| Author | Message | ||
| Joni |
Chyna, You indeed are called and chosen by God. I continue to pray for you. Peace in the storm is what you have, even though you still pain. God will bless you!!!!!!!! Joni | ||
| Billthompson |
Chyna, Yes! Do ask your ex to share his testimony and ask for very specific things to be addressed in the testimony: --What (hopefully "who") SPECIFICLY is he trusting in for salvation. --Ask if they believe the blood of Christ covered just their past sins (prior to conversion) or ALL their sins. --Ask if he has a firm, secure assurance of his salvation. It is easy to overlook these foundational questions when you meet someone who is actively involved in following God or at least is very involved in a religion when seems "Christian" on the surface. It is easy to assume this is a fellow, born again, saved believer who simply has differences on certain doctrines. In many cases, not all, I find that when I ask this of SDAs they can not give any sort of clear testimony of ever putting their faith in Christ ALONE for salvation. Even those few who have seem to lack assurance. They'll easily tell of when they were baptized into the SDA church or first came to understand about the sabbath, etc. but clearly this is not the same thing as accepting the free gift of salvation which Christ made possible at the cross. Do not bother debating the sabbath, state of the dead, etc. until they have dealt with these questions honestly with you. Politely refuse to address these peripheral areas until you are sure they are saved and they themselves have assurance of their own salvation. Say something like, "I'd love to discuss the sabbath with you AFTER we put first things first. Tell me your testimony..." I have made the mistake in the past of carrying on long, heated, pointless, fruitless debates about the sabbath with a zealous SDA only to learn that the person is not saved or at least has no assurance. What appears to be hostility when debating such a person is often fear, fear that you may be right and then the only thing that gave them any hope for eternity (being part of the remnant denomination, the one that was right about the sabbath) will be shattered. Don't shatter the one thing that gives them security until you have first given them something far greater to be secure in. A Sinner Saved By Grace, Bill Thompson | ||
| Lori |
Chyna, Fourteen years ago: I was the Adventist who married the non- Adventist. I was the member of the remnant church who married someone outside the remnant church. I was the SDA who received several "talking to's" from the Adventist minister because I was marrying a non-Adventist. I became unequally yoked in their eyes. --The church that I grew up in denied me the option of being married in the church of my childhood......I was also denied being married by a minister that I was familiar with. My husband and I were married in a Baptist church by a minister that we spoke with twice. Each Sabbath after my marriage, I went alone to church.......all those that knew me prayed for my husband to become an Adventist. Interestingly enough, my marriage outside the church was not resisted by my parents. (My father was not an Adventist when my parents were married but later joined the church when I was about 9. I later found out from a friend of my dads that he only joined the church because of the pressure my mother put on him. But like many people who finally discover the Adventist life as adults, they become even more legalistic than a raised in it Adventist.) All discussions about being a 'real' Christian mostly ended with my husband keeping silent. I would always start the discussion (I had to prove SDA in the right) and name my proof text and he would simply tell me, "that is not what that text says", but of course (to me) his reason why it didn't say that, was met by total confusion on my part. He had a valid point, but my Adventist mind couldn't accept it. So I'd name another text (out of context) and the discussion ended because my non-Adventist husband understood something I never had--you don't argue about these things, it profits nothing. So what did I do after our "discussion". I grabbed my Bible, my EGW back up quotes (and I didn't even really believe in EGW, but whenever and Adventists is questioned they usually hit her books just for a quick "yeah, I was right" feeling. It's sort of like a drug.......you know it's not good for you and you should use the Bible, but it's quick to find your answer and it feels so good to be correct! And the second thing I would do is check in with my Adventist family and friends for mutual admiration for our "true beliefs" and of course it would end with...... "we will have to pray for him, he is a good man, he'll see the truth." The problem with that theory was my husband studied the scriptures for an hour each day under the guidance of a man well versed in the original Greek and Hebrew languages. Truth is he could walk circles around me in the understanding of scripture. This man that studied every day (he spent roughly an hour more in scripture every day than I did, I didn't want to learn anymore.....I already knew enough, everything I learned just required more work on my part.) was condemned and rejected by my church, he was labeled a heathen! It always amazes me that the SDA make enemies out of other Christians. Chyna, from the Adventist mind, (even from the Adventist mind that doesn't totally accept EGW) you are viewed as worldly. You are just like an unbeliever in their mind because you do not embrace the Sabbath. And, also, as you have been subjected to their truth and not received it, you are in the process on hardening your heart to the truth. In my marriage to my non-Adventist husband, my eating