month later when Dale sent us his books, unannounced, we were ready to read them. The New Covenant was finally beginning to make sense! You're daily in my prayers, Steve. Colleen | ||
| Steve |
Thanks Uncle Milt & Colleen, I agree, Colleen. This idea of the Father making the covenant with His Son is revolutionary to me. I know I've heard it before, but it's only now taking hold in my mind (and hopefully my heart.) This whole understanding also makes the fact that God chose me so incredible. Although I don't believe that there isn't anyone God hasn't chosen (I still have to understand that aspect of the "elect") for me to understand that makes His love for me infinitely greater than the way it was when I had just chosen Him. For Him to chose me, is just mind boggling! My whole belief system is being shattered, and replaced with something far superior. God Bless, Steve | ||
| Sherry2 |
Steve, that is how it has been for me too. And Colleen, your description of the "hole in the Adventist veil" is exactly how I felt. I couldn't believe it. It was like instant joy - could this be true.? Hold it, let me read that again! It was just awesome. To me, it seems like all these things are continuing steps away from the Catholic church which seems to be centered in Old Covenant ways, with the system of priests, and formally the indulgences, etc. to make "sacrifice" for sin basically, and other things. I don't know. Could be wrong there. But this has been a glorious step forward. My favorite hymn that I can sing with honesty and exuberance now is "Blessed Assurance, Jesus is Mine!" Thank you all for your shares :)...Sherry | ||
| Billtwisse |
Covenant, study VIII 8. The New Covenant has no sacred times (part 1) Leviticus 23 (entire passage) But now after ye have known God, or rather are known by God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements unto which ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days and months and times and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain. (Galatians 4:9-11) "And behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth. And ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spoke concerning you: all have come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof." (Joshua 23:14) "O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter?" saith the LORD. "Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in Mine hand, O house of Israel. At the instant I shall speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up and to pull down and to destroy it, if that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at the instant I shall speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it do evil in My sight, that it obey not My voice, then I will repent of the good wherewith I said I would benefit them. Now therefore go to speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, `Thus saith the LORD: Behold, I frame evil against you and devise a device against you. Return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.'" And they said, "There is no hope; but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart." Therefore thus saith the LORD: "Ask ye now among the heathen: Who hath heard such things? The virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing." Therefore deliver up their children to the famine, and pour out their blood by the force of the sword; and let their wives be bereaved of their children and be widows; and let their men be put to death; let their young men be slain by the sword in battle. Let a cry be heard from their houses, when Thou shalt bring a troop suddenly upon them; for they have dug a pit to take me, and hid snares for my feet. Yet, LORD, Thou knowest all their counsel against me to slay me; forgive not their iniquity, neither blot out their sin from Thy sight, but let them be overthrown before Thee; deal thus with them in the time of Thine anger. (Jeremiah 18:6-13, 22-23) At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth; and I have come to show thee, for thou art greatly beloved. Therefore understand the matter, and heed the vision: "Seventy weeks are determined concerning thy people and concerning thy holy city to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy." (Daniel 9:23-24) For all the promises of God in Him are "yea"; and in Him "amen" unto the glory of God by us. (2 Corinthians 1:20) "Remember ye the Law of Moses, My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD." (Malachi 4:1-6) Verily I say unto you, among them that are born of women, there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist; notwithstanding, he that is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he. And from the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, who was to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. (Matthew 11:11-15) "Think not that I am come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law until all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18) "The Law and the Prophets were until John. Since that time the Kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than one tittle of the law to fail" (Luke 16:16-17) Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth in nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all. But he is under tutors and governors until the time appointed by the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. (Galatians 4:1-5) "And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch and find them so, blessed are those servants. And this know, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not have suffered his house to be broken into. Be ye therefore ready also, for the Son of Man cometh at an hour when ye think not." (Luke 12:38-40) After a long time the lord of those servants came and reckoned with them. (Matthew 25:19) He who testifieth these things saith, "Surely I come quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. (Revelation 22:20-21) We are about to ascend to the peak of Grace Mountain (Isa. 25:6-10) in the last 3 studies of this series. Why pause at this glorious moment to study the issue of sacred times? Well, it is a crucial step in understanding the covenants. We have been looking at all of the things that the New Covenant