| Author | Message | ||
| Graceambassador |
Hi Colleen: Great statement: "Fellowship, I've come to realize, is what happens when you allow the Holy Spirit to actively live in you and to reveal truth. A born again Christian recognizes the Spirit in other Chritians, and it is the Holy Spirit who binds the unlikeliest people together in cloeseness and communion that has nothing whatsoever to do with doctrines, shared social experiences, or background. It is the same as Paul said in Ephesians 4:3 continued at Ephesians 4:13 and final versers. When one recognizes the Spirit of Christ in another's life, then as that Spirit unity is maintained, THE UNITY OF FAITH will be natural. In Adventism, as Maryann pointed out, it seems that neither is true. People do not identify with others spiritually, therefore it is okay to believe diferently and doctrine becomes a case by case basis doctrine. Thus, there is no UNITY OF FAITH. It is impossible! None of us espouses a system where people do not have the liberty to think for themselves. This is NOT the point here. This would be the characteristic of a cult! But another characteristic of a cult is a TOTAL LACK OF COMMITMENT with a common set of beliefs where I adapt whatever is taught to my own convenience. It is so in Spiritualism, which is demonic, with Buddism and etc.. It was the techinic used by the Devil in Luke 4: The Devil basically said: "Why Mr. Jesus don't you apply the word of God to your own needs and conveniences RIGHT NOW! If this is not like the tower of Babel, than I do not know what is! Such monument was never completed because of confusion. They could not understand each other since each one spoke their individual language. You can change "language" with set of beliefs in the case of the SDA. Perhaps this is God's providence. The confudion is an act of His sovereign will to bring the demise of what is left in Adventism! Just as he did to the builders of the tower of Babel! What a contrast with Christ who is not only the AUTHOR but the FINISHER of our faith. Grace Ambassador | ||
| Doug |
Colleen--Ditto on your statement, "A born again Christian recognizes the Spirit in other Christians, and it is the Holy Spirit who binds the unlikeliest people together in closeness and communion that has nothing whatsoever to do with doctrines, shared social experiences, or background." At work, there is an orthodox Coptic (Egyptian) co-worker and he and I instantly recognized each other as Spirit filled Christians. We have had a wonderful time building a friendship and sharing the unbelievable gift of Grace. He was raised in Cairo and I here, but we share a deep sense of community and faith that could only have been brought about by the Holy Spirit. As an Adventist, I would never have recognized him or vice versa. In fact, I would never have taken the time to find out what an orthodox Coptic believes and just assumed that he was misled just like Greek orthodox and Catholics, etc. I think one of the most damaging aspects of Adventism is that it promotes a unique arrogance and intolerance of any other Christian group to the point that and Adventist won't even take the time to discover the richness that another culture can add. There is a Coptic Orthodox monastery way out in the desert past Barstow. He tells me that spending a couple of days out there is an incredible experience. I am thinking about going with him later this summer. He is going to come with me to the Harvest crusade next weekend. Praise God for the glorious freedom of Grace and the diversity he brings to His people. I believe that we will all be surprised by the tremendous diversity the gospel of Grace encompasses. | ||
| Breezy |
Hi guys! One thing I would like to briefly address cause the kids are callin'. I do not fellowship with a denomination. In fact, I deliberately avoid the denomination. I fellowship with a group of believers that happens to be SDA. Now just because some within the denomination teach erroneous doctrine and misapply certain things,does not mean that SDAism is wrong. I have not had the same experiences as most here, therefore Adventism for me is not false. What some teach is false. The belief system is not wrong as is taught by those I fellowship with. So therefore,unlike some or most here, I have no need to search out another belief system or congregation. That's just the nuts and bolts of it. Maryann. If parents are teaching their children about the Sabbath in a way that requires a don't do this or that adherence, then they are just wrong period. The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. I remove myself and my kids from our everyday life and deliberately plan things that will engage them in spiritually uplifting activities,that will direct their minds to God's glorious being and creation. I do not say we can do this