| Author | Message | ||
| Chyna |
Wendy, God does change His ways. When everyone was godless and unrighteous except for Noah, then He wiped the entire earth out. But then He made a promise never to do that again (the sign, a rainbow). God did change His way of dealing with sin. He no longer wipes out the entire earth, even now when we are probably as depraved as they were in Noah's day. I mean look at the Romans! They descended into the utmost depravity, pederasty, and bestiality (sex with animals). In Ninevah, there is speculation that they were child-sacrificing. God told Adam and Eve that they would surely die if they ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. However, He didn't give them what they deserved: eternal death. He instead sent a Savior. It's never that the character of God changes. He does change His mind though. just like how He spared Adam and Eve in the garden even though He would have been totally Just to kill them there, He spared Ninevah. In fact Ninevah is a taste of Salvation. Jonah preached to them that they must repent, that God was intending to destroy them. However, Jonah was furious that God did not destroy the Ninevites. However, God spared them. Just like how He spares us, now. in Him, Chyna | ||
| Lydell |
Wendy, the 10 are not eternal. The wording of them indicates that they came after the fall. They did not exist before that, as the SDA's teach. The law was given 430 years after the covenant was made with Abraham. We will not keep a sabbath when "they count not time by years, and there is no night there". You say they never change. Then why was Namaan given permission to bow down to a graven image? In II Kings 5:15, 18, 19. Jehoiada participated in an armed insurrection on the Sabbath day. II Chron. 23:3-15 And let's not forget Hosea being told to marry a prostitute. Something that is "moral" will always be a moral thing to do no matter what the circumstances. Yet you yourself know of many folks who willingly work on the sabbath, mainly because they have the king's X of a job in the medical field. And the same folks would look down on the guy who is out there repairing the stop light, on the sabbath, that kept them from getting smashed in a car wreck! You asked: Did Enoch become rewarded with walking with God by breaking God's law or keeping it? I don't think it was a matter of law keeping at all. Rather it was a matter of Enoch's walk with God. He had a true honest to goodness relationship with God. It is in moment to moment relationship, learning to listen to the Holy Spirit's promptings that we are moved from attempting to keep 10 rules to instead living and moving in the spirit behind the rules. Finally, you also said: WHY, is it impossible to keep the law. Because you have found it impossible. It is statements like this that show us that you are relying on EGW's interpretation of scripture. You see Wendy, the Bible tells us clearly in Romans 3:10 "There is none perfect, no not one." So, no, it doesn't matter how hard you try, even with God's help, you will NOT be perfect. And if you don't keep the law perfectly, then you are condemned by the law. When we stand before the judgment seat, the question to be asked is NOT going to be did you keep the 10 commandments, or did you keep the sabbath. The only thing the Lord will look for is Christ's covering robe of righteousness over us. By the way, Maryann, I think the frustration that you feel in explaining your beliefs to SDA's is the same that all of us face. The scriptures are so plain, it takes people to make them complicated and confused. To untangle the confusion, to find that one beginning spot and straighten it out is a huge task. And the truth is that WE can't straighten it out really. It HAS to be a work of the Holy Spirit. He only uses us to plant little annoying seeds of thought that he uses over time to open peoples eyes to understand the simplicity of the gospel. Wendy, and other SDA's who are lurking here and reading, from now on will always be hearing things in there church that they never noticed before. The inconsistencies will become blatant, the scriptures that contradict EGW will begin to leap off the page whether they want to see them or not. You know how the Holy Spirit works. He has done it to you, right? | ||
| Lydell |
Hey, Bill, by the way, thanks again for that little niggling seed that you planted in me about the sabbath/sunday issue! Let's see, that would be like 4 years ago now. You're a blessing! | ||
| Breezy |
Chyna, God said He would never destroy the earth again with a flood. Not that He would never destroy the earth again! All these centuries that have past are simply leading up to the great day when Christ will destroy the earth with fire and create a new earth. Just because He has been so very patient all these years does not mean He has changed. He says I am a jealous and vengeful God. And very soon He will wreak His vengeance on all the earth. Very few will be spared. Any who teaches differently is promoting Satan's original great lie. "Ye surely shall not die". Wendy | ||
| Breezy |
Lydell, And Bill will be held accountable for planting that seed of doubt in your mind. No these things will not become more evident in my mind and others. Only those who are looking for an excuse to take the easy road will be allowed to find that which they seek. Allowed to believe a lie. As to the intretation of scripture? We'll see. I'm patient enough and willing enough to wait it out and see. If I am wrong we will find out won't we. Don't let that be your burden. I'm learning to let go of the burden to help you. Wendy | ||
| Sherry2 |
Circumcision is a changed ritual of God's, Wendy. No longer necessary. Yet so important to the covenant keeping process before that God pursued Moses to kill him. Enoch did have an awesome walk with God. One with which I hope we all desire more of. And yes, God rewarded Him, but yes, he could've never entered there if not the blood of Jesus had redeemed him. Look through the old testament on everlasting and eternal...you will find that the other celebrations you do not celebrate, like passover, day of atonement, etc. were to be eternal ordinances. | ||
