| Author | Message | ||
| Breezy |
Hi guys, I just ran across this verse and it seems to have alot to do with the law. I would like to get your interpretations of this. For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Romans 2:13 Wendy | ||
| Larimobley |
Dear Wendy, Okay, I'll take a stab at it. While I'm not a Biblical scholar by any means, I have read and struggled with Romans several times lately. First of all, I think it's important to look at the book as a whole. Paul starts out by explaining the law, and its relationship to both Jews and Gentiles. At first, the book is very depressing to me! It explains how we all (Jew and Gentile) are condemned by not keeping the law (Romans 1-2). But keep reading...it gets even more depressing before it gets better. In Romans 3:20 Paul writes (NLV): "For no one can ever be made right in God's sight by doing what his law commands. For the more we know God's law, the clearer it becomes that we aren't obeying it." Now I'm pretty depressed, but then Paul gets into the meat of the book. Romans 3:21-22 says, "But now God has shown us a different way of being right in his sight--not by obeying the law but by the way promised in the Scriptures long ago. We are made right in God's sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, no matter who we are or what we have done." This entire section is great reading, but I think verses 27-28 are particularly relevant, "Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds. It is based on our faith. We are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law." Paul echoes this in Galatians 3:5: "I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law of Moses? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ." And further on in Galatians 3:19: "Well then, why was the law given? It was given to show people how guilty they are. But this system of law was to last only until the coming of the child to whom God's promise was made." And Galatians 3:21-23: "Well then, is there a conflict between God's law the God's promises? Absolutely not! If the law could have given us new life, we could have been made right with God by obeying it. But the Scriptures have declared that we are all prisoners of sin, so the only way to receive God's promises is to believe in Jesus Christ. Until faith in Christ was shown to us as the way of becoming right with God, we were guarded by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until we could put our faith in the coming Savior." Forgive the "Bible drill," but I find it helpful to look at other writings by Paul where he talks about the law to help us interpret Romans 2:13. Let me finish by quoting Romans 3:20 again, this time in the NKJ version: "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Sounds like Paul's contradicting 2:13 doesn't it. First he writes that the doers of the law shall be justified, and then he writes that no flesh will be justified by the deeds of the law. This is why it's important to read the entire book. I think that Paul is making a point. Yes, if Jews had kept the law they were given, and Gentiles the law they knew in their hearts, they could have been justified. But none of us--Jew or Gentile--can. Praise God for Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the law. I'd be interested in everyone's comments, rebuttals, etc. Try to be kind, though--I've only been going to church and studying the Bible again for about a year, and only posting in the forum for a few weeks :) In His grace, Lari | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Lari, That was great, BUT, the thing that the SDA's say to that is: "Yes! Yes! I agree! But the law Paul is talking about is the laws hanging on the outside of the ARK! That is NOT talking about the 10C, they are alive and well in the ARK in heaven!" This is what frustrates me nearly to tears! Grrrrr! This is where I get stuck in defending my faith! Can you come up with a SIMPLE Biblical study that shows that the law and the 10C are the same? That is something that Wendy would like to see also (I'll bet;-) Maryann | ||
| Breezy |
Lari, I'm curious as to why you didn't use the NKJ version in your first texts. I think to get the true meaning of something we shouldn't jump around from version to version to satisfy our desire to make the Bible fit. I think it is more consistent to use the same version when working on one study. I believe Paul is saying that we need to keep the law, it just is not what saves us. Only Christ's sacrifice can do that. I believe that when the Bible states "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me", it means me also. That includes keeping the law. What has always confused me is that people think that God would deliberately set them up for failure. What kind of God would dangle a carrot(The Law) in front of our faces and tell us to keep it