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Susan
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just got my copy today! "The Four Major Cults", by Anthony A. Hoekema is in print again. I've been trying for 2 yrs. to track one down. The other day I was checking on Amazon and there it was. (I think $52!) Many books I've read on Adventism and the cults make reference to Hoekema's book. I'm so glad to finally get my hands on one. Just thought someone out there might want to know?

Steve, I would imagine that you have this one already???

I'd also enjoy hearing what anyone thought of it if you've read it.

In Christ, Susan
Lori
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 5:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is Adventism listed as one of the four major cults?
Steve
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 6:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Susan,

Yes, I have Hoekema's book. However, I believe it's an older edition. I bought it quite a number of years ago.

At the time, I was heavily influenced by Walter Martin, and tended to discount other person's interpretation of SDAism. Years ago, Martin pretty much summarized the thinking among evangelicals about SDAism, by showing that it was about 50/50 either way.

However, I now believe that Hoekema and others were right all along.

I'm surprised that it's available for $52. I would think it's quite a bit cheaper than that, probably in the $24 to $35 range. I'll check on what I can find if anyone's interested.

Steve
Susan
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 6:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Adventism is listed as one of the major cults. I've been reading the book a bit tonight(while glancing at the convention on t.v.!) and really enjoying it. In one of the chpts. on the traits of a cult, he gives proof that the Adventist church meets all of the criteria. The other three cults are more blatantly deviant (Mormons,Christian Science and JW's), but Hoekema does a good job of revealing the subtle deception of SDA doctrines and how they are contradictory to evangelical Christianity.

I've only read a couple of chpts. but this appears to be one of the most scholarly and biblical works I've seen on cults. I'm also finding it fairly easy to read. It's meant to be a textbook for seminary students but it's written in a manner that I think laymen(and women), can also learn from.

Blessings!
Susan
Steve
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 6:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just did a check. DON'T BUY IT AT AMAZON.COM, unless you have to.

The Four Major Cults, 1963 edition, is available in paperback as follows (I didn't see a new edition available):

ecampus.com has it for $30.30

TextbookSource.net has it for $30.86

Textbooksatcost.com has it for $30.86

BooksAMillion.com has it for $31.31

Amazom.com charges $52.00, plus $4.29 for shipping, for a WHOPPING TOTAL OF $56.29. I don't know about you, but even though they have a great reputation for getting anything, I would still shop around (especially when it's so easy to do that online.)

All of those prices include shipping, where it is charged (ecampus.com does not charge for shipping.)

For anyone who wants good prices on books, online, check http://www.bestbookbuys.com

When you check for a book with that site, they automatically search up to 28 bookstores online, and provide a list of online copies available, listed from cheapest to most expensive, of those 28 stores. The listing also provides shipping information, how long it will take to get the book to you, as well as a BUY link, to go directly to the store of your choice.

Steve
Steve
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 7:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just a quick note about buying from bestbookbuys.com.

I've purchased two books online through them, one at BooksAMillion and one at Powells (Powell's is a HUGE used book store in Oregon.) I received both books within one week. I used to be a voracious reader (and book buyer) so I have a keen sense for a good bargain on books.

Once I'm working again in about 2 to 3 months, I hope to be a voracious reader again.
Chyna
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 7:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i'd be interested in hearing some of the criteria for labeling adventism a cult. susan? :) share share share :).

in Him, Chyna
Susan
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 8:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve, I could really kick myself for getting ripped off! I have been wanting the book for so long, that I was willing to pay just about anything! I'm somewhat new to this whole cyber-shopping experience. Thanks for the info. on where to get a copy. I'll be sure to pass it on to anyone else interested in one. In fact, I might get another copy to donate to my church's library. I thought it was a new printing. I don't know why it's available now. I was told that it was out of print, then when I checked last week it was available. I assumed it was a new edition. But this one is from 1963. I have no idea what's up with that??? I'm just thrilled to have my own copy!