is 'not'. There are many elements of the law-covenant that people will fight like dogs to bring into the grace-covenant. No doubt there are other perversions that this series will fail to expose. But we still have three big-hitters known that need to strike out. When I refer to 'sacred times' in this study, I mean proposed times of inherent or mysterious significance in the history between the two advents of Christ. There is no question that the Bible refers to moments in history that have special significance above others. The first advent of Christ into the world fulfilled all of Old Testament prophecy (see Dan. 9:24 and 2 Cor. 1:20 above). That was surely a time of great prominence. The final eschaton and the events surrounding it will also be a special time. What I am disturbed about is the speculative obsession with events in the current historical process deemed to have special prophetic significance. There are two ways in which mankind has attempted to bring sacred times into the New Covenant: 1. The imposition of special days or seasons by 'church authority'. 2. The imposition of false systems of prophetic interpretation. In reality, both of these practices are going back to the Old Covenant. The first is a return to the principle of required feasts in order to obtain holiness. This is a method of performing works in order to obtain blessing from God. The second is a denial of the fulfillment of the Old Testament in Christ. It returns to the forward-looking mentality of the old era. The major focus of this study will be on the second of these two distortions of the gospel. It is the one that is the worst 'offender' in our day. However, let us briefly consider the first of these errors. The Sabbath (whether 7th or 1st day) is not the only sacred time of the former covenant that men have attempted to impose upon Christians. A number of sects have tried to restore many of the other feast days. This has not been limited to cultic groups, either. I have heard a certain pastor preach many times that we ought to be observing the Day of Atonement. How should this be practiced? Well, you are supposed to write down all the sins of the past year that you can think of. It is best to do this in some sort of code so that if someone ever finds the 'list' they will not know what it is. Then you attach the list of sins to a helium balloon and release it in ceremonial fashion. Wow, we can see our sins being removed from us in that fading balloon--just like the people in former times watched the scapegoat being led away! I won't indulge people who want to do this by saying it is harmless. If our sins were removed from us once-for-all-time in Christ, why do we need a new crutch to 'visualize' that reality? It seems to me that an insistence on this practice actually betrays a level of unbelief. The gospel ends the law-covenant of imperfect consciousness of forgiveness of sin--period! I don't want teachers saying that we need to observe any day, month, season, or year from that era. These practices will harm us spiritually--by removing our meditation from the finished work of Christ and directing it toward pale imitations. What about the 'church calendar'? Isn't this a harmless attempt to make the reality of New Testament events come to life? No, it isn't. I enjoy the Christmas and Easter seasons as much as anyone. God has often blessed the teaching of his Word at these times. But the blessings come in spite of the foolish inventions of men, not because of them. The sacred calendar was established as one of many tests of submission to ecclesiastical authority. It was modeled after the Jewish calendar of sacred days. When the ekklesia and koinonia of the New Testament were replaced with the one-bishop rule, clergy/laity distinction, and sacred house; it was essential to also establish a new system of holy days. The new 'priesthood' would not have been complete without these observances. All of the new 'Christian laws' were motivated by a spirit of dominion and control over the minds of Christians. Without them the new hierarchy of priestly rule would not have survived. Whenever humans claim to have authority to impose a system of beliefs or practices not mandated by Christ or the apostles, we should opt out in jealousy for the gospel. There were no annual festivals in the congregations established by Paul. Instead of an annual remembrance of Christ's resurrection, the agape festival on every first day of the week was a celebration of the resurrection. This does not mean that the resurrection day was considered inherently sacred. It was simply the day chosen for gathering together in a special way (Acts 20:7). No doubt the early Christian gatherings and 'breaking of bread' also took place on other days. We will now consider the issue of sacred times as it relates to prophetic interpretation. It is extremely difficult to confine a study of prophecy to a brief discussion of the error of bringing sacred times into the New Covenant. Bible prophecy is a subject that cannot be adequately covered in a short summary. The following exposition will only scratch the surface on this critical matter. Leviticus 23 describes the eight festivals that comprise the 'sacred times' of the Lord. I will use this passage of scripture as a catalyst to attempt a reasonable and Spirit-filled meditation upon God's purposes in history. All of the Old Testament is forward-looking. The final day of the Lord is the subject of all prophecy before Christ. Although there is a focus upon the immediate fulfillment of certain predictions, in a variety of circumstances, the broader emphasis is concentrated on the final day of God's eschatological salvation. It is almost impossible to distinguish between the advents of Christ when reading the Old Testament. God's last-day action is comprehended as a single event. However, with the greater light of the New Testament shining upon us, we can sort out the real meaning of the prophecies of former times. The day of the Lord is not a single event occurring at one point in time. It was inaugurated at Christ's first advent and will be consummated at his final advent. The division of all men and women according to the gospel takes place in the interim. So the end of the world