| Susan |
Has any one mentioned animal sacrifices yet? Wasn't that a BIG requirement that was abolished/changed? | ||
| Patti |
Wendy: And Bill will be held accountable for planting that seed of doubt in your mind. No these things will not become more evident in my mind and others. Only those who are looking for an excuse to take the easy road will be allowed to find that which they seek. Allowed to believe a lie. Patti: Wendy, do you know what "ad hominem" tactics are? It is a fancy word meaning nothing more than resorting to personal attacks instead of addressing the issues objectively. It seems to me that you have felt that you needed to resort to such tactics at times. Please, Wendy, for the sake of brotherly love in Jesus Christ, differ with our words, but please leave out such inflammatory words as, "Bill will be held accountable," "allowed to believe a lie," "an excuse to take the easy road," "giving in to pressure." All of those only denounce people personally and do not deal objectively with the issues. And, additionally, they do not accurately assess the situation at any rate. They are your conjectures and speculations. Which is OK for you to have. But every person here is a child of God with an intelligent mind and should be treated with the same respect and dignity with which each of us would like to be treated. God bless always, Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Chyna |
the great relief in Christianity is that we do not have to keep the law in order to be saved. God sees Jesus' unblemished life instead of ours when He sees us. wendy, you are absolutely correct that those who teach are held accountable by God if they are teaching false things, but in the meantime let God be the judge and not ourselves to one another. also if you use the word of God "it is sharper than any two edged sword." if you can use Biblical support to call other people false prophets, then by all means show us, please. the thing that puzzles me in your vocabulary are 'the elect' and 'the few.' all those who are Christian have been elected by God. for you to claim that those that are only SDA are Christian is a sign of heresy :). coz I can tell you that the apostles were not SDA, they had no special Ellen message in the church. please also understand that all the different doctrines in the SDA church are all found in Ellen's writings. So what the SDA church has done is gone from those suppositions and then tried to interpret the Bible in light of them instead of the other way, which is study the Bible and then come to conclusions. when we keep the law it is not because we can obtain complete 'sanctity' or 'perfect Christian lives' because of it. we can, however grow closer to God, but it does not mean we will ever stop struggling with sin in this lifetime. in fact, the closer you are to God, the more acutely you will realize the evilness of sin. your posts grow more adamant, and you will not concede any points, wendy. we all know that God changed His mind about Ninevah, we all know God changed His mind about Adam and Eve and all mankind perishing forever. we all know that there are no more blood sacrifices required. When a boy died when Elijah was staying with the family it is because it was in God's will, but since Elijah cried out to the Lord, the boy's soul returned to him and he was alive again. it is not the easy road we are taking. all of us, sincerely want to follow Jesus Christ. we are searching His word daily, in Hebrew and in Greek with the Holy Spirit to guide us. the fruit of the Spirit (singular) is: love, joy, peace, goodness, patience, gentleness and self control. the fruit of the Spirit is already in us when we become saved. we all want to manifest the fruit of the Spirit in our lives. | ||
| Chyna |
also, good point about circumscion! sherry! did you know that blood levels are lower on the eighth day? that's the day that God required the Jews to be circumsized after they were born :). God knows. anyway, circumscion was given to the Jews as a sign that they were God's people. in the NT it CLEARLY states that circumscion is no longer necessary. that's a big change :) ... | ||
| Breezy |
Why post the texts when you all already know them and will blatantly refute them whether you are correct or not. I have a purpose with what I am doing and you will see it pan out very quickly. If I do not pretend with my posts anymore, then everyone will quickly tire of me. I keep getting enticed back to this forum and I need to leave it. This is one way, since I tried to say goodbye before and everyone kept posting to me anyway. Whatever it takes. Wendy | ||
| Delstar |
Hi Wendy, I'm pretty new to this forum...I've lurked for a while but..... It has come to my mind that satan's first lie was 'thou shalt not surely die' and now his lie is 'thou shalt not surely live'. But then he's that way....always making you think it's okay and then turning on you making you think it's not okay. Just trust Jesus, the pilot of our souls, Wendy. I want to see you in heaven. Jesus Is Enough | ||
| Breezy |
Hi Del, I know you very well from VOAF. Glad to have a chance to meet you 'cause I never post over there. Looks too tricky for a simple country gal like myself. Thank you for your kind words. That is only one of Satan's big lies. Just sit back and do nothing and don't worry cause it's gonna be alright... That's his other big one. Ina flight pattern-trusting Jesus-and still holding, Wendy | ||
| Colleentinker |