Chyna, Hoekema gives the following distinctive traits for labeling a group as a cult:
1. An Extra-Scriptural Source of Authority
2. The Denial of Justification by Grace Alone
3. The Devaluation of Christ
4. The Group as the Exclusive Community of the Saved
5. The Group's Central Role in Eschatology

I don't have time to go into all the evidence he gives in the book at this time. I think we've discussed each of these areas to some degree on this forum in the past. And I'm certain that many of my fellow formers here, can provide wonderful input into how Adventism fits these areas.

Hope that helps!
Miquel
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 9:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I studited under Walter Martin, years ago, he indicated to me and in our cults class that Seventh Day Adventist were not a cult. He indicated why Hoekema was incorrect in his assesment, because, the cults listed in his book departed from the historic orthodox belief of the person, nature and work of the Lord Jesus Christ as God in the flesh. SDA's hold to this view. Dr. Martin taught that SDA's had cultic doctrines, and were not to be listed with the other cults for that purpose. That is why, Dr. Martin listed SDA's in the Appendix of his book and seperately from the "Kingdom" of the cults in his book.
Additionally, within the SDA church, there are three basic SDA groups. Of the three, the "Historic SDA's" are the ones most legalistic and are the ones that Dr. Martin referred to as those, whereupon it may be difficult to experience fellowship with.

Chuck
Steve
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 10:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Chuck,

I believe that Walter Martin's position had changed by the time he died in 1989 (but I'm still in the process of gathering that information.) I would refer you to the John Ankerberg show, where Martin met with William Johnsson, for 6 consecutive programs. On that program Martin confronted Johnsson, editor of the Adventist Review, with some statements by church leaders in years since he had published his standard reference work on the major cults. Although I only saw those programs a month or two ago, they were eye-opening.

Although I've said a couple of times that I'm currently working with Jill Martin-Rische to gather statements by her father on SDAism, that is still in progress, and I hope you all are being patient with me.

God Bless,

Steve
Miquel
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you for your reply.
When I last spoke with him, Dr. Martin indicated that he needed to get some answers regarding the major controversies within the SDA church at that time. He wanted to update his revised edition of, Kingdom of the Cults. He made desperate attemtps to seek answers from the SDA leadership, however, he did not contact the correct individuals (in my opinion), therefore, he was unable to get the answers he needed at that time.
He said that if he failed to get those answers, he would consider listing SDA's in line with the other cults. However, it remains my opinion, unless credible evidence to the contrary is presented, that he died maintaining his position that SDA's were not a cult to be listed with JW's, mormans, Mind Science, etc.

Chuck
Colleentinker
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, Chuck!

The fact is that SDA's, although they publicly hold to the orthodox positions of the person, work, and nature of Christ, in reality do not.

Adventists began as Arians, and they still teach that Jesus had a sinful nature (although some say he did not). Neverthelss, EGW taught that Jesus had a sinful nature. If that were true, it would have meant he was born with a dead soul, such as Adam and Eve experienced after they sinned. If he had been born separated from God, or with a dead soul, he could not have been God. God, even in a human body, could not have been separated from himself.

Furthermore, they teach that Jesus did not complete his mediatorial work at the cross. Jan Paulsen, GC president, said just four weeks ago in his Sabbath sermon at Toronto, that Jesus is completing his mediatorial work. Hebrews teaches very clearly that he finished at the cross.

Richard heard a Bible-questions-answered program on the Calvary Chapel radio network yesterday. A Jehovah's Witness called in with some questions, and the moderator finally said to him, the way to know if you are really in a cult or not is to ask yourself this question, "Will I be saved if I leave my church?"

Praise God for revealing truth!
Colleen
Miquel
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 11:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Uriah Smith was one and they began as Arians.
Although, there are those that may not hold to the official position of the church, SDA theology holds that Jesus Christ had a dual nature, both human and divine Heb. 4:14-15. I have been taught that Jesus had a sinless human nature. There are those that teach that Jesus was subject to temptation such that he could be our High Priest, and, there are those that teach that Jesus was not subject to temptation.
I would like to locate that reference you mentioned where EGW teaches that Jesus has a sinful nature. Thank you for your reply.