if to do so were impossible. I don't want that kind of God. This has been Satan's ploy from the beginning. It is impossible to keep God's law. Why? Do you think that Enoch would have been chosen to walk with God if he were not keeping the law. Just because it doesn't happen often, doesn't mean it has never happened. Straight is the path and narrow the gate and FEW there be that enter in. No one said it would be easy, but through the Holy Spirit living in us we can do it. Not of our power, but of His. There will not be many of the billions of people who have inhabited this planet that will be in Heaven. The Bible tells me so. It is always easy to go with the crowd, the popular beliefs. It is far more difficult to hold your position when all around you winds of doctrine are blowing, and blowing... Maryann, you are frustrated because you cannot defend this point. How long are you going to look for a defense before you admit to yourself that the position is wrong? If you cannot defend your faith from the Bible, that is no better than those SDA's that only defend their positions from EGWhite's writings. We have to be able to defend our faith from the Bible and the Bible alone. Wendy | ||
| Delstar |
There is no 'defense' for this verse. Notice the parenthesis around this statement. Paul is speaking, in my estimation, to those people who are 'trying to keep the law'. He's speaking of our judgement of others according to the law... then he goes on to talk about how life is with the law....that they shall be judged by the same law with which they judge others. Within the parenthesis, I see him saying 'Hey listen, you people who are doing the same things of which you are judging others....don't you realize that it's not enough to just hear the law and know what it says if you are going to be saved by keeping the law? You have to DO what it says also. Then he goes on later in the book to explain that this is not where we place our trust...in 'doing the law' but our trust is strictly in Christ Jesus. Did I make sense? Jesus Is Enough | ||
| Larimobley |
Dear Wendy, Good question about the Bible versions. I used the NLV at first because my husband was busy using the NKJ for his post. Then I was able to wrestle it away from him. I thought re-quoting the verse again in the translation you used would help us see the parallels. Didn't want to go and re-type all my verses though. Hope that's okay! I think the message is clear in both translations, but feel free to look up the verses I quoted in the NLV in whatever translation you feel comfortable with (hopefully not the Clear Word :)). Regarding your comment that: "What kind of God would dangle a carrot (The Law) in front of our faces and tell us to keep it if to do so were impossible." Keep reading Romans. Read it over and over again if you need to. Your answer is there. Ask the Holy Spirit for guidance. Regarding your comment that: "I don't want that kind of God." Here I can really relate to you. There have been many times when the God I read about in the Bible was not the God I wanted Him to be. How could He, for example, make hell an eternal, everlasting punishment. I don't like to believe this, but it's clearly written that way. I could give you more examples, but I'll just conclude with what I've experienced about God by reading Job. I really relate to Job, and all his questions for God. But what absolutely stunned me when I re-read Job this year was his response AFTER God questioned him. Job says to God (NKJ version this time, hubby's not using it): "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:5-6) Job was just like me and had a lot of questions for God and just exactly how He was doing things here on Earth. But after seeing God firsthand and hearing His voice, Job "repented in dust and ashes." And God never did answer his questions. But Job repented nevertheless. I'm learning to let God be God and not try to fit Him into my mold of how He should be. This is difficult. I read Job 42:5-6 a lot. In His grace, Lari | ||
| Larimobley |
Dear Delstar, Did you make sense? Yes! Thank you. You answered the question I was wrestling with. Those attempting to judge others with the law weren't even keeping it themselves. And if that's how we want to be justified, we have to keep it. I'll take Jesus, thank you very much! In His grace, Lari | ||
| Colleentinker |