or we can't do that. It is possible. I started out with the can/can't mindset and drew back in horror when I realized what I was doing. The Sabbath can be set aside for God without "keeping"it in the popularly believed way. I don't believe God intended it that way, and I don't believe that we should be keeping it like the pharisees. I slip sometimes in my views but God always brings me back to the true meaning of the Sabbath. It is rest in Him. And that is the special day that I set aside for Him, in addition to resting in Him every day. Well, it wasn't brief, but I hope it helps! Wendy | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Wendy, You said: "I remove myself and my kids from our everyday life and deliberately plan things that will engage them in spiritually uplifting activities,that will direct their minds to God's glorious being and creation." That's a wonderful thing to do BUT, wouldn't God's puzzled look be quickly removed from His face is you were directing their minds on God's special day to his glorious sacrifice an His RE-creation?! Why are you so hung up on creation when there is RE-creation?! This is why the SABBATH rest to me is so special. I am resting from MY OWN WORKS and basking in the "glorious sacrifice and RE-creation that was done for ME, a sinner, "EVERYDAY". And praise His sacrifice and RE-creation every single day from the day you RECEIVE YOUR FREE salvation till eternity ends. (and eternity NEVER ends!) You said: "I started out with the can/can't mindset and drew back in horror when I realized what I was doing. The Sabbath can be set aside for God without "keeping"it in the popularly believed way." I'm glad you stopped and looked at what you were doing!;-)) Please continue to LOOK! Could you please explain something that has plagued me for ever: Where are the guidelines you get your current SABBATH KEEPING principles from? Are they yours? Are they from the Bible? If they are from the Bible, what chapter and verse(s)? If they are from the Bible, how are you able to apply them to todays times. If todays times are different from yesteryears times and the Sabbath is kept differently now than then, how are YOUR children going to keep the Sabbath with their children. Times are changing very rapidly. (the only UN-acceptable answer to the last question is that Jesus will come before your kids have kids! I didn't get a formal education past 2nd grade because Jesus was coming so soon. You know the sign's of the end and all that! That's why I don't have a prestigious SDA education and am a simple, lowly construction worker!) Upward and onward..........Maryann PS...I just can't imagine myself being a doctor or nurse;-)) | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Wendy, Oops! I forgot one! You said: "Now just because some within the denomination teach erroneous doctrine and misapply certain things,does not mean that SDAism is wrong." Before you answer this one, will you go look at the back of your baptismal certificate and the 27 fundamental doctrines and tell me if you agree with ALL points? If you do? How? If you don't, why are you still there. Also, do you ever remember any of the baptism's in the Bible calling all the "members" together to vote a new candidate in? Wow! Can you imagine the time it would have taken to baptize and vote in ALL the new converts in when they had some of those mass baptisms? Hey, I got packing to do;-((........Maryann | ||
| Graceambassador |
Hi Wendy! I've learned to like you and respect you in this forum. I wish I had another venue to offer you some unsolicited advice, however this is the only one God affords me at this point for such purpose. So, please, consider the following: When you say: I do not fellowship with a denomination. In fact, I deliberately avoid the denomination. I fellowship with a group of believers that happens to be SDA. Now just because some within the denomination teach erroneous doctrine and misapply certain things,does not mean that SDAism is wrong. I have not had the same experiences as most here, therefore Adventism for me is not false. What some teach is false. The belief system is not wrong as is taught by those I fellowship with. So therefore,unlike some or most here, I have no need to search out another belief system or congregation... ...I then ask you Is it not the case that you find a certain degree of security in SDAism? Could it be that you want to be out but not completly, rather, want to be in just enough, in case you find yourself in error and not them? Is it because you find a safety valve and security in SDAism? (I am trying not to use the word CRUTCH!) When you say that SDAism is not error or false, but at the same time "teach erroneous doctrines and misapply certain things" is this not a contradiction in and of itself. How can something not be