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Doug
Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 8:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Having been raised as a fourth generation Adventist, I grew up with a very delineated and specific eschatology (end time events). I now believe that many of these ideas may be just as erroneous as other SDA doctrine and am wondering if any one else would like to discuss end time events from a broader Christian perspective.

Ground rules: This is not about date setting, your salvation or anything else. It's about discussing the different views currently running throughtout mainstream Christianity. The Bible is more than 30% prophecy and so many of what mainstream Christians discuss is so far removed from SDA beliefs that this could be a very interesting topic.

Any takers?
Loneviking
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 4:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sure, why not? What did you have in mind? For starters you might try reading the books in the 'Left Behind' series by Tim LaHaye. IMO-they are about the best at presenting the futurist school of thought that I've found.
Sherry2
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 5:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well I do hear ya Doug. I've found that my thoughts have changed greatly, and I hold an open mindset to not believing things will happen "just so" but to know there are definite things to watch for - nothing more, nothing less.
Susan
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 7:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Doug! As a fellow-4th gen., I can really relate! But what was very helpful to me was doing an indepth bible study of Rev. in a CBS class a few years ago. They did a wonderful job of presenting all the different persuassions as an introduction. We received handouts that gave a brief description of these different positions. The teaching director was also very clear about the biblical evidence that exsists for all of these and she was adamant that we come to our own conclusions by prayer and careful study (not just taking what she or anyone else says). Boy was this a change from the SDA way of teaching Rev.!!!

Honestly, I didn't know where I stood when I started the course, and I still don't! But at least I have a better idea of what's what. Currently I consider myself "mid-trib.". From scripture, it seems clear to me that God's people will not suffer the pouring out of His wrath. But this may change as I study more. Perhaps when things are very puzzling in scripture, we should pray more and study it more! I wonder if that's what God intends???

Whenever we open our bibles I believer the most important thing to do is PRAY 1st. There is so much power in the word of God. With the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we truly can draw closer to God and grow in truth. Also, every time I study I am just blown away by the awesomeness and mightiness of God!

Looking forward to more discussion on this!
Doug
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 9:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have read the entire Left Behind series--I think it's a great story. At first, the idea of the rapture totally blew me away. I remember sitting through the membership class of the church we attend and when we got to this I almost freaked out. (Adventists have a real animosity against the rapture or the "secret" rapture) I am still not sure if I completely buy the rapture (pre-trib), but I can see how and why people believe this.

As far as I can tell, most mainstream christians fall into three basic groups:

Pre-trib (Rapture happens, not secret, but suddenly. Then we enter a 7 year period of tribulation and then Christ comes back to rule on the earth)

Mid-trib (Rapture happens, again not secret, but sometime during the tribulation but before the last 3.5 years)

Post-trib (Rapture happens after tribulation, 2nd coming & rapture all same event, same time as the great throne judgement)

I haven't seen anything to indicate that the rapture is secret--just sudden. Many Pre-tribers think the rapture is what kick-starts the tribulation and gives rise to anti-christ, i.e. to calm everyone down and explain where everyone went.

What I find more interesting is the attitiude of the different groups.

Those professing to believe in the pre-trib rapture are usually very humble about their position. They admit that they might be wrong and that's ok, but most of those who believe a mid or post-trib rapture are convinced that pre-tribers are whacko and the doctrine is from the devil.

What are Adventists? I think they are quasi post-trib. They do believe in the rapture in the sense we are caught up in the air after the time of trouble, but here's a good question:

Where do the thousand years of the millenium take place--in heaven or on earth?? This seems to be one distinct difference between SDAs and mainstream Christianity.
Chyna
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 12:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i have to admit that i like pre-trib coz i want to be in heaven in the banquet hall rather than suffering tribulation ;).

i have actually studied a lot on end times, but it was a bit ago and a bit rusty. i think i tend not to discuss it as much with nonChristians because it is one of the most difficult parts of the bible to conceive.

Chyna
Joni
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 1:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan,
What does CBS stand for and do you have an address?

I read the "Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church" by Rosenthal and found it interesting.
Joni
Billthompson
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 2:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug,

You made some good observations about people from the three different camps, pre-, mid- and post trib.

Here is one I've noticed. Pretrib. people anxiously await the return of Christ just like Christians have right down through history dating back to the apostles just after Christ ascended into heaven and promised to return. All have hoped it would happen in their lifetime.

Mid- and Post trib. people dread the last days because they fear the tribulation ("time of trouble" in SDA speak). They find themselves in the historicly unique place of dreading and trying to delay the second coming of our Lord.

I have studied this subject in depth and a good source is a book called "Things To Come" written by a professor from Dallas Theological Seminary, a seminary I have great respect for. He presents all three views and says there is more Biblical support for pretrib. but is humble about knowing for sure, just as you have mentioned.