Maryann, One clear fact that shows that the 10 Commandments were all part of the Mosaic law and were temporary (see Gal. 3) is the actual Most Holy Place and the ark. In the Old Covenant, the ark was inside the Most Holy Place inside the tabernacle. All these were in the center of the Israelite camp (or the city of Jerusalem), but they were OUTSIDE the people. When Jesus died the temple veil ripped between the Holy and the Most Holy places, exposing the sacred compartment to every passing eye. The purpose of this rip was clear; God's presence and the presence of the law were no longer accessible only to the High Priest once a year. In fact, that holy of holies was no longer holy at all. After Jesus died there was nothing sacred in or about that temple. The Spirit of God had left it, and the torn curtain showed that God no longer considered it holy or his dwelling place. After Jesus' resurrection the Holy Spirit took residence in his new temple, the human heart. The hearts of believers replaced the external temple. Where God's presence had been outside the people and resting in/on the tabernacle, it now indwelt each Christ-follower. No longer was a temple building necessary. God's presence was inside people, and the Law was now written on their hearts. The Holy Spirit, the Living Law, now resided inside the temple of human hearts. The Law that lives in Christians is neither the laws written and stored on the outside of the ark nor the 10 commandments written on stone and stored inside the ark. Those are completely gone. God himself replaced those commandments and that Old Covenant law. The living Law, God, lives in us and informs every decision and thought we submit to him. Just as the temple ceremonies, the sacrifices, and the temple itself represented and were shadows of Christ, so the tangible Lawóboth human-hand-written and God's-hand-writtenówere shadows of Jesus. He is the fulfillment of the entire Old Covenant, even the law. Nothing about the 10 Commandments or the accompanying laws was eternal or permanent. They didn't come into existence until 430 years after Abraham, and it lasted only until the Seed, Jesus, came. (See Galatians 3&4) The 10 Commandments were as much a shadow of God's reality as the lambs and bulls were shadows of Jesus' death. I praise God for reality and for revealing it! Colleen | ||
| Breezy |
Colleen, Even if you have it written in your heart, aren't you still keeping it? Doesn't it just become a non-burden because Christ took that burden for us? It is still being kept, just not through our efforts. Wendy | ||
| Billthompson |
Wendy, Isn't your total concern "What about the Sabbath?" I am sure this is where the struggle is for those of us raised in the SDA church. "How do we resolve the message of the Gospel with our preconcieved ideas about the Sabbath?" It seems Paul was constantly struggling with Jews who wanted to require the new Gentile believers to follow all the law in addition to professing faith in Christ. This seems very similar to what we face with SDAs and other Christians. Paul was frustrated with the Judiazers throughout his ministry because they sought to take new believers and put them under the bondage of the law. Study the entire book of Romans and then the entire book of Galatians and this will become abundantly clear. The great thing about the law is the fact that it makes us see our need for a Savior because it is impossible to keep every aspect of the letter of the law. As you get to chapters 4 and 5 of Roamans you'll see the problems they were having trying to mix Jewish Christians with Gentile Christains. Some thinking they couldn't eat this or that while others had no problem with these things. Some wanting to treat certain days as holy while others treated every day alike. Paul seemed to think these things were unimportant and not worth breaking fellowship over. He urged them not to judge each over these disputable matters. I will not, therefore, judge you over these disputable matters and I pray you will follow the same advice. Wendy, you have said on this forum before that the Sabbath is not a salvation issue and it is clear, if from no other evidence thn the archives at this site, that the Sabbath certainly fits into the category of "disputable matters". In fact, it is the number one "disputable matter" for SDAs. In Christ Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Darrell |
As an Advintist I used to think that the 10 Commandments were the ultimate expression of God's character, but after studying the words of Jesus, especially in Matthew 5 and John 14, I can no longer except that view. Jesus Himself is the ultimate revelation of God's character, as He said to Philip in John 14: "If you have seen me you have seen the father." In Matthew 5 Jesus took several examples from the law, some from the 10 commandments, some not, and showed how they were inadequate to produce righteousnessness, because they only focused on the externals, not on the heart. The law written on the heart, as Colleen was saying, goes far beyond the 10 commandments, but it does encompass all the principles behind the 10 commandments, and especially the principles in the 2 great commandments. Wendy, the question Adventists (myself included) need to grapple with is what is the principle behind the Sabbath commandment. | ||
| Maryann |