false, but allow falsehood? Can out of the same fountain come fresh and salty water? Can a tree produce orange and apples? Can a tree produce good fruit and poisonous fruit? (These questions are fair Biblical questions by the way). Your statement "Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath" is totally contraty to the core teachings of your church! They will explain away this verse every possible way they can! You are right and they are wrong! Then, how come you are capable of explaining your different point of view? Could be pride? You just love being there and being accepted there and that settles it? I'M NOT JUDGING, I'M ASKING YOU! You do not have to answer to me! Answer to yourself and then God! Or just ignore what I said! The mormons use the same tactics. Ask a married mormon if he believes in a special type of underwear. They'll say, well... this is the belief of hard core mormons... I do not practice such a thing! Ask if the believe that they are producing "gods" when having relations with their spouses. They will say... I don't think my church teaches exactly that... Ask about the baptism of the dead... Many will not even know that their church teaches that. My point above is: IN MATTERS OF FAITH, IT IS NOT WHAT ONE DOES NOT BELIEVE FROM AND AGREE WITH A DENOMINATION OR GROUP THAT IS DAMAGING AND DANGEROUS TO THEM. IT IS MOSTLY THE PORTION THAT THEY DO BELIEVE AND AGREE WITH THEM Using the example above: The mormon says that Jesus is a lesser god, the son of a sexual relation between God and Mary... or whatever woman... They also say that Jesus is the Savior. When a mormom tells me that Jesus is the Savior I refuse to agree! Crazy? No. I disagree because their "savior" is a created God, a lesser god... So, it would be very damaging to me to say that I agree with them that Jesus is the savior because "savior" is not the same thing for both of us! What would hurt me is NOT WHAT I DISAGREE WITH THEM, BUT WHAT I WOULD FEEL ENTICED TO AGREEING WITH THEM JUST BECAUSE IT MAKES APPARENT SENSE WITH MY OWN BELIEFS, THUS GIVING ME A SENSE THAT THERE IS A POINT OF AGREEMENT, AND THAT I CAN BE ACCEPTED AND SOMEWHAT ACCEPT THEM! Sort of complicated but I am sure you will understand. Well, this begs the question: WHAT DO YOU AGREE WITH SDA? Let me know, if you think it is worth! By the way, let ALL this forum know and publish it here! Again, this is just a suggestion. Before the Lord: there is no mean-spirit in my words. Grace Ambassador | ||
| Doug |
Wendy, Praise God that you have found a group of people that you can fellowship with in a meaningful way. However, I think you need to address the issue of intellectual honesty. You may have a group of people who avoid the "erroneous" doctrine, but the reality is this erroneous doctrine is promoted by the corporate body of SDAs--i.e., these doctrines are the official position of the SDA church. If your group chooses to fellowship in a way that is not in alignment with the official doctrine, then you are not a true Adventist and would be thoroughly chastised by a conservative hard-line official (were they aware of what you really thought). Many pastors and teachers have been stripped of their credentials for preaching grace. At some level, a person must accept, point blank, the complete teachings of the Adventist church to move to a higher level of SDA leadership, even if s/he believes some of these doctrines to be erroneous. I believe many Adventists are simply unaware of the controversies and cover-ups by the corporate leadership to protect the official turf. As long as you move in a (don't take this the wrong way) circle of lower influence and continue to pay tithe, some aberrant behavior is tolerated. Say something publicly that is contrary to the official position, especially if you are in a position of influence, and you're in big trouble. Many of the people on this forum have been in situations or know first hand of the strong-arm tactics used by the official Church to protect its position. At some point, those in leadership positions or those who have really studied all the realities of the Adventist heritage become aware of all the issues. They must make a choice. Some have decided to compromise their integrity in an effort to change the Church from the inside out (though I am not sure this is possible and have strong reservations about this tactic). Others make the painful transition out of the Church or are asked to leave. Bottom-line: You may feel that you have found a way to practice your Adventism in a way that gives you comfort, but you are not in line with official Adventism. That is intellectual dishonesty at best and apostasy (strictly from an official Adventist perspective) at worst. You are caught in position that, over a long time, will become untenable and horribly difficult to live with. You cannot stand still. You are either moving forward or backwards. I praise God for your willingness to share and participate in this forum and pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you to the fullness and freedom of Christ's Grace. I am sorry if I sound a little rough, but understand you have put yourself in a position that is neither hot or cold. But I believe the Holy Spirit is leading you and I hope you will continue to search for honest solution that will give you the freedom God has set aside for you. We really do love you and can relate completely because most of us have been there. No matter what, we'll keep praying for you. | ||