David Koresh and Jim Jones' followers all were post trib. and thus had a strong fear of the government, etc. and were quite vulnerable to the control offered by a "prophet" who could guide them through the tribulation.

Anxiously Awaiting His Return,
Bill Thompson
Chyna
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 3:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

well, bill, you have sure described me as a pre-trib hopeful.

i remember when i was younger i was so excited about jesus christ coming back.

in canada (back in the day), we had cornfields at the end of our cul-de-sac street, and there would be all these cloulds hovering in the sky, and a sunbeam would just pour out from the heavens and it was like the rays were pointing down, illuminating the one spot that Jesus would appear :).

i was six, by the way, anyway, i never ran out to the field to "meet jesus" because a crazy robber who shot at houses committed suicide somewhere in the fields and his ghost scared me a quite a bit more.

hee,
Chyna
Ken
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Chyna:
You believe in Ghosts?
Ken
Chyna
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 4:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

nope, i don't now, i did as a child though.

chyna
Darrell
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 5:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I was a child I often had fear of Jesus coming, including bad dreams of it happening and I wasn't "ready". But thanks to God and the gospel that has been taken away, and now I am eagerly awaiting His return, whether pre-, mid-, or post-trib. I trust Him to take care of me during that time whether I am here or not.

Pre-trib certainly looks more attractive, but I don't see the Biblical support for it. God's promises to keep His people safe from His judgements could apply just as well to them on earth as in heaven.

At any rate, I will know Him when He comes, because I will by flying to meet Him!
Colleentinker
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 6:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting discussion, Doug!

When we studied Revelation with our evangelical neighbors before actually leaving the church, we were shocked to discover ourselves actually seeing evidence to suggest we might be raptured away before the outpouring of God's wrath. I will always remember the hope I began to feel, and the old fear attempting to drown it!

Last summer we took a class in Revelation from our pastor Gary Inrig who has his doctorate from Dallas Seminary. He confessed to us that he had always been a pre-trib believer, and indeed he still was, but he had to admit that the more he studied, the less clear that seemed. He said he was less certain that it had to be pre-trib than he used to beóalthough he still believed it!

I'm not sure exactly what I believe, but I'm feeling quite convicted that when the Bible says the righteous will not experience the wrath of God, that seems to be the wrath of God at the end of the tribulation spoken of in Revelation.

Perhaps the most astonishing thing I've discovered is that the millenium really is on earth, and there are people and nations here! I've read and re-read that chapter in Revelation, and I see no other way to interpret it. That alone seems to lay the groundwork for a convincing case that the prophecies in Isaiah about the peaceful earthly kingdom in which people live long lives, the lion lies down with the lamb, the Lord himself shall rule over them, may yet be fulfilled during the millenium.

I was taught those were conditional prophecies that Israel failed to realize because of disobdeience. That explanation never seemed adequate to me when I'd read those prophecies.

Bottom lineóI agree with Darrell; the fear of the time of trouble is gone. Whenever the rapture happens, I know God will be with me. And I'll know him when I see him!

It's really exciting to be able to think of reality as bigger and freer and less scary than I ever used to think it could be!

Colleen
Patti
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill wrote:
They find themselves in the historicly unique place of dreading and trying to delay the second coming of our Lord.

Patti:
You know, I hadn't really thought of it that way. Interesting point. I think you have something there!

I also agree with Darrell and Colleen. I don't know how it will all end up, but I do know that "when He appears, we will be like Him."

A thought that has always teased my mind: How many recognized the events leading up to Christ's first coming, outside of those who whom it was directly revealed. What makes any Christians think that they can know everything about Christ's second coming? All we need to know is Who we belong to and that He will never leave us nor forsake us.

Grace and peace,
Patti
Susan
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 7:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joni, CBS is Community Bible Study. I'd be happy to give you the number. It's 703-438-8223. They are a non-denominatonal bible study that meet once a week in a local church (any church that volunteers the space, so each city's could be at a different denomination!) It's in-depth and very low cost. People from so many different churches attend and it's really a blessing to learn and fellowship together. The person you contact at the above # will be able to tell you if there's a group in your area and if so, they'll give you all the needed info.. Also there are Bible Study Fellowship groups that are very similar and I've heard they are great as well. Hope this helps.

I think I need to study this topic much more! The comments made about mid-trib folks, don't really match up to how I see things. I guess I really don't know where I stand exactly. I totally agree with Colleen and the others, who mentioned not fearing end times anymore. My hope is so much greater now and it's so better substantiated than it was before. I guess I should just praise God and leave it all up to Him!

There was a man in my core group at CBS when we did this study. He took the best position I've ever heard. He said, "I'm not pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib, I'm pan-trib, I'm just going to wait and see how it all pans out!"