Chuck
Steve
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 11:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Chuck,

The official position of the SDA church on the Trinity and deity of Christ has only been in place since 1950. Even the "old" hymnal indicates a non-belief in the Trinity.

If you have it handy, refer to Hymn #73, Holy, Holy, Holy.

In the old hymnal, published until 1941, and in use in churches until, get this, 1985!, changed the wording of the hymn.

Rather than say, "God in three persons, blessed Trinity" the old hymnal said, "God over all, who reigns eternally."

The new hymnal was published in 1985 and has since replaced the hymnals in most places, but not all.

It was Walter Martin who pointed out in a talk I attended, that a churches hymnology indicates a lot about it's doctrine. He was specifically talking about the Mind Sciences, but it is absolutely true as well for SDAs also.

I agree with you that:

"unless credible evidence to the contrary is presented, that he died maintaining his position that SDA's were not a cult to be listed with JW's, mormans, Mind Science, etc."

Because Martin was such a credible person, I can not definitely say that he had changed his position, however that's why I'm looking into it, because there are some indications that he did change his mind, but those are not clear as of yet.

One of the most dangerous things about SDAism is the double-speak. A number of official doctrines sound very evangelical Christian. But upon listening to sermons preached, and sabbath schools taught, it is very easy to lapse into a very non-Christian (or at least non-Protestant) understanding of many doctrines.

As Colleen points out above, there is a very good question to ask: "Will I be saved if I leave my church?" As it stands, one does not transfer one's membership from a SDA church to another Christian denomination. In SDAism it's officially called apostasy. So much for the "brotherhood of all believers."

I'd like to hear more of your insights from Walter Martin. I was quite a fan of his, read most everything he wrote, and listened to much of his available spoken material.

God Bless,

Steve
Lori
Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2000 - 6:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the information about the book; I want to read it!!

I, too, have been confused about how the SDA can be a cult since they do believe in the diety of Christ, but they still have all these cultic traits along with that. I don't remember ever being taught (in all my years of Adventist schooling) that Christ had a sinful nature. But, even if we conclude that most Adventist believe in Christ as diety and spiritually alive from birth, Adventist still don't believe in the unlimited atonement that scriptures clearly supports. I was always taught that Christ initially saved us from sin, but it was up to us after that point to retain that status by obedience to the law. Paul, obviously, struggled with the church over this very point. We all memorized the scripture "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ." Paul was criticized for his support of the grace of God as means of salvation and was telling the church that, I'm not going to be made to feel guilty and ashamed of the Good News. From the very beginnings of the church age this has been a problematic issue--is the grace of God sufficient for salvation or must it be added to in order to make salvation complete? We all know where Adventism stands on this issue.........in that light, you can make the assumption that Christ was not quite a good enough sacrifice for atonement of all sins and then you can follow through to the conclusion that since he couldn't completely remove the problem of sin that he must not be total deity that came to earth, but only partial deity. And thus you deny that he was God on earth........in this pattern of believe you can't really say that Adventist believe in the deity of Christ. They speak that they do, but their further believes tell that they don't. It's yet another problem of the biblical illiteracy that the SDA church has raised.

May Jesus Christ be praised because of all of those who have seen the light of the truth and had the courage to follow it!!!! I know all of you search for the magic phrase, the perfect thought, the small doubt, the one scripture that can not be twisted, that you can pass along to those you love, that still remain loyal to the doctrines of the SDA. It hurts to see them remain blinded. And it hurts to know they feel that you are the one that is lost. The hard part for me is the bouts of anger toward my family and friends. It's so hard to keep that covered up, because I know in anger I'll never reach them, it will just prove to them more and more how right they are and how wrong I am.

For every truth that God has, Satan has a deception. What a deception the SDA church has proven to be, so, "Study to show thy self a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of Truth" and may the Holy Spirit give us the wisdom in how to pass this truth along.