habits (I did eat "clean" meats) became part of his life because I did the cooking. I tried to impose turning off of the television. We had to wait until after sundown to go out to dinner on Saturday. We couldn't go out to dinner on Friday during the summer. If we went to the lake on the weekend, we couldn't water ski during the Sabbath hours (we could play card games!!) ......and my husband was forced to abide by these rules, he didn't have a choice. If he came in the den (on Saturday) and turned on the television and my parents were there, they got up and left the room. If he ate pork or shell fish in a restaurant, it made everyone uncomfortable. His family views you as worldly..........they don't view you as a Christian that worships with other Christians. You are a bigger enemy than an unbeliever. A bible study with your Adventist friend will only end up with him digging for more Adventist truth, he will only become more Adventist with every effort that you try to show him the truth. I know, because that is what I did. Pray for him......you don't have to give up on him spiritually or as far as a relationship. You just need to go into it with you eyes wide open. Certain religious beliefs of his will become part of your life, like it or not, if you do marry. And his family will always view you as lost until you accept their beliefs. Or, should he ever see the light and leave the church, he will be ostracized by his family and friends and they will in part blame you. (That's what happened to me.) But, it wasn't my husband that 'showed' me the truth......he had enough sense to never try to prove me wrong......I accidentally stumbled over a "contradiction" to scripture and the only place I could find a basis for the Adventist belief was in the writings of EGW. Every scripture I found support a very non Adventist belief. (It concerned Michael the Archangel) After that the doctrines of the Adventist church crumbled right before my eyes. And, I was left standing in the rubble of everything that I had ever believed as truth. All that remained of the remnant church on which my salvation had hinged was my faith that Jesus Christ was the son of God and had been raised from dead. For months before I found the contradiction that changed everything, I had not been going to church at all. My parents were not concerned about that or my disbelief in certain Adventist truth, it was when I told them I was worship with another denomination that it all hit the fan. The Adventist family views you as the enemy.....and since you are the enemy, it helps to know your enemy, even though I know you do not view them that way. I hope in someway it will help you, to see how you are viewed as the non-Adventist girlfriend to the Adventist family. By the grace of God I saw the truth, but it was in God's time, keep praying for your ex b/f and his family , you may be the only non-Adventist opinions that they are subjected to, you may be the only 'gospel light' that reaches them!!! Lori | ||
| Maryann |
Wow Lori, wow, Thank you for sharing that. I'm sure that there are untold numbers of people that will be blessed from what you shared! :-)) There is a couple, one being an SDA and the other being a non-SDA. They were in counseling with an SDA pastor. After some time the pastor asked the SDA spouse: "Is is more important to you that your spouse be an SDA than a Christian?" The spouse said: YES! I find that very interesting. That one would rather be married to an SDA then a Christian?! I find it even more interesting that an SDA would differentiate between SDA and Christian! In fact, that aught to knock the socks off anyone that reads this! Maryann | ||
| Susan |
Thank you Lori for your touching and true depiction, of how Adventists (all that I've ever known) view outsiders. You really summed it up nicely! A flood of memories came back about my own parents. My dad was a non-SDA who converted to marry my mom. He never became involved very much after the marriage though. You said, "All that remained of the remnant church on which my salvation had hinged was my faith that Jesus Christ was the son of God and had been raised from the dead", how utterly profound! Isn't it so unbelievable that there's really nothing more. The true remnant church is made up of all who embrace this simple yet eternal,life-giving fact. Thank you for your remarkable story. I am so blessed by what you shared. Susan | ||
| Chyna |
lori, i have been there :). when we would do bible study together I would make a point, and I would wait for him to acknowledge the validity of the point of what the scripture said, but he wouldn't say anything and then he would just flip to another verse out of context. for example I would say: "the fact that paul says not to judge anyone about what days they observe must mean that it doesn't matter which day you observe on and so you can worship on a day that's not saturday because if Paul regarded breaking the Sabbath as a sin, then he wouldn't have been able to say that." then he would just insist, "the sabbath is made for man, the sabbath is a delight etc." or other irrefutable points about michael not daring to rebuke satan, or michael being one of the chief princes etc. you are right, in a way another Christian is worse than an unbeliever to them because I am familiar with the Bible, having been raised in the church and taught well, that I "can't see the truth." >And, also, as you have been subjected to their >truth and not received it, you are in the >process on hardening your heart to the truth the truth is when I met his family, they were as wary of me as I was of them. i'm sure they knew I had heard that adventism is a cult etc. at the end of the week we both concluded that adventists can be Christians, and