comes in three dimensions: Passion, Pentecost, and Parousia. Note this point very carefully: Jesus did not come into the world to fulfill only the law. He came just as importantly to fulfill the prophets. The dispensational system of prophetic interpretation loves to emphasize the fulfillment of law in Christ. Hallelujah! However, it is bankrupt on the matter of fulfillment of the prophets in Christ. In the most popular system of prophetic interpretation today, the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy is viewed as almost completely future. Dispensationalists ignore the fulfillment of prophecy in Christ as surely as Reformed theologians ignore the fulfillment of law in Christ. The sin of J.N. Darby and all of his followers is on the same level as the sin of 1st or 7th day sabbatarians. I will pause for a moment to inject a crucial observation. It is easy for some of us to make fun of the dispensational approach to interpreting the Bible. However, in the past 10 or 20 years, a huge number of opposite interpretations have become prominent. Many of these are as bad or worse than the views of Darby and his unknown predecessors: Lacunza, Irving, and MacDonald. The denomination where I retain membership (PCA) has changed from being mostly premillenial to a strange and new postmillenial theology called 'reconstructionism'--in the last 13 years. The new theology harmonizes with evangelical triumphalism--which is considered sacrosanct. So man has changed God's timetable of the future (I'm speaking foolishly, as Paul did)! The arrogance of this metamorphosis is something that I cannot logically fathom. It is amazing and incomprehensible! The political landscape has motivated individuals to completely abandon former convictions (were they correct?) and adopt totally new convictions. Suddenly God's future is completely rewritten by man! The purpose is to advance a sick and destructive theology of dominion. The notion behind this theory is that Christians are destined to convert the majority of the world through evangelical and governmental force. Nothing could be further from the truth as it is in Jesus. His kingdom is not of this world, period! Another strange development in recent years is the popular resurgence of 70 A. D. eschatology, sometimes dubbed Preterism. It is really pure and simple Gnosticism. This is the same position as that of Hymenaeus, Philetus, and Alexander the coppersmith--who were responsible for the first great apostasy in Christendom (read 1 and 2 Timothy). The teaching proposes that the final resurrection is 'spiritual' and has already taken place (in 70 A.D). There is no ultimate, cosmic destruction of sin, death, and the devil. Be on guard against smooth words and fine-sounding interpretation! It is inevitable that most professed Christians will be confronted by this innovative and humanly convincing system of prophetic interpretation in the next 10-20 years. OK, the 'interlude' is over. What is the meaning of the 8 feasts (sacred times)? The first is the Sabbath. We have considered this festival in the first study of the covenant series. The Sabbath pointed forward to the gospel and our final rest in Christ as a result of believing (Hebrews 4). It is finished in Christ's salvation obtained at the cross, so the day has no claim on us today--period. For the most comprehensive and excellent treatment of the Sabbath issue in print, see "Sabbath in Crisis" by Dale Ratzlaff. I personally wish that skepticism would prevail in considering the treatment of two subjects discussed in his book: water baptism and Charles Finney. However, on the matter of the Sabbath issue it cannot be surpassed. Virtually all of Christian interpreters agree on the fulfillment of the Passover, unleavened bread, and wave sheaf festivals. These were consummated in Jesus Christ and the events surrounding his first coming. The events portrayed in the 3 spring festivals were fulfilled in the Passion of Christ--not only with regards to meaning, but also with regards to the time. Jesus was crucified at Passover. The days of unleavened bread followed with the disappointment experienced by the disciples. The wave-sheaf festival was fulfilled at the resurrection of Christ (the morrow after the Sabbath). With the atoning death and resurrection of our Lord, the redemption of a lost world was completed. Pentecost was fulfilled at the outpouring of the Spirit recorded in Acts and has continued ever since. The least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John the Baptist. He did not receive the Pentecostal baptism of the Holy Spirit that all believers since the resurrection experience. We must remember, too, that there is a dark side to Pentecost: the sin against the Holy Ghost. As the gospel goes forth to the whole world, mankind is divided into two separate groups. Believers in Christ receive the promised Holy Spirit (in actual time, even before believing--since no one can acknowledge Jesus as Lord except by the Holy Spirit). Unbelievers commit the sin against the Holy Spirit--which is eternal and will result in eternal judgment (Heb. 6:2). The reality of Pentecost is what Jesus described as the 'mystery' of the kingdom of God. It is the gospel. It does not reach full fruition in a single moment of time, rather, it is a principle that leavens the world over a 'long time.' There is no promise of an early final advent of Christ in the New Testament. Men often confuse the various ways in which Jesus 'comes' to man. Suffice it to say that there are many comings of Christ. He came in Bethlehem. He came to his Father after the resurrection. He came to his disciples then also: both in person and even more intimately in the outpouring of the Spirit. He came in judgment upon the nation of Israel (the 'end of the age' in Matthew 24). He comes in redemption to all believers on the day of their departure from this world (John 14:3). He comes in judgment to all unbelievers on the day of their death. Finally, he will come in great power and glory at the cosmic end of the age to reconcile all things to God. We must occupy the present time with devotion to Christ and his gospel and ignore all speculative interpretation of our age. This is what men should have done in all