Susan
Steve
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ha!

I guess I'm pan-trib too. At least, that's one of the last things I'll get figured out.

Doug, thanks for starting this thread. Before I became SDA (SAD) I had read a lot of Hal Lindsey. I didn't understand everything he wrote. I studied his commentary on Revelation in a Baptist church and remember being very excited about the end of the world.

But then I read Bacchiochi's book (I think it was called Hal Lindsey's Prophetic Jigsaw Puzzle). I haven't read much by or about him in the last 20 years.

But one thing is very clear to me: Pre-SDA I was excited about the end times. Mid-SDA I was not excited about the end times at all. Post-SDA I'm just sorting through the rubble of it all. SDAism pretty much destroyed any excitement I had about the end of the world. It was always made to be such a dreadful thing, not Christ-centered at all, but sabbath-centered.

So I guess that my main input on this thread now is that at the end of time the issue will not be a day, or a remnant, or a prophet, but the Savior.

I (probably) even disagree with Steve Daily, who said late last year in a SS class that the sabbath may be a secondary issue. I'm not even sure it'll be secondary. It may get swept under the most overwhelming issue of who our savior is.

And rather than believing that a Sunday law must come into play, I now believe that the end could come at any mome . . .

Oh, just kidding! I'm still here.

I almost got raptured away in my thoughts.

Steve

(If I've rambled, it's because I honestly don't know much about the end times anymore. But God is in control of it all.)
Larimobley
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 9:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Steve,

I loved your "got raptured away in my thoughts" comment!

Doug and I (for those who don't know, we're married) spend a lot of time at the bulletin board at www.raptureready.com. There is a wide range of Christian (and not-so-Christian) people who post there. A lot of the recent discussion has hinged around end-time events and the timing of the rapture/second coming.

Some have even speculated that Christ would rapture his church on the 9th of Av, which happens to be today. Of course, I'm definitely not one for date setting given out dubious 1844 heritage, but Doug and I were laughing about whether that would be at midnight, Pacific Standard Time or what. Hey, that's only a few hours away...

It's been amazing to me this past year to read Biblical prophecy like Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah and Revelation without the SDA glasses on. Instead of my pre-conceived beliefs about end times from, you guessed it, The Great Controversy, I can just read the texts and look at what they say.

You're right, Colleen, about the millennium being here on Earth. At least that's how I read it--and it seems so clear. I can't understand how I missed that concept before in all my SDA studying of Revelation!

Of course, I've also read the entire Left Behind series, an additional book by Tim LaHaye and some post-trib books as well (think the author was Gundry).

I agree with Colleen's pastor Gary Inrig that the Bible is not overwhelmingly clear that the rapture will be a pre-trib event, but I still believe that it will be based upon everything I've studied so far.

So here's hoping with you, Steve. No matter what, I've read the end of the book and I know we end up with Jesus. It does all "pan" out.

In His grace,
Lari
Chyna
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 9:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

STEVE!

Steve Daily is my ex's ex-g/f's father.

small adventist community. i believe Steve Daily wrote a new book my ex b/f was reading recently.

too many ex's in this e-mail

the most recent ex,
Chyna
Chyna
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 9:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

they had us watch a scary 70's movie called, "Like A Thief in the Night." it was SO SCARY heeheehee. i was only in jr. high when I saw it, but it was only one of an "End Times" set of movies. one of them, I believe was called, "Rivers of Blood." eeesh.

the thing is, is that tribulation is already so so so awful, my ex was always like, "My God is not the God that would condemn those to hell eternally." God definitely ravages the earth in the end times.

*sigh*, Chyna
Doug
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 9:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've also thought that an interesting difference between the pre-tribers and the mid/post-tribers is that pre-trib are looking for Christ (in a sudden and unexpected, delightful event) and the mid/post-tribers are looking for the anti-chirst (a very depressing and non-delightful event).

The pre-trib position has the interesting effect of making me want to share the gospel much more often and with a great deal of enthusiasim. When I think about post-trib, I get depressed (focusing one's attention on the looking for the anti-christ might contribute to this).

I have also come to the conclusion that the 1000 years are here on earth--I do believe that the OT prophecies will be fulfilled through this period of time. The text does seem very clear--I wonder how I missed it or at least never questioned it all through school, college, grad school, etc. Must be that veil thing.

Of couple of other interesting topics:

Is the book of Revelation, then, to be more literally interpreted? (Are the two witnesses real? who are those dressed in fine white linen that come back with Christ in Rev 19? the raptured church?)

Is there a distinction between Israel and the Church with regard to end time events and the interpretation of scripture? (does Matt 24 apply to Israel or end time believers?, who really are the 144k?)

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