well, that i was a Christian, i guess ;). lori, thanks for your encouragement. what was our breaking point was raising children. i told him the first week we were dating that 1. i would never become an adventist and 2. i would not raise my children adventist. when he still wanted to date me I thought the issue was over, but in his mind he thought that I hadn't really heard the truth of adventism and that upon hearing it i would convert to adventism. also there had never been a doubt in his mind that he wanted his children to attend adventist schools from pre-school to graduate school. once it gets to the children, you become really clear about what you want because you are responsible for them. there is no way I would let my future babies attend adventist schools where they had the possibility of learning false doctrine. i am praying for him, and I guess I will start praying for his family. God does work in hearts. and while they seem immovable, God is the master of accomplishing the impossible (to humans) i would ask him, "do you believe that I have sound doctrine? that i am rather clear on studying the bible and in interpretation?" he would reply, "mostly." I found it interesting that he would be willing to think that my opinions were well founded on any other aspects of the bible except for the points we disagreed upon. also, another grave problem is that my ex-b/f didn't know how to love me with my flaws. he just let them bother him throughout the entire relationship and never accepted them. i wonder how this can be, since he experiences unconditional love from God, but perhaps somehow in relationships it loses translation. hm, so I realize (though I am very sad) that we cannot be together unless his heart changes. thank you so much for sharing your story with me. i really believe that God works out all things for good for those that love Him. already I have become more alive in His word, and I have been able to come here and talk with all the FAF'ers, and I've had the opportunity to talk to another Adventist friend, whom I am *sure* will be more sympathetic to me than to my ex-b/f, because she is one of my girlfriends from college. when she reads my e-mail, she will mentally and emotionally side with me because I am the one who was broken up with, and then when she reads the rest of my e-mail concerning adventism, it might plant some seeds because her mind will be more open to hearing my side. my ex-b/f and I will not be able to get back together until we can agree on how to raise our children, and since I cannot see myself agreeing to raise them adventist, we won't be able to be together unless something radical happens in him. i cannot thank everyone enough for your unremitting support. i feel so blessed coming here and discussing and talk with all of you. lori, it does help to know how much of an 'enemy' i am to the adventist faith. to pry my ex-b/f away from SDA'ism would just cause him to resent me for trying to change him. if he can come to make the decision himself, he will be more convicted about it than i could ever be :). love, Chyna | ||
| Colleentinker |
Lori, thank you so much for telling your story. What a lot of pain and frustration you've been through! Praise God he brought you to know Truth! I remember with shame a good friend I had in academy. I talked with her on the phone for hours, but I didn't hang out with her at school. We did have independent friends, but on the bottom line I felt subconsciously superior to her because her father wasn't an Adventist. My sister (who was friends with my friend's sister) and I have talked several times in the past months about how shameful it was of us to enjoy their company in private but to hold them at arm's length because they weren't "fully" Adventist. Chyna, God is opening your eyes for more reasons than your boyfriend, who is a big enough reason! He redeems everything, and experiences like this one you're going through will prepare you for something you don't even know about yet. God has a plan for youóand your ex is in his hands, too! Praise God for his sovereignty! Colleen | ||
| George |
To all the above, It always amazes me when I remember how all the SDAs I knew and all those in offshoots of SDAism, thought of and treated every one else as if they were the devil. No one was to be trusted in business or pleasure or anything else. They were the only ones that could ever be honest, true and faithful. Yet it was them that shafted me the most and the worst throughout my life. I came to realize they felt that God was on their side and because He was they could do no wrong. Nothing I could do was good or right, after all how could I fight against God? Ahd why do SDA vegetarians always have to make such rude comments when they see someone eating meat? What are you eating, dead cow? What is that, dog food? You are what you eat, you must be a pig. I could go on and on but I think you get the picture. I guess they never realized what they were eating was dead too, or that they killed it while they chewed it. I am reminded of an observation Paul Harvey had on the radio some time ago. When the United States was young, many countries could see that what we has was good and wanted to be like us. They wanted to follow our example of freedom and equality. We were not out there telling every one what to do and how to do it, we were leading by example. Sometime around the first world war things changed, we started to tell people what they should do and how they should do it. We were not leading by example any more, we were trying to make countries do what we wanted them to do because we were right and they should listen to us because we were. We not only had the power we were the power that would make them change. What happened? Fewer and fewer people wanted to be like us. This is about the best example of ìby their fruits you shall know themî I ever heard. We should all be able to learn something from the above observation. George | ||
