| Author | Message | ||
| Chyna |
there is a lot of speculation that those two witnesses will be Elijah and Moses. i think there is actually some credence to that speculation because Elijah and Moses appeared at Jesus's baptism, and they seem to be ones that God would choose to return to earth to preach. Matthew 17:1-4 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah." anyway, i was reading about Elijah how God gave him the ability to make the land in a state of drout, to shut up the heavens from rain. 1Ki 17:1 - Now Elijah, who was from Tishbe in Gilead, told King Ahab, "As surely as the LORD, the God of Israel, lives ñ the God whom I worship and serve ñ there will be no dew or rain during the next few years unless I give the word!" and then last night i was reading Revelations b/c of this discussion and it said that the two witnesses would be feared because they had the ability to shut the heavens, to prevent rain from coming down. 6 They have power to shut the skies so that no rain will fall for as long as they prophesy. And they have the power to turn the rivers and oceans into blood, and to send every kind of plague upon the earth as often as they wish and the rivers of blood and plagues are totally reminiscent of Moses against the Pharaoh. i think elijah was a pretty cool guy. i think i might name my future son that, if i have one. although it's going to sound awfully weird: Elijah, Madeline, and Claire and then, I remember the speculation that the 14,400? will be those sons of Israel who will be converted in the end times because God will attempt to bring them to Him in the end times. interesting, Chyna | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Chyna, Oops...was that a slip of the key...Moses and Elijah appeared at Jesus' baptism? Rather than the mount of transfiguration. You've really been a blessing to this site:-)) If you like, you can e-write me at gogold@quixnet.net Maryann | ||
| Chyna |
yes :) that's what i meant :). thanks Maryann, it's been really nice chatting to both you and your brother. Chyna | ||
| Darrell |
I think you are on to something, Chyna, in identifying the two witnesses as Moses and Elijah. I would not say it is literally Moses and Elijah, but the language of the prophecy is clearly referencing them, and what they did. It is a good place to start when studying the prophecy. | ||
| Steve |
Hi Chyna, Steve Daily's two popular books are, Adventism For A New Generation, and The Heresies of Jesus - Getting Radical With the Heretical Christ. I read The Heresies of Jesus last year. It's really a good book, but I still had my SDA glasses on. I need to go back and take another look at it. Daily was always very provocative in Sabbath School class. Late last year, he made a presentation and handed out papers with questions on them. At the top of the paper, he wrote a sentence that said: Just Whordinary People. Although he never referred to SDA's as those people, it was very clear to me that that was his intention. I am now amazed that Daily can remain SDA with many of the positions that he takes. I guess if one were to look at SDAism the way Ratzlaff does in Cultic Doctrine, you could say that Daily seems to fluctuate between the Evangelical and Liberal camps within SDAism. But he does seem to be living out what one might call the Social Gospel. He's currently working in Loma Linda, doing something with helping the poor/needy of the community. His book, Adventism For A New Generation caused a few ripples in the church, but don't know of any changes that have come about due to his influence. Steve | ||
| Steve |
Howdy, Doug wrote: "I've also thought that an interesting difference between the pre-tribers and the mid/post-tribers is that pre-trib are looking for Christ (in a sudden and unexpected, delightful event) and the mid/post-tribers are looking for the anti-chirs (a very depressing and non-delightful event)." If I were to label my self right now, I might come out on the post-trib end of things, but haven't really studied it yet. Here's my thought about this: IF post-trib is true, are we going to know that we're in the tribulation? Perhaps the end-times will just be an extension/worsening of the already bad situations on earth at the present time. Maybe post-tribbers can be Christ-centered as long as they're not focusing on the tribulation as a separate event from the current world situation. If we maintain our Christ-centeredness through our current life situations, perhaps we can remain Christ-centered through the tribulation as well. SDAs have always said that the redeemed at the end of time will experience sinless perfection. I'm now wondering if the tribulation for end-timers will be any different than other "tribulations" have been for Christians throughout the centuries. I know Revelation indicates horrible times, but wasn't burning at the stake under Nero about as horrible as it gets? Steve | ||
| Breezy |
Exactly, Steve. Go to Sundaylaw.com and see just how horrible it is beginning to get. When soldiers can raid a home and steal our children at gunpoint with the sanction of the government, what is to stop them? The current law that is being slipped past congress is that when someone is under criminal suspicion, there will be no need any longer for a judge's order or warrant before entry. All they will have to do is have some cause and then break into your home. The country is blissfully unaware of how much we are policed now. Including the internet, streets(cameras posted everywhere), phone monitoring, etc. I don't see vicious persecution to far off. It is all out there if you'll look for it. Also go to discovery.com's earth alert and look at the major natural disasters,plagues, famines,pestilence, wars, blood-like water, millions of acres burning world-wide, etc. It is there for all to see if you look for it. Every facet of the religious world knows that the second coming is very soon. Not just Adventists. The problem with pre-trib is that it locks you into a certain way things must happen, a certain amount of time, even though the events preceding Christ's coming are happening now. What happens to the pre-tribber who says that from now it has to be seven years til Christ comes, or 3 1/2 or whatever. They won't be ready now and perhaps will not be focusing their lives on Christ right now because there is still so much time. We need to accept Jesus and His sacrifice now. Live our lives for Him now. Not 3,7,or 10 years from now. God Bless, Wendy | ||