Lori
Miquel
Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2000 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve,
Thank you for your reply.
Very interesting observation regarding the church hymnals published by the SDA church. Dr. Martin also stated publicly on the Bible Answer Man radio program and in his classes, that the SDA leadership made changes toward orthodoxy sufficient for him to consider them non-cults yet having aberrant theology.
Well, would I be saved if I left the Adventist Church? I think we know the answer from the Historical Adventist. However, my associates would agree, salvation is not in any church nor a related affiliation thereto. Salvation is in Jesus Christ alone through my acceptance of His gift. It is my opinion that one should measure the movement by the official position and not by those individuals having various and sundry doctrines under the banner of Seventh Day Adventist.
I am interested in learning more from former SDA's and what their current views are on specific topics like these.
Chuck
Sherry2
Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 7:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori, one thing I have learned is the beauty of turning my relatives and my hubby over to the care of God for Him to open the eyes. His commands to me are to love them...I realize now that the veil over their heart cannot be ripped open by human hands, just as it couldn't on the day of Christ's crucifixion. My hubby is still SDA, but interestingly enough, through my sharing with my folks (some of you know this was a prayer request very recently), the Holy Spirit and Him alone urged their hearts to study. They themselves are now done with Adventism ( and this is really quite amazing to me), and looking for a grace-based church that loves the Lord their God with all their hearts and loves those around, and worships in Spirit and truth. That was 100% the work of the Holy Spirit. Now they are praying for my hubby! Is that amazing or what! God is so awesomely good! God bless you, Lori. It is great that this forum exists. It has been such a HUGE blessing to me! :) In Christ, Sherry
Colleentinker
Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry, I'm praising God for what he's doing in your family! I'll pray for your husband.

Colleen
Patti
Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2000 - 3:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori, you wrote:
I, too, have been confused about how the SDA can be a cult since they do believe in the diety of Christ, but they still have all these cultic traits along with that.

Patti:
I participate on 5 different SDA or ex-SDA forums. Although most SDAs give lip service to the deity of Christ, I find that they generally believe that Jesus, although being God, somehow also had a sinful nature. I find this repeated over and over again among the SDAs. They have to give him a sinful nature, just like ours, to support the entire premise that He was primarily our Example, to show us how we can overcome with the help of the Holy Spirit, just as He did--(their philosophy, not mine). So the divinity of Christ, if it is acknowledged at all, is subjugated by the emphasis on His fallen human nature.

Lori:
I don't remember ever being taught (in all my years of Adventist schooling) that Christ had a sinful nature.

Patti:
I do. And it always confused me. If you would like to see what SDAs today believe about Christ's human nature, you have only to log on to one of the SDA forums and ask them about it. Almost without exception, SDAs will acknowledge that Christ had sinful human tendencies, just as we do.

Lori:
I was always taught that Christ initially saved us from sin, but it was up to us after that point to retain that status by obedience to the law.

Patti:
Right. Which is actually good solid Roman Catholic doctrine. Ironic, isn't it?

Lori:
........in this pattern of believe you can't really say that Adventist believe in the deity of Christ. They speak that they do, but their further believes tell that they don't. It's yet another problem of the biblical illiteracy that the SDA church has raised.

Patti:
Very good point! The SDA church was raised up by uneducated (some would even say illiterate) people. Not that this in itself is a problem; God can use anyone. But the SDA church was not founded upon the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but upon the uniqueness, specialness, and centrality of the importance of the little flock of people who tenaciously clung to the errors of William Miller and others, as opposed to the completeness, efficacy, and finality of the saving work of Jesus Christ. What chance for orthodoxy and Truth does a denomination have whose foundation was upon the mistake of not taking God at His word(datesetting) and then, subsequently, trying to justify it with an elaborate face-saving cover-up schema (IJ), even placing the blame on God Himself (!) for the error?
Dennis
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti,

Amen to your post above! Adventism was founded on deception. It took my wife and I over forty years to fully understand that and leave. Many historic Adventist positions now embarrass the official church, but they still have not renounced most of those errors. Leaving Adventism has enriched us with an entirely new appreciation for New Covenant Christianity(truly the only kind there is).

In Christ,

Dennis J. Fischer

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