| Colleentinker |
Excellent observation, George! Colleen | ||
| Sherry2 |
Thanks for your story, Lori! Amazing. You have also given me advice from how your hubby dealt with you on how to deal with mine. I definitely have learned very quickly to shut up about most things, because it does drive them deeper into SDA land. I left the church this May and my hubby is still there. The miracle of it all is my folks (who only back in May were saying how the Sunday-keepers were going to kill us someday) are now leaving the church as well. They're remaining where they are as they search, and my Dad wants to use his opportunity as elder to preach the gospel from the pulpit whenever possible. "Transformed by Truth" - story of the Worldwide Church of God was really awesome too, if anyone wants to read an encouraging story that sounds so much like Adventism. | ||
| Chyna |
hello friends, i had been sending my ex some various things from this site and things I had been thinking about about the soul/hell/michael the archangel etc., well. i finally asked him what his testimony was and he was really vague. he said that he continually makes the decision to follow God. when i asked him when was the first time he said: maybe six, or seven. and he said that he was baptized. but then he said he was sure that he probably was saved before then. and he didn't know what the big deal was about having a personal testimony of becoming a Christian was about. so i asked him what he prays now, and he said he confesses, asks for forgiveness, thanks God for salvation etc. then, for some reason we got on a tangent because he didn't like my examples of irrevocable decisions, he said i was mixing decisions with consequences, and I said that was true, there are some decisions that come with irrevocable consequences and while we may decide later we don't want it anymore, you can't go back. at that point we drifted off the topic to soul sleep, and he just got increasingly angry. finally he told me he wanted to suspend all contact with me. i can only think of his actions as characterized by anger. i asked him why he was so angry, and he was like "I don't know." and he just got angrier and angrier. he kept saying he felt so frustrated and bothered by our conversation. like Walter Martin said about pursuing cult members, is to talk to them until they don't want to talk to you anymore. *sigh* i guess i did that. when we were talking before (last week) he told me a story of how his mother went out with a non-Christian before she met his dad. and now he said that she could raise the kids the way she wanted to, but he wasn't going to become adventist. then her parents sent her to Europe to be separated from him for awhile and when she came back, she broke up with him. and how she was so lucky she didn't marry that guy b/c then she met his dad, an Adventist. i was aghast, i was like "you're telling me, you think i'm like the non-Christian guy?" when i talked to him last night i wondered how this could be the same person i dated and loved, that he could be characterized so much by hate and anger. and i think it all links back to him clinging to adventism with all his might. please continue praying for him, and me. last night i couldn't sleep because i felt so troubled. maybe i should fast and pray before God. in Him, Chyna | ||
| Billthompson |
Chyna, I have my own web site where I share my testimony of leaving the SDA church about 21 years ago after learning the truth of the gospel. I have had the opportunity to correspond with many SDAs through my site. I used to have these endless debates, but finally I stopped and started every new conversation with asking the person to share their testimony. In each case they would either drop all discussion right there and refuse to answer or they'd give a brief, vague story about when they were baptized or learned the "truth about the sabbath", etc. Then they'd try to change the subject. When I refused to move forward until I was sure they had a firm assurance of salvation, they'd cut off all conversation, just like your ex did. I've had my web site for 3 1/2 years now and have heard back from several of those people who cut off conversation. They thanked me for forcing them to deal with the "main thing". Two told me they were saved after cutting off all conversation with me. several others said they think they were already saved but because of the focus on the gospel from our conversations they now had settled it and have assurnace. Each of these people were very grateful (after the fact) that I refused to take the spot light off the gospel. It made them really look at an area they had neglected in all their other religious ramblings. I am absolutely convinced that this is the way to deal with people like this. I am sure this is what Walter Martin had in mind too. Don't let them go on and on puffing up their pet doctrines which make them feel superior. Make them see we are all sinners in desparate need of the saving grace which Jesus made possible. From what you said, your ex could be saved but I do not think he has any assurance. Notice he talked about asking forgiveness daily for his sins. This is a good thing to do but I'll bet he thinks that is necessary in order to keep from losing salvation. He became aggitated because you hit on an area where he feels insecure, assurance of salvation. He feels very secure discussing the sabbath or state of the dead, but security in salvation, that is another story. I had a well known SDA professor and Bible scholar write me challenging me to debate him online about the sabbath (He'd seen my web site). I told him I'd discuss it with him only after he shared his testimony complete with why he has a firm assurance of his own salvation. I never heard from him again and this guy loves to debate. A Sinner Saved By Grace, Bill Thompson | ||