| Chyna |
steve, my ex read to me from Steve Daily's book: Adventism for a New Generation. he read aloud a quote about how the church shouldn't prohibit people from: dancing, going to movies, eating meat, wearing jewelry... etc. but should concentrate on the gospel. and when he read that aloud to me i was like, "that's good, but do you see that other churches are already free from those restrictions? that other churches don't have to rid themselves of unnecessary doctrine or constraints." basically i was making a case for joining another church rather than trying to change an old one, but i guess that's my view as an outsider. heh, anyway, apparently the Dailys didn't like my ex very much, maybe b/c he's traditional. don't know. Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
uh steve, did you mean to say something different than: Just Whordinary People? | ||
| Chyna |
re: Adventism for a New Generation Daily, who teaches at La Sierra University, takes an entirely different tack, one which might be called "California." He dresses up Adventism in conservative but socially active Evangelical garb, with a definite "grace orientation." To do so, however, he rejects or substantially redefines several traditional Adventist beliefs and practices, including the concept of the remnant and the investigative judgment, but remains fairly conservative on many social issues. His religion is more one of good works than it is of correct doctrine. He is to be credited with daring to tackle the serious theological problems facing the church which the other authors only partially address at best. It is a provocative and useful book. | ||
| Doug |
One of the reasons I lean toward the pre-trib position is because I believe in the eminent return of Christ. Follow my thoughts for a second: I believe the tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel (7 days = 7 years), also known as the time of Jacobs trouble. If you tie Daniel 9 and Rev 11 together, a reasonably clear picture emerges. When the anti-Christ signs a seven year treaty with Israel (Dan 9:27), the seven year tribulation starts. The two witnesses in Rev 11 begin preaching at this time. Half way through this 7-year treaty, the anti-Christ reneges and the desolation of abominations occurs (also in Matt 24). At the same time in Rev 11, the two witnesses are killed. The coincidental timing of all these events is startling. The remaining 3.5 years kick the tribulation into high gear. God's wrath is poured out on the earth. Matt 24 talks about fleeing into the hills (this is the difficult Sabbath reference, but if you believe the church has been raptured and this message is primarily for the Jews of the trib, it makes sense.) At the same time in Rev 12, we now have the descendents of the woman fleeing into the wilderness for time, times and half a time. Same 3.5 years as Dan 9. Everything fits logically together. If these specific prophecies are true (treaty, desolation of abomination, etc) then we would know exactly when the Lord will return, or at least a very good idea. But the pre-trib rapture could happen at any time. Tonight, tomorrow, next century. I believe the rapture is what kick starts the tribulation. I don't believe the church will be here when the anti-Christ signs the 7-year treaty. The anti-Christ may be able to pull his deception off in an attempt to calm everyone down and bring peace to the world after millions have vanished. The pre-trib rapture specifically allows for the eminent return (thief in the night idea, things are normal, everyone's partying idea) of Christ. A text I came across in 2 Thess 2:1 also fits in: ìAnd now brothers and sisters, let us tell you about the coming again of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to meet him." NLT I believe Paul is referencing two specific events here--the coming and the gathering. Coming is glorious appearing and gathering is rapture. If you read the context of the rest of the chapter, these people were afraid they had missed something. Paul describes the desolation of abomination as the sign of the end. They thought they were in the tribulation, and therefore they had missed the rapture. If these people believed in a post-trib view, they would not have been frightened, because they would have known the end was near. By fearing they were witnessing the A of D, they had missed the rapture and were now faced with going through the tribulation. Paul reassures them that coming and gathering are separated by the A of D and not to fear, they hadn't missed the train. Again, these are some of my thoughts as I have studied these passages prayerfully, but whatever your belief, it has nothing to do with your salvation, the saving grace of Christ or reaching out to give a loving hand to those who need it. One of the things I have read that I really like is the idea of: If the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense. Adventists have so twisted and muddled their eschatology that I view these new ideas (to me anyway) as refreshing. The pre-trib view seems to make the most logical sense and in my mind, gives me the most desire to spread the good news. One more thought. Christ references the end of time like the days of Noah. Noah went into the ark (in fact, Genesis says, " God said to Noah, come into the ark." Not go into, but come into (i.e., come into the presence of God) seven days before the rain (final judgement?). Is this a parallel to the 7 years we will be in Heaven while the trib is going on? Next question: If not a pre-trib rapture, when do the rewards judgement (I Cor 3) and the marriage feast of the lamb take place? The seven years we are our heavenly condos (John 14) seem like a good time. Anyway, thanks for putting up with my thoughtsÖ | ||
| Larimobley |