I just want to dovetail with what Lydell said earlier. Enoch "was not" because he walked with God. Hebrews 11 lists a roster of OT people who lived "by faith". Everyone who has been or will be saved is saved on the basis of faith. That has always been true. No one is saved because s/he kept the law. God truly has not changed. He did administer different covenants, however. He made covenants with Noah, Abraham, Israel, David, and believers in Jesus. But underlying every one of these was this theme: The just shall live by faith. Abraham was not chosen because he kept God's law. He was the son of a moon-worshiper from Ur. Nothing suggests he was not also a moon worshiper when God called him. Israel descended from unspeakable misdeeds on the parts of the patriarchs, including forbidden Canaanites slipping into the royal bloodline. In no way can we say that anyone received God's favor, or salvation, because they kept the law. EveryoneóOT or NTówho is saved, is saved because of their faith. Jesus is the reason we are saved. The law has absolutely nothing to do with it. Israel, in fact, was never able to keep the law. They didn't just fail because they decided to disobey. They COULDN'T keep the law. God gave it partly in order to prove that no one could be good! Yes, Israel was called to an impossible task. But God's love is greater than the impossibility to which he called them. By faith they too can be saved. The law is not part of the equation of salvation. It is our condemnation. Jesus is our Savior. By faith we are made whole. By faith we have eternal life. By faith we become the righteousness of Christ. BTW, Wendy, I know that the pressures of even considering disagreeing with a dearly loved parent can completely change the dynamics of one's personal study. I also know all too well the fear associated with contemplating leaving absolutely everything I've ever believed, done, or identified with. I know the fear that perhaps I'm wrong. I know the fear that I've been deceived for letting go of Ellen. Saved by grace through faith alone, Colleen | ||
| Breezy |
Colleen, Not saved by 10 commandments, but doing there best to keep them. By walking with God, do you think Enoch disobeyed God's commandments. What does it mean to walk with God. To walk side by side with God, one must be somewhat on a par with God. Nothing unholy and wicked can stand to be in the presence of a holy God. By the way, my parents have nothing to do with this. I simply came full circle and am not searching anymore. Maryann however, insists on being my bud and keeping up till all hours on this forum. :) She doesn't mind me being crotchedy. And she definitely doesn't want to get rid of me. Even if I am an AAAaarab lover. :) Love, Wendy | ||
| Delstar |
Wendy, I love your sense of humor.... It's good to come from the 'seriousness' and have a chuckle even though the subject may be serious. I thought about what you said about it's 'being tricky' over on VOAF. I think I know what you are saying. One needs to be well grounded in the Bible (or EGW) and be sure to wear what I call a 'rhinoceros hide suit' in order to withstand. That's one of the reasons that I come over here and lurk. It's more peaceful here. I wonder why that is. It's food for thought for both of us. Jesus Is Enough | ||
| Billthompson |
Lydell, You have no idea how it thrills my soul to see your posts on this forum. I still remember our correspondence several years ago. You and your family were in my prayers for quite some time. Wendy, I can assure you that neither I nor most of the formers represented here were looking for an "easy way out" when we left the SDA church. IF I had been it would not have taken six heart renching years to finally make the move. No, indeed, staying put would have been the easy thing. Following God into uncharted waters was much more of a challenge than staying put. I have never regreted doing it, however. God Bless, Bill Thompson | ||
| Susan |
As usual Colleen, what a great post! It's funny how I'm often thinking along the same lines as you, but you're much better at articulating things than I am! You made so many great points , there's little left to add! I was pondering the whole Abraham thing last night. In Romans, Paul clearly say's that Abraham was saved by his faith, not the law. So where does that leave his righteous works? He wasn't a sabbath keeper. He wasn't vegetarian. And yet he was the father of all God's people, through FAITH. That's what saves, period! A big difference I've experienced as a Christian is being blown away by the Holiness of God. This realization just keeps growing bigger everyday. Along with it I see just how unholy and sinful I am. He is SOOOO! Holy that I can never come close to measuring up. Some might think this a dismal predicament. But that's where the Cross wipes all fear way!!! Because of Jesus Christ, I can have access to, and eternal life with, Almighty God. None of the laws (that could never be kept) can save. Only faith in Jesus Christ. This leads into something that puzzles me Wendy. You said that Enoch must have been "somewhat on par" to even walk with God. I don't believe that humans can ever come close to being "on par" with God. We're not even on the same golf course! Back to Enoch. I'm not sure, but I just read the story about him walking with God. Is this a different kind of walking with God? Can't any of us potentially be able to have a similar "walk" with God? I know Enoch was a unique situation, but is there more info.? My study bible notes don't give much help here and I've never given Enoch much thought before (sorry Enoch!). Anyway, does the bible indicate that this was a literal walk, actually hanging out in the presence of God? Or, is it just a reference to a "spiritual" walk/closeness to God? This would make more sense, when you look at all of scripture and see how different people were close to God (like David). I'd be curious to know what the actual Hebrew word for walk means as it's used in this context. Sometimes that can shed some light. I guess I had more to add then I thought! In Christ, Susan | ||
| Breezy |
Susan, Not the same par as God in his state of being. But in how he wanted to align his life as closely to God as possible. Which would include following ALL of God's laws. Wendy | ||
| Patti |
Wendy, I know you are sick of me and my big mouth, but I just have to ask you this. I ask forgiveness in advance. You wrote: Just sit back and do nothing and don't worry cause it's gonna be alright... That's his other big one. Patti: What do you base that statement upon? Just wondering... Grace and peace always |