| Breezy |
Hi guys, Really busy so I will read these more completely later tonight. But in the meantime let me give you just one of my thoughts recently gnawing away at my brain. I believe people like me will be persecuted by the main body of believers. I believe that the main body of the church has apostasized even tho' they might claim I am in apostasy. Ellen spoke of a remnant within the remant who would be following the true gospel the way the Bible preaches it. And the rest of the church membership would turn against these brethren because they could not withstand the straight truth. Now, I know this will spark a whole new discussion but I believe it relates in some way. If you look at how the SDA church is persecuting Hope International right now you will see what I mean. Whether you agree with HI or not, they serve as a great example of what the church does to those who do not fall in line. I do not believe that you all understood what I meant by erroneous doctrine. I still hold with the beliefs of the church-as originally stated at the beginning of the church. What is erroneous is the way these doctrines have been used and changed to become a form of bondage that imprisons people within this belief system. So therefore maybe I should start my own church that is more descriptive of what I believe. Or my own study group or whatever. But until that time(and even then) I will function as a Seventh-day Adventist the way it was intended. Not the monster it has become. You know I always try to write short notes because I've got so much going on. Somehow it never works out. :) No hard feelings anyone. Once in awhile I take things too personally. Has something to do with the moon. Wendy P.S. Maryann, Very sad about your education. I've felt that "time is so short" thing and resisted it.I will answer your questions in detail tonight. :)happy packing!:) | ||
| Billtwisse |
ALL: I can't express enough admiration of the courage and convictions of our dear brother Milt. My friend, you are so full of the Holy Spirit that it amazes me every I read what you have to say! By the way, I forgot to express that I'm 100% in agreement of your interpretation regarding the 'spirituals.' You probably remember this from our discussions elsewhere but it is always good to experience sound interpretaion anew! I do believe that most Pentecostals (which label I do not wear, nor do I practice glossolalia) emphasize a certain form of tongues to the extreme and ignore the real meaning of the other gifts. But that is a whole different discussion. Wendy, let me emphasize that my equation of Adventism = sin refers to the institution. I am not talking about those Christians within the institution who believe the true gospel. The institution itself, however, is an administration of death. God appointed one 'ministration of death' by design (2 Cor. 3:7-11). But since the cross we are in the age of Pentecost. He will not sanction any such imitation of the old order as something that pleases him. It is an abomination and it deceives souls. I can either love the souls of Adventists or their institutional system--but not both. Almost daily, I see evidence of how Adventism is destroying the eternal souls of many relatives and friends. Note this point: many of them are no longer in the institution. But they are still enslaved to false idealogy of the institution, to the point that knowing the gospel is impossible. D.M. Canright had a lot to say about this syndrome. Even my liberal friends who left Adventism years ago are still slaves to the doctrine of the God-given ability of man to choose what is right--which fundamental is left over from a lifetime of SDA influence on their thinking. If you believe that idea, you cannot see the gospel. Milton already responded to the very words I had cut out of your post and intended to respond to: "I do not fellowship with a denomination. In fact, I deliberately avoid the denomination. I fellowship with a group of believers that happens to be SDA. Now just because some within the denomination teach erroneous doctrine and misapply certain things, does not mean that SDAism is wrong. I have not had the same experiences as most here, therefore Adventism for me is not false. What some teach is false. The belief system is not wrong as is taught by those I fellowship with." I'll let Milton's comments stand on their own. For me, this . . . well, I'll leave it to others. In order to have true love for the souls of Adventists, the majority of which are lost, picture the lost ones in the darkness of hell where they are going for eternity, unless they believe the gospel. --Twisse | ||
