| Author | Message | ||
| Lori |
I have used the search engines on this forum but was not able to find anything about the death of Lazarus. Christ referred to Lazarus' death as sleep. Is this word improperly translated? I know there are 7 different words in the Greek/Hebrew languages that are all translated into English as death or dead and that the original language had different words that implied whether it was physical, spiritual, our positional death in Christ, etc......does anyone know? How do you explain that this is not soul death? | ||
| Bruce H |
Lori here is a word study I did with my Interlinear Bible John 11:11 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus SLEEPS, but I go that I may wake him up." 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his DEATH: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is DEAD. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him. Sleeps = 2837 (Greek strongs) = koimao The strongs complete dictionary of bible words. 1) to put to sleep, to slumber; fig. to decease: - sleep, be dead. The online Bible Kay Hall on Macintosh. 2a) to still, calm, quiet 2b) to fall asleep, to sleep 2c) to die Well Jesus used the word sleeps (Koimao) in verse 11 which can mean sleep or dead. The disciples took the word to mean sleep, or slumber, but notice that Jesus then corrects there misinterpretation by making his statement very plain to understand by saying in verse 14, he is dead. Here are some other texts that use this same Greek word Koimao. Read these texts carefully as well as the texts before and after. 1Cor 11:30, 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 1Cor 15:51, 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 thes 4:14 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. I hope this will help. Bruce Heinrich BH | ||
| Joni |
Bruce, What does it mean "even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him". Where are they sleeping and where do they come from? I ask this because I still get confused about this issue. Do we go to heaven when we die and sleep? Or is it we are sleeping to those on earth because they no longer can wake us? Do we come from heaven with Christ? Were we alive in heaven but aleep on earth? I appreciate your answeres as you seem to make the most sense and have been affirming what has been going on in my new found Christian life without adventism. I have been finding such truth and you make them plain. A prophet makes plain the word of God. Thank you Bruce, Joni | ||
| Bruce H |
Joni I believe that it is the Body that sleep's. If you take every example where it say's sleep if you think of it as the Body and not the Spirit or soul it may answere some of the questions that you may have. Our soul or spirit goes straight to Jesus That is why God brings with him (even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him) the souls or spirits of those who's bodies are sleeping, He then comes raises up their bodies and unites them with their bodies. If you look at this text any other way it does not make sence, How can God bring sombody who does not exist (anialtion). Remember we are Body (Flesh), soul, and spirit. Can any body give her some good study sources. I have not done an extensive study on this. Joni I will try to give you some good sources. Bruce Heinrich BH | ||
| Maryann |
I am curious about something. It seems that soul sleep is a myth and the soul really does go to heaven, BUT, is the soul conscious? Is it aware of God, friends and family on earth etc? OR, is it sort of like un-conscious waiting for it's body like a sealed jar of fruit waiting to be opened? This sounds somewhat flippant, I know, but I am serious in asking this? Also, my daughter commented that she can hardly wait to get to Heaven so she can fly around to other planets. I asked where she got that thought from and she said, "Gramma" (Mom). It's really no big deal, but is that in the Bible or another one of EGWs "thoughts"? Maryann | ||
| Timo |
Hi everybody, I have been busy and not followed the discussions for a while. Now I have a question about Edward Fudges book "THE FIRE THAT CONSUMES". He is a conditionalist and a promoter for "soul sleep". What do you people think about his book? timo | ||
| Bruce H |
Hi Timo Good to here from you again. As for your question I have not read the book. | ||
| Bruce H |
Maryann This may help you a little. Can a person soul or spirit have conscience. Rev 6:9-10 9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Well they can cry out and they have memory and feelings. Ezek 32:21 21 The strong among the mighty Shall speak to him out of the midst of hell With those who help him: `They have gone down, They lie with the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.' Ezek 32:24 24 "There is Elam and all her multitude, All around her grave, All of them slain, fallen by the sword, Who have gone down uncircumcised to the lower parts of the earth, Who caused their terror in the land of the living; Now they bear their shame with those who go down to the Pit. Eze 32:30-31 30 There are the princes of the north, All of them, and all the Sidonians, Who have gone down with the slain In shame at the terror which they caused by their might; They lie uncircumcised with those slain by the sword, And bear their shame with those who go down to the Pit. 31 "Pharaoh will see them And be comforted over all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, Slain by the sword," Says the Lord GOD. So if you believe the Bible those souls or spirits can speak, have shame, and can see and be comforted. 1 Peter 3: 18-19 and 4:6 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 1 Peter 4:6 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. Eph 4:9 9 (Now this, "He ascended" --what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? So Jesus when he was in the Spirit after his death on the cross went and preached to those who are in the pit or hell. So we can preach. Phil 2:10 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, So we can bow. Luke 24:39 39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." So our Spirit1s dont have flesh and bones. Notice that Jesus says that this is the difference. Maybe this is why Jesus always eat almost every time he was seen. Psalm 86:13 13 For great is Your mercy toward me, And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol. Psalm 16:9-10 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices; My flesh also will rest in hope. 10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. Here the bible talks about two of the three aspect of each of us, the Body or flesh and soul. 1 Sam 28: 14-15, 19 14 So he said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle." And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. 