Dear Wendy, You wrote: "What happens to the pre-tribber who says that from now it has to be seven years til Christ comes, or 3 1/2 or whatever. They won't be ready now and perhaps will not be focusing their lives on Christ right now because there is still so much time. We need to accept Jesus and His sacrifice now. Live our lives for Him now. Not 3,7,or 10 years from now." I think you're misunderstanding what pre-tribbers believe. Pre-tribbers believe that the rapture of believers occurs BEFORE the 7-year tribulation--a pre-tribulation rapture. In other words, for a pre-tribber, the rapture could occur at any moment. We must be ready NOW because our Lord may return at any time to gather us in the air to meet Him. The second coming, also called the "glorious appearing" is AFTER the 7-year tribulation when Christ returns bodily to the earth. The Church (i.e. those saved before the rapture) have already been with Christ this entire 7-year period. So, the pre-tribbers would definitely agree with you. We must be ready now, because our Lord could come at any time. A pre-tribber is anxiously looking for Christ to return and gather his Church, not looking for the anti-Christ to appear and then waiting an additional 7 years. Hence, I believe that a pre-trib belief encourages evangelism much more than a post-trib position. We won't have 7 years (or 3.5 years) to "get ready." Christ could come at any moment for His church. In His grace, Lari | ||
| Breezy |
Why do pre-tribbers believe that there will be a second chance for those unconverted. Jesus and the gospels teach otherwise. Wendy | ||
| Larimobley |
Dear Wendy, That's a great question, and I don't claim to fully understand pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib beliefs fully. From what I understand, though, I don't see this as a second chance, because people left behind after the rapture are still alive. I agree that the Bible teaches there is not a second chance after death, but I don't believe this is the same as after the rapture. People left will still have the opportunity to accept Christ--for the first time. There's a relatively new book by Tim LaHaye called "Revelation Unveiled" that explains the pre-trib position in detail, along with the book of Revelation. You can find a lot more about pre-trib beliefs from LaHaye than from me! There are also those who believe that the "gathering in the air" to meet Christ happens at the same time or just before the "glorious appearing" or 2nd coming, without the separation of 7 years. I've read a book by Gundry (can't remember his first name) that goes into detail about this, which is a post-trib position. Personally I find myself leaning more toward the pre-trib position, but am certainly in agreement the "pan-millenialist" view. Pre, mid, or post-tribulation, it will all "pan" out in the end, and we'll be with Jesus. In His grace, Lari | ||
| Jtree |
Oh, you are not aware of pan-tribulation? That is, in the end, it all pan's out. Giving Him Glory... | ||
| Bruceh |
Breezy ----Why do pre-tribbers believe that there will be a second chance for those unconverted. Jesus and the gospels teach otherwise.---- I am a pre-trib in my belief and I do not understand what you mean, that there will be a second chance for those unconverted. Could you explain what you mean? By the way Pre-trib, Mid-trib or Post-trib, all have great teachings and are great studies, My advise is to do a complete study of all three. Bruce Heinrich BH | ||
| Breezy |
Bruce, I have watched several pre-trib movies and perused LaHaye's books, and they all involve the saved being raptured and then during the tribulation those who haven't accepted Jesus will have the chance to do so. I have never once seen convincing studies that lead me to believe that the Bible teaches a rapture-tribulation-second coming theory. It just is not there. Maybe some stuff can be twisted, but that is it. By the way, I am a big fan of Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Impe. I love both of their Intelligence Reports. Keeps me up with end-time events. But when they start talking about the rapture I just tune them out. Because the evidence is not there. When the Bible talks about the time of great trouble but the Lord will save them out of it, He means that they will be protected from it. Just as He has been able to do for Millenia. People like the pre-trib theory because they don't want to suffer. Yet Jesus said that those who suffer for Him will receive a crown of life. People who are Post-trib are the ones who truly show faith in God because they trust Him and Him alone to protect them no matter what may come against them. Pre-trib people seem to not believe that God could save them even while they are here on this planet. When there has been tribulation on this earth before, God has worked mighty miracles to save His people. Not raptured them away. He will do the same again if we hold fast to Him till the end. Trusting in Him alone, Wendy | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Wendy, You said: "Yet Jesus said that those who suffer for Him will receive a crown of life." Very true!!! But I certainly don't think that has any particular reference to any of the "3-tribs!" All though the ages, there have been ba-zillions of Christians that have suffered for Him! Maryann | ||
| Breezy |
Maryann, You don't agree that in Revelation it says there will be a time of trouble such as never was? This relates to pre-trib because I hear so many saying "I'm glad I won't be here to deal with that", "I might not be able to handle that". So if we don't need to be raptured away, and therefore withstand the suffering, we will be rewarded beyond measure. Any pre-tribbers out there that can comment on this? Wendy | ||
| Sherry2 |
Personally, I find the pre-trib idea a little scary because I fear people may end up in their own Great Disappointment if it doesn't happen that way. Now the church I formally was a member of (SDA) already had theirs back in 1844, I'm not inclined to become part of the second...if there is one....those are my thoughts on it. All in all, I've got my confidence based on the right thing this time - Jesus and His righteousness that covers me, and I have got FAR less fear then I had as SDA and for that I am thankful. |