| Breezy |
Oh Brother! And they would say the same about you Bill. Who is right? You prove your stuff by the Bible no better or worse than the Adventists. I am sorry but in both cases it is the pot calling the kettle black. I am getting tired of everyone thinking they are right, everyone else is wrong, and the other is going to burn because of it. No one knows this but God. I hope that you don't find out that you were wrong, having "felt"so right about it. Satan is a great deceiver, it's in his job description. It will just be interesting to find out who was truly deceived. Wendy | ||
| Graceambassador |
Hi Wendy: You charged: and the other is going to burn because of it. I wanted to apologize for having said that, but I searched my writings and could not find one instance where I said such a thing. I don't think this should become an argument. The liberal theologians and the Democrats (note starts with DEM, just like "demon") use the same argument, i.e., that "No one knows this but God" (your words). They say that ignoring that God has already spoken in His word! I believe the point here is that, specially in my case, I just wanted to know why you say that your denomination teaches "erroneous doctrine" and "misapply certain things" and you still remain in it. I used your own words! Apparently, as per your statement, you ALSO know who is wrong here! Since God only knows who is wrong, according to your words, and you say your denomination is wrong, I wonder if you are DEIFYING yourself, or making you equal to God! I understand, however, your outrage and sarcasm! ("sark" in Greek= flesh. "asm" is a suffix for a sudden movement. Hence, "sarcasm" is a sudden movement of the flesh) Please, there is no need to be upset with the only people who is trying to help. You would not get any help from those other same-like-minded adventists group as you find here. Now, if you are upset with the fact that Bill and I agree in many things, and express it openly, find comfort in knowing that there are somethings that we do not agree on. It is a TRAIT of religion to expect people to disagree and in fact CAUSE them to disagree. Divide to rule is the idea! So in this case I am glad to oblige and satisfy you revealing to you that Bill and I do disagree in some points! I hope this makes you feel better! (Now I am having a sudden movement of the flesh...) As for me and my house, we will continue to teach God's word! In Love Grace Ambassador | ||
| Loneviking |
Breezy, I'll just second what Doug said about your position becoming eventually untenable and horrible difficult. I've fellowshipped with a tiny group of folks who call themselves 'SDA'--their tiny church is recognized by the local conference. However, most of the folks in this church are hybrids---from dual faith backgrounds and they don't agree with the 27 Fundamentals. The other churches in the area know this and won't have anything to do with the church, nor will they help it in any way. And so, this odd little church that calls itself 'SDA', even though its' members by and large don't agree with the 27 Fundamentals, finds itself in the position of 'odd man out'. The result is, that after eight years the church is dying. I doubt that it will be in existence in another two years. I hope your church doesn't wind up this way, Wendy, but don't be surprised if it does. A square peg won't fit in a round hole and eventually gets tossed aside. When the church closes, these folks will have a choice to make. Some have made it already and have taken their names off the books. Others, like me, have a second church family and are ready to bail out at any time. What will you do Wendy? | ||
| Breezy |
Grace Ambassador, Bill Twisse, not you. Read the end of his post above. Wendy | ||
| Breezy |
Lone Viking, If that ever were to occur, I would form a small group of like minded people in my home that could meet together to edify each other and provide christian fellowship. Whether or not it was connected to any denomination. Grace Ambassador, Slightly hostile for my tone and taste. I'm sure you don't mean to come across that way. I did not say or mean that only God knows whatever you implied. I said that only God knows who is saved and who is right and who is wrong. Certainly in no way intended to deify myself. That is a little extreme and certainly unfair. Hey I started a new thread. Let me know what you guys think. Wendy | ||