15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do." 1 Sam 28:19 19 "Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines." Notice that Samuel can talk and he can even foretell the future. But remember that foretelling the future does not make you a prophet. Gen 35:18 18 And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni; but his father called him Benjamin. Job 14:21,22 21 His sons come to honor, and he does not know it; They are brought low, and he does not perceive it. 22 But his flesh will be in pain over it, And his soul will mourn over it." Job 34:14-15 14 If He should set His heart on it, If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath, 15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust. So spirit and breath are not the same thing. There are plenty more examples I suggest you get a Bible encyclopedia and read about soul, spirit and Hell. Bruce Heinrich BH | ||
| Maryann |
Thank you Bruce. How in the world do you have the time to get all this stuff togather? Do you have it all collected in files that you can just transfer to the site. Maryann | ||
| Joni |
Yes thank you, I never thought about those verses in this way. Especially the one that Jesus said "a spirit does not have flesh and bones." The one about Samuel. I thought this was not really Samuel because in verse 28:16 it says that the Lord did not answer Saul at all and so he went to a women who dealt with familiar spirits, not God to get his answer. Saul died for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit and for going against the word of the Lord. 1Chron. 10:13 Was what Saul perceived a familiar spirit of satan's or was it really Samuel? Why didn't God answer him and Samual did. Was Samuel in hell? Or if he was in heaven, why would he go against God in answering Saul? Am I sounding like an adventist? I am not. I need to take the time and study this. I am studing Colossians with a group and I do not have time right now. | ||
| Bruce H |
Joni Am I sounding like an adventist? No you are sounding like you have questions, Adventist dont like questions. If you read 1 Sam 28 very carfully when you come to verse 12 it says that the medium or woman cried out in a loud voice, in the original Hebrew it gives the impression that the woman was startled or frightened. You see I do not think that this woman or medium knew what she was playing with or how dangerous it is, this is why God gave instructions to kill all mediums and spiritists. When people today play with the dark arts they are messing with things they have know idea about. ---verse 28:16 it says that the Lord did not answer Saul at all and so he went to a women who dealt with familiar spirits---- This is not how I read this text. As for is it possible for Satan to give Saul the perception that he was Samuel. Yes I think that it might be possible. But there is one problem with this explanation, remember this is the word of God and if this was a trick by Satan would not God tell us it was or would he let Satan trick us as well as Saul. ---Was Samuel in hell? Or if he was in heaven,-- This is my understanding after some study on the subject. All saints and sinners before Jesus Christ went to the pit or prison or sheol, and were there until Christ died remember Jesus is the first fruits of the dead, At his death Jesus went, in the Spirit, to those in sheol and preached the Gospel to those who were dead and then after this he took them with him to heaven. Remember that Enoch and Elijah were taken before death. ---why would he go against God in answering Saul-- I do not see that he went against God. I know that this may sound strange to a lot of you but remember we are saved by Jesus and him alone not a proper understanding of the state of the dead. Adventist have a very strong opinion on the state of the dead this has always puzzeled me. Can anybody answere why they have such a strong opinion on this. I know of a Adventist who has cut his family off he will not see them or talk to them because of there stance on the state of the dead. Bruce Heinrich B | ||
| Joni |
So, because the medium was freaked, and didn't expect what she saw, which was Samuel, It was Samuel? I didn't realize that after Christ arose was when the change occured. I really need to take the time and study this. I totally believe that I am saved by Jesus Christ alone and not my belief of where you go when you die. I much prefer to think and know that I go to heaven instead of a cold, dark lonley earth. I still have adventist answers lingering in my head at times. Thank you for your time in answering me. I probably should keep my questions to myself until I go through it and know what I am talking about. | ||
| Maryann |
Nooo Joni, keep asking. These are things a lot of us want to know and just haven't got around to asking. Nothing a former asked is stupid either. I asked a question that really sounds stupid and maybe because of not much action in the last few days it was missed. That is, when we get to heaven, will we have wings and fly to other planets? Is that in the Bible or is that EGW? Maryann | ||
| Joni |
Maryann, Thank you for your encourgement. Last year I read the Bible from cover to cover, and did not see anything about us having wings and flying to other planets. I did get a very good overview of Scripture though. I must do it again. But who knows???? It does sound neat. Joni | ||
| Chyna |
in the bible the word "sleep" is only used for believers. i'll try to post more later :) | ||
| Dennisrainwater |