Thank you Colleen! Wendy, I said that I get frustrated because I can't defend my faith. That is true:-(( BUT it's NOT because it is not possible, it's because I'm not able to study everything at the same time. I wish I could! Grrrrrrrrrrrrr Let me explain. 3 or 4 years ago Mom got hung up in the "word Faith Name It Claim It" stuff. I studied like a maniac to try to understand enough to blast that out of her head!;-) About the time I was going to present the "blast" to her, I found out that my husband had deliberately concealed what he had secretly believed for 12 years of marriage and that is the "Jesus Only, Oneness, Non-Trinitaraian, Ultra-Ultra Legalistic Penticostalism". He went back into this almost 2 years ago. I tried to study that too! When I presented the "blast" to Mom, it worked. Only it worked to well. She went back into SDAism after a 20+ year "Sabbatical" (humph, that's funny). The Mormons then decended in force and I was forced to check them out too. All this time I was working up to 70+ hours a week on my regular job! Then I got cancer. Now I'm moving! AND..........the JWs just left my door a few minutes ago!! Grrrrrrrrrrrr. By rights, I should be out of my ever loving mind! Sooooooooooo, my next to projects will be to study the Law-10C and the nature of Christ. I can understand these things in my head, BUT, I just can't latch onto the verses etc. That just takes time to learn all that. Once I'm moved and settled a bit, LOOOOOOOOOOK OUT!;-)) As Colleen just showed, it CAN be defended!:-)) What was funny about the JWs that just left was that I was a bit short with them and answered them as best as I could and they just kept it going. Anyway, one of the guys was a co-worked of mine in the 80s! I couldn't quite place him and him me. Finally, he asked if I worked at the Nev. Test Site and I instantly placed him. I got his address and plan to write him at some time. He is a convert just since 1994. Gotta hit the grinding wheel........Maryann | ||
| Billthompson |
Maryann, I use the same gospel focus when talking to Mormons and JWs. I ask my three basic questions and stay with those questions until we reach agreement. They have always left me alone pretty quickly when I do this. That was not my intention, I wanted them to see the beauty of the Gospel message, but they run from this focus. Again, here are the three questions, don't leave home without them ;) --What you are trusting in for salvation. --Did the blood of Jesus cover just your past sins or ALL your sins? --Do you have a firm assurance of salvation? Bill Thompson | ||
| Dale |
Great discussion! As an SDA, I always believed that the 10C was God's moral law and that the rest of the Mosaic law was ceremonial in nature. I think this is pretty standard SDA theology. This viewpoint assumes a clean distinction. However, the entire pentateuch, including the 10C contains a mixture of moral, civil, and ceremonial principles. In both the 4th and 10th commandments, there is reference to slaves, certainly not eternal, moral principles. In the 5th commandment there is a promise about land related specifically to Israel in Canaan (Exodus 20:8-17). The Sabbath itself was the "sign" of the Old Covenant with Israel (Ex 31:13). Conversely, the two greatest commandments, later quoted by Jesus, Love God with all your heart, soul, and strength (Deut 6:5) and Love your neighbor as yourself (Lev 19:18) are found in that portion of the Mosaic law kept outside the ark of the covenant. Are these part of the ceremonial law that is no longer applicable even to SDAs? I can no longer support a distinction between the 10C as a moral law and the rest of the package as a ceremonial law. It is unbiblical in my view. The 10C are the old covenant that God made with Israel until the coming of the Seed. They were kept in the "ark of the covenant". The law later written in our hearts requires much more than what was written on tablets of stone. Instead of "thou shalt not kill" we are now told not to hate; instead of "thou shalt not commit adultery", we are told not to lust, and I could go on. It requires a lot more to act based upon principles than it does a written list of thou shalts and thou shalt nots. Darrell asked the question above, "what is the principle behind the sabbath commandment". Indeed this is a question that has occupied my mind, study and prayer for many months and has been the hardest issue for me since leaving SDAism. Based on my study, prayer, and guidance from the Holy Spirit, I have come to the conclusion that the sabbath commandment does not have a moral principle; it was a shadow of our Eternal Rest, Christ Jesus. It pointed forward to Jesus and to the sabbath like rest described in Hebrews 4 from creation that God longed to restore to His people. I would welcome any thought others may have on what the moral principle of the sabbath might be; perhaps there is one or more that I am missing. Now I can hear the familiar refrain from within SDAism (I have said it before myself), that since the very elect can be deceived, I have been deceived, I am now believing a lie about the law and the sabbath. I find it very unfortunate that this statement keeps getting applied to anyone that doesn't happen to agree with that person's point of view but I will save the editorial! I am still learning and appreciate the many thoughts expressed here and the differences of opinion. We can never cease to be "seekers of truth" out of fear of being deceived. That would indeed be the greatest deception of all. In Christ Alone, Dale | ||