| Billthompson |
Chyna, You said you saked him to share his testimony but did you ask him to address these three areas? --What you are trusting in for salvation. --Did the blood of Jesus cover just your past sins or ALL your sins? --Do you have a firm assurance of salvation? I have learned from dealing with MANY SDAs that these are the three areas they MOST need to focus on. I don't know if you'll have another chance to talk to him again or not, or if you already asked for these three areas to be addressed. If you get another chance emphasize these three things specificly and see what happens. I have seen the Lord use this set of questions to transform many SDAs, some saved who were not already and others had their Christian walk and witness along with a better perspective on all other areas of doctrine, by simply having solid assurance of their own salvation. The Gospel is a great equalizer. It brings us all to our knees right at the foot of the cross. We seem less concerned about differences in that context, also. Bill Thompson | ||
| Bmorgan |
Bill, Do you mind telling me you website address? Will love to visit. BMorgan Ps. I will start CBS study on Romans this fall. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Chyna, What Bill has said is very true. He in fact said it better than I've ever heard it put. I may even enlarge it, print it out and post it in every room in my house. I need to also follow his advise. You said: "maybe i should fast and pray before God." Do you supose that you have your answer already? Do you supose the seed has already been planted? Do you supose that someone else is suposed to water it? Do you supose you aught to rest and let God take over? I have a serious problem with helping God! It is hard not to help God when it appears to me that he hasn't answered a prayer. Some times he does answer and the answer is NO! Or wait! If I tell my kids NO! Or WAIT! and they keep begging me, I get really upset. I'm saying this because I get the definate impression that this whole thing is tearing you up!? Take a break, take a rest. God keeps working even when we sleep. You DID come into your x-boy friends life for a reason! You've gone out of his life for a reason too! BTW, could you help me out? How do you pronounce your name? Upward and onward.......Maryann | ||
| Chyna |
dear bill, i did get to cover the last two, after some tentative responses he finally did say he thought jesus died for all of his sins past, present and future, and that he did know he was saved because God knew what was in his heart, i didn't get around to the first part. what we did get stuck on is that fact that he can't see the transformation of salvation as permanent. thanks maryann for your perspective. it is time to give it all over to God sans my active participation. with love, Chyna (pronounced like the country of china) | ||
| Billthompson |
BMorgan, Here is the URL for my site: http://web2.airmail.net/billtod/ God Bless, Bill Thompson | ||
| George |
Chyna, The trouble with using your (my)sisters computer is you talk to her about what you want to say to others. And then she goes ahead talks about it before I get a chance. SISTERS!!!!!! Well, here goes anyway, because she didnít get it all said. Over the years I have been bothered about prayer and the question of whether they are getting answered or not. What triggered my thoughts was when you said you thought you should or would fast and pray about the things going on in your life. My thought was, why should you have to fast and pray? You have already prayed about this many times, and I am sure God has done what ever He wants about it. So lets take a look at what has happened, you have asked God to do something, He has, I am sure, done what He wants to do about it, so what is lacking, why havenít you seen anything happen? There is one person that has not done anything yet that we know of, thatís right it is your b/f. We donít know for sure what God has done about it, it could be that He didnít want to do anything and that is where it will end. It could be that God HAS done something and is saying that it is your ex-b/fís turn, either way you have done your part and further prayer or fasting on your part is not necessary. I guess what I am trying to say is, if we donít have to beg God for what we want (salvation) why should we have to beg God for what we want for others. Begging will not get us anywhere if all parties have not checked in. Make sense? It does to me. What do you think? This is open to every one. George | ||
| Colleentinker |
Bill, I just want to say how much I've appreciated your asking people for their testimonies and for pointing out to us the necessity of focusing on salvation before we discuss doctrines. I also want to thank you for your website. It was one Richard studied as we were making our exit. Thank you so much for your contributions on our forum! Colleen | ||
| Chyna |
George, fasting and praying is just a sign of earnestness. i know it's a common thing at my church to pray and fast when we really want God to hear our prayers. hm. it's not saying that my prayers will be answered sooner, but somehow in the physical demonstration my prayer will be heard more stridently? i don't know maybe it has something to do with the body/soul divide. i know elijah cried out to the Lord and God heard him and granted his prayer :). i will think more on the fasting and praying thing. in Him, Chyna |