previous centuries. In the history of Christendom, there has been a continuous stream of wild-eyed speculation about the end. It started in the days of the Thessalonians. The Montanists revived it well in the second and third centuries. The year-day principle was used as a basis of false prediction for many centuries after that. It was finally exhausted in the last century and will never be resurrected again. However, the restoration of the Jewish State in 1948 is the baseline of a whole new generation of confident end-time predictions. Looking back to 'millennial milestones,' 1000 and 2000 A. D. were also major disappointments for those who love prophetic fables. Those of us who work in the software industry suffered a lot of grief from the Y2K lie. We knew that it was a lie from the beginning (designed to bolster the fortunes of politicians, preachers, and renegade analysts), but who would believe us? Picture yourself building a home that you have wanted all your life and planned immaculately. A thief comes along and gets away with your building materials and tools. Then he sells them back to you through a middleman at a major price increase. Once the house is finished, the thief has the audacity to claim that he built the house himself! That is the reality of what happened with the ridiculous and absurd Y2K lie. Politicians and preachers triumphantly proclaimed: "If we hadn't warned the world of this coming disaster, it would have gone to hell. We saved the day." The reality is that their false predictions made a lot of people very miserable. The Y2K logic problem in computer programs was a bug with a straightforward and reasonable solution (like any other software bug). But it was proclaimed as the beginning of the end of the world. At a minimum, it was surely going to bring about God's wrath upon an impenitent nation that was ripe for judgment! As a result of this nonsense, incompetent companies promising great solutions were hired to fix the phantom 'problem.' If the truth were to be known, some of the 'prophets of doom' probably had a financial stake in the companies promising great solutions at the right price. These swindlers wrecked huge quantities of good software that was mostly solvent before they got hold of it. The aftermath: many months of tireless hours had to be spent in recovery. We were not scrambling to fix Y2K bugs until the last minute. We were scrambling to fix the damage done by pretenders. Billions of dollars worldwide were completely wasted on worthless 'solutions.' Yet the geniuses who 'alerted' us to the problem and caused the demolition of good software claimed that they were responsible for fixing it! They averted world disaster! The example I cite is one from my own experience. No doubt there are many other examples that would illustrate the same point with equal force. I don't blame some of you who honestly believed this thing: you were acting on the information that you had which seemed logical. The only reason I mention the above event (something I'm familiar with) is to illustrate how far people will go in defending apocalyptic fables. Humans with a certain bias toward the spectacular love a great tale! It has been so ever since Eve believed the original lie of Satan. Some people with the wrong motives really get off on this stuff. Most of us have often been asked this question: how would your life change if you knew that Jesus was coming today? I would like to ask a very different question. How would your life change if you knew that Jesus wasn't coming for a long time? How would you occupy the time left in the days allotted to you by God? The second question is even more important than the first. We have looked at the first two dimensions of the end of the world: Passion (foretold in the Passover, unleavened bread, and wave sheaf) and Pentecost. What about the last three sacred times: Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles? Interpreters throughout the Christian age have understood that these festivals point to the final reconciliation of all things: at the Parousia of Jesus Christ. Some even point to the fact that the last 3 feasts occur at an entirely different season of the year (autumn) than the first 4 do (spring). That point has caused a lot of speculative interpretation of prophecy; including the systems of British Adventism, American Adventism, and Dispensationalism. But all of the fanciful positions have one thing in common. They place the Trumpets and Day of Atonement before the final advent of Christ! They also interpret the Feast of Tabernacles as a millennium before the last judgment instead of the final redeemed state of those who are in Christ. It goes like this: British Adventism (Irvingism): Trumpets: the pre-Trib rapture of the sinless Church (Philadelphia); falsely prophesied to happen around 1867, the 1335th day (year) of Daniel 12:12 which was believed to occur 75 years after the end of the papal reign in 1792 (the 1260 days or years). Atonement: the purgation of the imperfect Church (Laodicea) & the great tribulation of the wicked in the 7-year period after the rapture. In Irvingism, the restoration of the Jewish state was not prophesied to take place until the millennium. Tabernacles: the millennium of Christ's reign (with his church) from Jerusalem following the Second Coming. American Adventism (derived by reinterpreting Irvingism): Trumpets: the Advent awakening call to judgment ('lift up the trumpet and loud let it ring') before 1844. Atonement: the pre-Advent investigative judgment in heaven following 1844, removing all but the sinless from the Church. Christ makes the final atonement for perfected saints only. Tabernacles: the millennium of the saints in heaven (the second 'investigative' judgment) after Christ comes. Dispensationalism (invented by J.N. Darby, derived by reinterpreting Irvingism, which he was very familiar with): Trumpets: the pre-Trib rapture of the entire Church. Sinlessness is not required, only faith. Atonement: after the rapture, the purgation of unbelieving & unrepentant Israel & the final tribulation of the wicked in the last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week. Tabernacles: the millennium of saints, Jews, believing & unbelieving nations