| Sherry2 |
Yes, and when I started studying Leviticus and such for myself last month, I came to the conclusion that if you are going to keep Sabbath, you must keep all the Sabbaths...they are intricately linked together in Lev. and other spots of Scripture. They are either all fulfilled in Christ, or they are not. Seven is God's number period and I'm not sure if it's a reflection of perfection or perfect rest, but everything was done in sevens, the sprinkling of the blood, how many days you would be out of camp for certain sicknesses, Noah preparing seven days to get into the ark, sevens are all over the place. And sevens fell on many different days of the week too. That was a surprise to me. Anyhow, God bless all. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Dale, Great post! And Sherry, I agree with your analysis. Isn't it wonderful when we begin to see how deep and connected and symbolic and real the Bible is? Dale, I agree with you about the principle behind the Sabbath: it was only a symbolic shadow. It represented the eternal rest we re-find in Jesus. As you mentioned, that rest was in place at creation, and when Jesus died and solved the problem of sin, rose, and sent his Holy Spirit to us, that rest became ours again. And you're right; we can never cease to be seekers of truth. Colleen | ||
| Breezy |
Bill, No that was not my point. At all. Simply, as simply as I can, if the law-however you define it-is written on your heart, are you keeping or breaking it. WHY, is it impossible to keep the law. Because you have found it impossible. Or Colleen, or Maryann, or Dale? WHY? Answer this directly. Did Enoch become rewarded with walking with God by breaking God's law or keeping it. Next, answer this. Is God the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow? Or is He a different everchanging God? If your God is everchanging by changing from one covenant to the next, not flowing consistently from one millenia to the next, someone we can count on to be the same, who is your God? Because the Bible says that my God never changes. The Bible says that whoever detracts from the words of this Book, shall not inherit eternal life. If I am keeping God's laws through the power of the Holy Spirit, is this not better than breaking His laws, whichever you talk about? Do you not believe in the power of God, to enable your heart to perfectly keep His law even though you yourself cannot? MY GOD IS AN AWESOME GOD! HE REIGNS! IN HEAVEN AND EARTH, HE REIGNS! i CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH HIM WHO STRENTHENS me. You undercut my God and what He has promised in His word by saying that He is a liar and cannot perform the miracle of giving me,you, and everyone here the power to keep His everlasting precepts. Maybe your God is powerless to enable you. But mine is not. If my God is more powerful than yours, I ask again. WHO IS YOUR GOD? RESTING IN HIM, KEEPING HIS LAWS THROUGH GRACE ALONE AND BY HIS POWER ONLY I STAND, WENDY | ||
| Terry |
Wendy and Maryann, I have a website devoted to understanding all aspects of the Law, the Covenants, and Grace. Click on the link "Law" and you will find a great study! There is also some great reading at "Relevant readings" link. Enjoy! http://www.freedomforyou.com Terry | ||
| Terry |
Wendy, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Amen to that. However, He does change His methods. The Bible is clear on that. The Old Testament shows God doing things very differently than in the New. Furthermore, maybe God does change...The Trinity, at one time a little over 2000 thousand years ago, was pure spirit. Now one of them is flesh and blood! Study the covenants and you will see a huge difference in how God relates to His people. One covenant was stone tablets, one covenant was, and still is, Jesus. See Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; Isaiah 42:6 and Isaiah 49:8 Blessings to you, Terry | ||
| Breezy |
That is a complete contradiction. Only when we don't delve deeply into God's word does it look like He changes. He is the same. He will deal with the unrighteouss the same today as He did 4000 years ago. Watch and see. Wendy |