Hi -- Here's a couple of thoughts on soul-sleep. I hope it helps. This is taken from a paper I wrote in an effort to explain, point-by-point, to my Adventist family and close friends why I felt compelled to leave the church (I hoped this would be less confrontational than a verbal debate!). ******************************* NIV: Lk 16:19-31 The Rich Man and Lazarus 19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in [immediate and continuing] torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25 "But Abraham replied, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27 "He answered, Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "Abraham replied, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30 "No, father Abraham,' he said, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31 "He said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'" I see no feasible way of arguing one's way out of the truth in this matter. One of the last possible stunts I can see Jesus pulling is to use bad theology and doctrine to make a point, however important! If Jesus Himself describes the afterlife in this manner, then I believe it is incumbent upon me to accept it at face valueunless there is some biblical reason not toand there isn't, as far as I can see. This passage very clearly establishes the biblical position of an immediate ascension to Heaven (or Abraham's bosom in Sheol prior to Christ's resurrection) upon the death of the saints. Jesus is telling a story (differentiated by some from a parable because He used names) about two men who die and are taken to their rightful reward. The rich man asks Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers to warn themso they have gone to their respective places while the rich man's brothers are still alive upon the earth! Also, the rich man is begging Abraham to send Lazarus to come and ease his agonyindicating an immediate and enduring period of misery. As contrary as this runs to my deeply entrenched system of beliefs, it is terribly important not to just discard this passage because it does not happen to fit with my established pattern of thinking. These are Jesus' own words here! *********************************** Also -- *********************************** NIV: Phil 1:20-25 20 I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, I don't know how anything could be more clear from this passage than the certain fact that Paul looked forward to dying...so that he could goimmediatelyto be with Christ! This passage cannot be referring to Christ's return and the resurrection, as there would then be no "choice" involvedno decision to be distressed over. He declares he was torn between his duty to stay and help the fledgling church and his burning desire to depart so that he could see and be with his Saviour! "I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far". I do not think any sane person, unless life was nothing but sheer torture, would ever feel that to merely decompose in the ground while sleeping the years away could be "better by far" than livingeven just in this life. Paul had much to live for here. He was doing a tremendous work and seeing so much fruit from his labours. That must have been a blessed existence! Sure, he had more than his share of trials and problemsbut I cannot believe he would have preferred oblivion to his earthly life. No, it must have been the grander and higher calling of seeing Jesus and personally fellowshipping with his Redeemer that were tugging at Paul's loyalties. ************************************ Like Bruce's explanation of Sheol, I've heard that the place of the dead, prior to Christ's resurrection, was split into two separate places. "Paradise", or "Abraham's Bosom" and gehenna. I think this explains Jesus' comment to the thief beside him that "Today you will be with me in 'Paradise'". Also, how the Rich Man and Abraham could communicate across the chasm. Does that make sense to anyone else? I'm thankful for such a place to learn and grow together. Let's all keep helping each other "Grow in Grace"! In His Grip, Dennis<>< | ||
| Patti |
Dennis, May I have your permission to post this on another site? Giving you credit, of course. | ||
| Chyna |
Dennis! you did much better than I could have done :), very well put together. the thing that would dishearten me is when my ex would say, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise" meant "Today (right now I will tell this to you), you will be with me in Paradise (sometime later)." ARGH, only someone totally wanting to twist that statement would say that. in Him, Chyna | ||
| Dennisrainwater |
Patti -- After all the wonderful insights you have shared that have blessed me, of course you may use that!! If you are interested, there are 39 pages more on Janet Brown's "Help_For_SDAs" site. That paper was written for God's glory and benefit, not mine (although I guess I DID get blessed!!! It helped me find a way out of the SDA church!). I don't care about the credit... Chyna -- What an interesting name!! How do you say it?? Thank you for your kind words. You know, only someone who has a "NEED" for that text to be said that way would make such a statement. No one else, to my knowledge, has ever interpreted it that way. And, from all that I have read about it, the Greek grammar does NOT support that rendering. Also, the word "Today" in that context would be very redundant. Of course He was saying it TODAY. I can't see anyone hanging on a cross, barely able to get any breath at all, wasting unnecessary words -- can you? I think there is very little support for that idea. Thanks for letting me share ideas with ya'll!! In His Grip, Dennis<>< | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dennis: Congratulations, you got it! I remember being still young and debating SDA's in my country. One of the most offensive things that they would say about the parable of the Rich and Lazarus was that "it was only a parable about the love of riches and the need to have a charitable heart". Some would say "Jesus was making just a social point about a rich who had not kept the law and a poor that attempted to keep it. This parable was not meant to teach anything about our after life" (barf...pewk...) Tying to control my rage I would respond: "Do you really believe that Christ would sacrifice a very important principle, one that deals as to when eternity "becomes" YOUR eternity just to make a "social" "class warfare" point in a parable? The answer was ALWAYS: "YES. Jesus was never intending to teach a theological principle with this parable"... After that, saints, I could not control my rage! I'd ask point blank, "Is there any instance where you can say the same about Ellen G White, that is, that she used a FALSE ARGUMENT to reinforce a principle? They would answer without even a shade of blush: "NO. I DO NOT SEE ANY EXAMPLE OF THAT IN HER WRITINGS"! No wonder they believe that Jesus was capable of sinning, they REALLY believe he lied in this parable just to make a SOCIAL point. (Oh! Now Jesus acts like a democrat...). I have to joke to keep from crying! That is the reason why I taught in our Churches that the SDA were a cult! We can blame it on ignorance, poor teaching, poor upbringing or anything to mitigate, attenuate or even exculpate people from believing such twist. The truth, however, is that CULTS make you deaf with itching ears to the point of people not being able to hear what they are themselves saying! I praise God for delivering such wonderful people like you ALL and keeping you under HIS truth! Grace Ambassador |