on earth after Christ comes. What is the NT alternative to these interpretations? The book of Revelation uses the imagery of the autumn feasts to describe the final reconciliation of all things. The New Testament also emphasizes that the last 'day' (future) is already unfolding in the last 'days' (present). Final judgment, however, is contained in the last 3 festivals that follow each other 'quickly'--as they do in the Jewish calendar: Trumpets: the final Advent of Christ contained in the seventh trumpet (Rev. 11:15-19, 14:14-16, 19:11-14). Atonement: the final judgment upon all wicked persons and deeds (Rev. 14:17-20, 16:17-21, 19:15-21, 20:11-15). Tabernacles: the eternal and blessed state of the redeemed in the New Earth (Rev. 7:9-17 uses the language of this feast, also Rev. 21 & 22) There are some historical precursors to the above feasts. For example, there are trumpets of judgment and deliverance in Revelation prior to the last trumpet. The Feast of Tabernacles was celebrated in a preliminary sense on Palm Sunday. The final banquet of God (portrayed in the Tabernacles feast) is celebrated in an inaugural sense in the Lord's Supper. It is crucial to note that the last judgment is a Day of Atonement only for the wicked. The ungodly have no mediator and must therefore atone for their sins. The Day of Atonement for the righteous has already been fulfilled in the Passion of Christ. They will be exempt from having to suffer for their sins in the judgment. See Hebrews 8-10, Rom. 3:24-26, and all of the New Testament references to the suffering & death of Christ for his people. The Day of Atonement involved not one but two goats bearing iniquity. One was slain in suffering and the other was kept alive and led away into the wilderness. Judging from the rest of scripture and the light of the New Testament, these goats portray the twin hells to be experienced by the unrighteous. The Lord's goat portrays the curse of the law (Gal. 3:13) and the goat of Azazel portrays the curse of the gospel (Heb. 10:28-31). Christ has borne away both of these judgments for his people. He has borne away the curse of the law by actually experiencing it: in place of those who deserve it. In suffering the curse of the law, Jesus has also borne away the curse of the gospel on behalf of his people. This is not because Christ experienced final, eternal & conscious rejection from God in our place. If so he would now be in hell. Only the finally impenitent will actually suffer that curse. Those believing in him will never reject the gospel eternally, so a nonexistent sin needs no substitutionary atonement. However, in dying for our sins, Jesus purchased for us the Advent of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit creates faith in the gospel, thus making a denial of Christ and final rejection of God impossible. Moving back to the present time, where are we in relation to all of the final events of history? What can we expect to happen the days ahead? (Continued) Still to come: 8. The New Covenant has no sacred times, part 2 9. The New Covenant has no works to gain blessing. 10. The New Covenant has no deserters. Conclusion: The New Wine of the Gospel. --Twisse | ||
| Billtwisse |
ALL: The second part (shorter) of this study will be posted in a couple of days, the Lord willing. I can't believe it! I looked at the date when I last posted comments and it was nine days ago! I haven't been on since then due to work & family issues. Plus I was determined to finish something new to post before interacting anymore on other things. Brother Milt: Thanks for all of your continued kindness and confidence! The fact that we both keep getting similar ideas without first consulting one another is definitely a sign of the Lord's working. What you had to say about 'new denominations' has been my exact thinking for years. I wrote a long paper about 5 years ago on ecclesiology that developed this idea very thoroughly. Did I ever send you that paper? I don't think I did. It has surfaced in many places, sometimes without my name on it (both the whole thing and fragments). Joni: On the issue of the 'carrot', the meaning of Mt. 28:19 is obscure. It does refer to the teaching of obedience to Christ's commands but does not refer to the mystery of grace given to Paul. Milt is right in saying that the fullness of Grace was the message that Christ could not reveal to the eleven, prior to the coming of the Holy Spirit. Of course, grace was present in all of the scriptures and teaching before Paul but only in seed form--not the fully grown tree. If you compare the parallel passages: Mk. 16:15-18 (authenticity is debated): The 'baptism' in this passage is Holy Spirit baptism (the real NT baptism), not the water. If it really means the water the passage is spurious because it would contradict the rest of the New Testament. Lk. 24:45-49: Only repentance and forgiveness are mentioned in this account, not baptism. Jn. 20:21-23: No water baptism here but forgiveness is tied to acceptance of the message of the apostles. The apostles were given a unique ministry of proclaiming men to be saved or lost, respective to belief in the gospel or unrepentance. My personal belief is that Mt. 28:19 refers to 3 separate baptisms: a baptism of repentance toward God the Father (like John's), a baptism of water in the name of Jesus Christ (like in Acts), and a baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is true that man cannot forgive sin or confer the Holy Spirit, but the apostles were given a unique ministry to identify who had received these things & actually confirm it by the laying on of hands. Their message baptized with the Holy Spirit because the Spirit filled people in conjunction with it. It is important to emphasize that the purpose of Holy Spirit baptism is not to bring glory to the Spirit but to Jesus Christ. The Spirit comes in fullness to unite believers to the Son (& also, therefore, to the Father). Paul came to understand in the revelation of Grace that the entire Trinity is comprehended in H.S. baptism and therefore it is the only baptism 'unto salvation.' Steve: I agree with you about 'means.' I don't use the expression 'means of grace' except to refer to the Word of God preached in the gospel and the Holy Spirit that accompanies it. The gift of Grace is once-for-all-time and doesn't need to be renewed with other means of any kind. Prayer, communion, fellowship, worship, and all similar spiritual activites are means of refreshing our souls, but no increase in grace is given. Grace is salvation received in faith; the other things are gifts resulting from salvation. The New Covenant is indeed between the Father & the Son. In this same covenant the Father gives the Son a great multitude of redeemed souls, as the reward of the Son's own election by the Father. I will say more on the issue of election as it relates to covenant in a coming study. In the gospel, --Twisse | ||