| Bmorgan |
Greetings All, I should post this under another thread, but, I feel comfortable stating what I have to say here. I am one of those crawling out from under the SDA shackles that kept me in slavery for many years. What I say may or may not be in agreement with members of this forum. I speak not with a spirit of contention but from experience. 2 Cor 10:3-5: "For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ." A stronghold is anything we hold onto that ends up holding us; pet peeves, lies, unhealthy relations, etc.. We create them for protection. Our insecurity and pride play a major role keeping us so blind and entangled, that we rationalize and excuse the things we do or refuse to do. To me, Adventism is a stronghold that have kept and keeps many innocent christians in the shackles of slavery (sin)and religous bondage. Many people think they have too much to loose: Identity, spiritual and biblical knowledge and superiority. (more enlighted about health, education and prophecy) relatives and friends, doctrines held as pet and considered rock solid -Sabbath, and the years of investment in time, talent, resources etc. They cannot give it up. Their salvation, becomes a Do-It-Yourself process. To me, this is idolatry/sin. Anything we exalt over God in our thoughts or imaginations is an idol. It is sin, for it cheats us out of what God has for us. I feel sad that many adventists truely CANNOT enjoy the depth of living in grace through the power of the Holy Spirit and the love of God which produces a life changing reality as we fellowship with Christ daily. Oh, how much I missed over the years as I struggled restlessly doing holy fun things on Saturdays. I understand the joy and fellowship with other believers that so many of you mentioned. Bill Twisse, sometime ago you said, adventism is a small part of the equation (not quoting verbatim), and it damages the life sometimes beyond repair, you are right to great degree. SDAism can become an idol (high place) even to us who have left. It can outgrows thoughts of God as we focus too much about its ills. We -Formers- can become so absorbed trying to give cognitive, logical, intellectual arguments to the "purposefully" blind. We become weary, wary, get nowhere but become bogged down by mundane explanation (godless chatter). Our gracious God, who is the one active in our salvation will accomplish HIS purpose. EACH one of us matters to God! Praise His name. I am glad for the many in adventism, who are seeking a place of fellowship, can find comfort here. I praise God for you all. BMorgan ps. GA, any confusion understanding my post is due to MY accent, and it is not Brazilian. | ||
| Graceambassador |
Wendy: I am not paid to defend anybody and certainly I do not feel that I should defend myself, but Bill uses words such as "majority". It is different than "all". Also he says that "they are going to hell unless they believe the gospel". I hope you agree with me and him that those who do not believe the gospel are hell-bound! As to my hostile tone... Hummm! I said it, I was having a "sudden movement of flesh" (sark-asm). So much for unrewarded honesty! Byt the way, between the POT and the KETTLE, I think I am the kettle: WHEN I'M BOILING HOT I JUST LET UP STEAM BY WHISTLING IT AWAY!!! (I do not feel that you called me one or the other, I just could not resist the open window to dispose of a thought that came to my mind when I read your post. Humor is a good way to reduce tension even if it is not funny!) Grace Ambassador | ||
| Graceambassador |
BMorgan: Your post is clear! You see, I am famous for being Pentecostal and I do not wish anybody thinking that I am posting IN TONGUES!!! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Bmorgan |
Uncle Milt, I take the liberty to address you as such. Thanks for your response. I enjoy your humor and profound ability to be lighthearted at appropriate moments. I appreciate your presence on this forum. It is one thing to intellectually understand grace but a different kettle of fish to experience it in the life. Grace and Peace to you. | ||
| Breezy |
Uncle Milt, Okay! I'll just give you a big e-smile and e-hug and call it good. K? BMorgan, That was a very insightful post and pertinent. There are pitfalls everywhere. In and out of Adventism. I too am happy to be able to fellowship here regardless of my beliefs. Wendy | ||
| Maryann |
Kettle of fish.........EeeeeeeeYuuuuuuuuuuuuuK!;-(( I jus gots ta thanx alya for the really neat post's that keep forcing me back to my 'puter!;-) With the up-side-down-ness in my life at the moment, this forum has been a bandaid to my soul. I just simply don't have the time to even turn on the 'puter with what I have to do in the next 12 days. BUT I DO! Thank you........Maryann |