| Graceambassador |
Hi Bill and All: Last night on or about 11PM I received news that the church I attend, Faith Christian Center, a good church, despite of its "charismania", and that on this week end had Jim Bakker (the repentant TV preacher) scheduled to preach, burned to the ground! It is a many million dollars building wiht an auditorium of 2500 seats. The pastor is my buddy and my sons (young adults) spend much ot their time. It has been a shock here in town as this church building is one ot the town's pride. I live very close by and cannot believe the fire started at 6PM and I only found out at 11PM! This Sunday, we will meet in the civic center (5000 seats) and Jim Bakker will then preach. I will not be able to attend, but my point is in a form of a request: Since we all believe the Sovereignty of God, I ask you to pray that we discover what God is saying to this city with this sad event. **************************************************************************************************** Bill Twisse: Your studies should become text book for all those who believe in the "severance" with the "times past" (Eph 2). I also stopped writing beause the issues now being discussed are merely of a "former adventist" nature and I do not think is courteous for me to interject since I've never been a SDA although in the past I suffered with a kind of legalism that is just as devastating. I never received or read your study on "ecclesiology" from you, but prehaps I should say that I RECEIVED FROM THE SAME SPIRIT THAT GAVE IT TO YOU! I'd like to see it though! I will write more later. My wife is out of town, my sons ih their own activities and I was left with the home maintenance projects! What else is new?? If one knows me, they know that if they see me with a portable drill they should run for their lives! This is how skillful I am! I hope my wife has a house when she arrives on Monday! I will talk with all of you later! Grace Ambassador/Uncle Milt | ||
| Colleentinker |
Dear Uncle Milt, How shocking and sad about your church! Or course we'll pray for God's will to be known. By the way, please don't feel you shouldn't post just because you aren't a former Adventist. If you believe your experience with legalism and the Lord can help shed light and support, please share it! We all need support from each other when we walk with Jesus! In prayer for your church, Colleen | ||
| Breezy |
Uncle Milt, I was shocked and saddened to hear of your church burning to the ground. I will pray for God's will in this. All I can say without sounding too judgemental is, Jesus told us to not store up our treasures here on this earth. What I've learned in my experience is that when you start taking too much pride in worldly possessions, sometimes God allows things to occur that will help bring our priorities back in order. You mentioned that the town had alot of pride in this building. Perhaps God is showing the town that His presence is not in the trappings of a building, but rather within each one of our hearts. I know that God will build up something even better from the ashes of your church. It may not be bigger or more beautiful, but something more spiritual will take place. I am praying for you and your church family, Love, Wendy | ||
| Graceambassador |
Thank you for your loving show of support! I just visited what once was a beautiful building. Then I realized that we preach and preach about not being hooked on the "building" but the real "invisible" ek-klesia and here I am "viewing" the debris as one views a dead body in a funeral home! My sons are really the ones who are sad! This building, besides providing a meeting place for the ek-klesia, the "real church", was a "hang-out" place for the youth, including my sons. All the chairs were removed from the main meeting place during the week and the demarkations for a basket ball court would show! The kids would shoot some hoops and then would gather in the youth hall to play musical instruments and practice the youth worship. They were entrusted with very expensive musical and sount equipment, and there was no "policing". They felt at home and enjoyed "hanging-out" in the church-building premises. They even had some ladies that provided them with free food in a place annexed to the youth hall that resembled a MacDonalds. So, my sons had a very wholesome environment to spend their spare time. Well, thank you for your support! I am a travelling preacher and speaker. I have no "permanent dwelling" when it comes to a place to preach. But I "kind of" enjoyed the freedom of worship in that building when I was in town. I also believed that in terms of "outreach" for young people, that building provided the facilities of my dreams in the ek-klesia the evironment of my dreams, despite of the "charismaniac" theology, and some aspects similar to the "times past" (ceremonial law). But that's where I was a help in teaching some, especially the young people! I pray that my sons will find a place to go in the rest of the summer when there is nothing else to do... ************************************************** Colleen: I have no doubts in my heart that I would be welcome in discussing "former adventists" issues. You and in fact all the others, however, deal with the questions and opinions with such a wisdom that I find myself amazed at how you've grown in Grace. Also, I end up being the greatest of all beneficiaries of your growth. As such, I read most of the questions and opinions and hope to be of some help someday! I say it from the bottom of my heart! Grace Ambassador/Uncle Milt | ||
| Billtwisse |
Dear Brother Milt: I know you will consider it an honor that I still call you 'brother' and not 'uncle.' Since you are a man of great biblical discernment, you will understand my reasons. All I can do is to express sympathy and amazement at what happened with the house of worship. The reaction of your children is complelely natural and understandable. I also think that Wendy's comments and observations are especially appropriate, when contemplating the meaning of this type of event in God's plan. I was going to relate some personal incidents of burned-down churches, tragic deaths, and suicides--but I decided not to do it here. Even though I am a former Adventist, I totally understand what you are thinking and feeling. Too many former SDA's think that life is in continuous response to Adventism--even after leaving that religious ghetto. I have no problems with this forum, in fact, I find it refreshing. But even here it is difficult to shed the SDA mentality and discuss the real issues of our time. The SDA issues affect only a small portion the 'big picture' involved in the crisis of our times. We must find unity in the apostolic gospel, not in being former SDA's or former anything else. Since leaving SDAism, I have taken the same stance as D.M. Canright. My calling is not to lead others out of the heresy, even though the Lord may help me to do that in a very few cases. My calling is to prevent others from entering in. The Lord has blessed immensely in that endeavor. Of course, the task of preventing others from entering in is only a small portion of my total calling in the gospel. The main issue for all of us is confronting the lost masses with the gospel. --Twisse | ||
| Graceambassador |
Wendy, your comments were indeed appropriate and timely. Thanks for reminding me of "where my heart should be..." Thanks to you too Bill! And Bill: You made a very interesting point about John the Baptist in your last post and I will comment on it in a future post. It deals with the type of "in-filling" he received in his mother's womb and why the ek-klesia's "in-filling" with the Holy Spirit is superiior in its purpose. I guess I can save a lot of paper just by using a couple of your own words: "pointing and future" - John's annointing and in-filling still pointed to the future. He was to be Elias or Elijah - Luke 1:15. His mission was to be a "preparer" of the way of the Lord. Thus it points to the future. Many think that John had the Holy Spirit as the ek-klesia received in the Day of Pentecost. Therefore they argument that John is never known for practicing the "Spirituals" of 1 Cor 12 to 14. And he did not practice them. His annointing was for a special timing, pointing to Jesus, as such, it was futuristic. The ek-klesia in-filling came with two signs: THE RUSHING MIGHTY WIND THE TONGUES OF FIRE This is what I want to deal with in a next post. The revevance of it? We need to be reminded of what "time" we're living! We are not in the time where a preacher should "point" to Jesus as a "future" sacrifice! We received the confirmation sign of the RUSHING MIGHTY WIND AND THE TONGUES OF FIRE! I warn you ALL that such study will not be an APOLOGETIC of Pentecostal/Charismatic pseudo theology. It will be A GLORIOUS confirmation of our position today in the "heavenlies". I am itching to go forward but I have to stop now. As a HOME WORK, please study the element of "fire" in the entire OT since God looked upon Abel's sacrifice (looked keenly upon, in Hebrews, means "lit a fire" according to a Hebrew teacher friend of mine). Then study the element of the "wind" or "rushing mighty wind" or the "whirl" and you will get the hint. Hopefully you will catch the idea the same way those Jewish brethren caught in the Upper Room! They just knew what was going on in the "heavenlies"! Bill again: I believe your mission as described by you above is noble. I often say that it is easy for a man to leave a denomination, but it is HARDER for the denomination to leave him!. Sometimes we carry inside the same problems ans questions we had in the past. We bear the same burdens that we intended to lay down when we left. Jesus put it better: We can't patch an old garment with new cloth! We can't put new wine in old wineskins! Coming up... Grace Ambassador/Brother Uncle Milt | ||
| Graceambassador |
Correction: in my former post I state: "And he (John) did not practice them" As I was pointing out that John did not practice the Spirituals of 1 Cor 12 to 14 I meant ALL the Spirituals. It is obvious by his statement proclaiming "the one who cometh after me...who will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and Fire is proof that John was endowed with the gift (of the Spirit=Spirituals) of NT prophecy. I discovered my own mistake as I was preparing my future post on the difference between John's "in-filling" and our "in-filling" and its RELEVANCE today. Grace Ambassador | ||
| Bob |
Bill: In your post you said: "The SDA issues affect only a small portion of the 'big picture' involved in the crisis of our times. We must find unity in the apostolic gospel, not in being former SDA's or former anything else." My response: AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! I am delighted that you are here to help all of us "formers" keep a spiritually sane perspective! | ||
| Billtwisse |
Covenant, study VIII 8. The New Covenant has no Sacred Times (part 2) As we continue this study, the scriptures cited at the beginning of part 1 should be kept in mind. Where are we in the stream of prophetic history? We have seen that the Passover, Unleavened Bread, Wave Sheaf, and Day of Atonement (for believers) were all fulfilled in Christ's Passion. The festival of Pentecost was fulfilled starting 7 weeks after the resurrection and will continue to unfold till the final Advent of Christ. The Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement (for unbelievers), and Feast of Tabernacles will be fulfilled in the Parousia, final judgment upon sin, and eternal state of the righteous in the New Earth. What other special times in Christian history are the focus of Bible prophecy? The judgments of God have been manifest in all previous centuries. They will continue to occur in the remainder of temporal history. When I speak of judgment, I'm referring to both the positive and negative acts of God. Why do people want a timetable of prophetic events? One reason is because they do not see how God is acting now. If there is a theme to the book of Revelation, it is that God's power and purposes determine the meaning of all history. The world is full of judgment. Look around and see. God is continually acting to save mankind through the gospel; also to pour out his wrath on the unrepentant. There are only a few special events between the initial apostolic age and the final Advent of Christ that are mentioned in the New Testament: 1. The destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the Jewish nation (Mt. 24, Mk. 13, Lk. 21). The wrath of God has come upon Judaism to the uttermost, since it rejected the gospel. The final content of the Talmud certainly shows that God abandoned Judaism to believe and teach fables. In his wrath he sent upon them a strong delusion. A study of the Dead Sea Scrolls will reveal that Judaism still possessed the oracles of God in the century before Christ. But all of that ended with the final wrath of God upon the unrepentant nation. 2. The salvation of a significant number of Israel's descendants (Rom. 11:12-16, 28-32). This must happen because the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable (vs. 29). God promised salvation to the descendants of Abraham and he is bound to keep his word. Romans 11 is not referring to national Jewish restoration. That event is not salvific and it involves only a small portion of the tribe of Judah (possibly, some will even debate this point). What Paul is talking about is the salvation of the prophesied 'remnant' of Israel (Isaiah 10:22,23; Romans 9:27-29). It is not the majority (nor is it with any peoples) but it is significant. Interpreters disagree on the historical fulfillment of the salvation of Israel. I personally believe that the large conversion of Israelites in the early centuries of Christianity fulfills this prophecy. The salvation of the Gentiles did make Israel jealous and a large remnant of Israel turned to Christ. When I refer to Israel, I don't mean only the Jews--but also the tribes scattered abroad in the nations. The scattered masses of Israel are the recipients of grace that Hosea prophesied about. None of us really knows whether we are a physical descendant of Abraham or not. Our own conversion might fulfill this prophecy. God only knows. There may be a future dimension to the fulfillment of Romans 11. However, it is impossible to know for sure. God has already kept his word with regard to it. 3. The coming of the lawless one (2 Thess. 2). I believe that the same event is portrayed in Rev. 13, 17, and 20:7-10. Although many interpreters have proposed a historicist fulfillment of the final antichrist, I find all of their arguments unconvincing. The 'many antichrists' in 1 John do not fulfill what Paul is talking about. A number of historical individuals or entities have been proposed as being the antichrist: 1. Several of the Roman emperors (Nero, Domitian, Diocletian) 2. Mohammed/Islam. 3. The Papacy. These are the only three interpretations that 'stuck' for a long time. All of them had good reasons for what they espoused. But all lack certain NT characteristics. From what the Christ and the apostles said we can conclude certain things about the antichrist: 1. He will be an imitator of Christ by name. This fact alone rules out the above three. None of the amateurs in history so far who have claimed to be Christ made any significant impact. But this person will! 2. He will teach much Christian truth. The emperors and Mohammed taught none and the Papacy teaches only a small amount. In contrast, the teaching of antichrist will be so convincing and 'reasonable' that the elect might be deceived--if that were possible. The most orthodox of Christian denominations will be split down the middle as a result. Satan has been planning his final deception for 2000 years. He knows all the doctrines of Christianity. The final lie will comprehend all false teaching in all of the denominations. Even though we can't see how that is possible right now, it is. 3. He will be irresistable. As the heart of a man melts immediately in the presence of an attractive and gracious woman, or the heart of a woman melts instantly in the presence of a charming and responsible man, so will be attraction of antichrist--multiplied by a thousand times. 4. He will ultimately control a large family of nations. None of us have any idea of when the man of lawlessness will appear. He will come suddenly in God's own time. He will also be destroyed at the final Advent of Jesus Christ. The coming of antichrist will result in the final maturity of God's people promised in Ephesians, so there is reason to look forward to this event in God's plan. Christ will come for a bride that is ready for marriage. But for now, we can only occupy the time God had given us with faithfulness to the gospel. In conclusion, the times between the comings of Christ are to be occupied with gospel witnessing to the lost. Our own generation is not special in history. We are no different than any other generation of Christians. While we certainly hope that God will perform a great work of revival, there is no promise that this will happen. God saves many in some generations and few in others. Still to come: 9. The New Covenant has no works to gain blessing. 10. The New Covenant has no deserters. Conclusion: the new wine of the gospel. These final 3 studies will be posted all at the same time. Please be patient! --Twisse | ||
| Colleentinker |
Billówhat a provocative study! I admit my personal view of the salvation of the Jews has undergone quite a change in the past year, but I still feel uncertain about whether or not there is another, future fulfillment of Romans 11. I admit that I tend to think there is still a future fulfillment coming after "the time of the Gentiles". But I'm willing to wait and seeÖ I do agree that our time now is for preaching the gospel and that God is sovereign. If he wishes a revival to happen, it will happenóregardless of us! Your studies have been very interesting! Colleen |
