| Author | Message | ||
| Patti |
Ken, I have been outside of this conversation, but it seems to me that Bill is asking something very simple. When I was SDA I was very reluctant to talk about salvation or even name the name of Jesus because I knew I was not "ready" nor worthy to call myself a Christian. Then it was revealed to me that I was looking the wrong way. I was focused on ME. When it became clear to me that Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, is absolutely and totally worthy, that He indeed pay the full penalty for my sins and that His righteousness covers me totally, a great burden rolled off of me. Here I had been trying to "do it all" for years, and had no idea that Jesus had already "done it all" for me 2000 years ago. You see, Ken, John 3:16 means exactly what it says: Whoever believes in Him WILL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. The reason Bill and others keep calling you back to an affirmation of faith in Jesus Christ is because this is the ONLY TRUTH THAT MATTERS. What does it matter what we believe about the afterlife IF WE HAVE NOT ASCERTAINED THAT THERE WILL BE ONE FOR US?! What does it matter whether or not we try to keep the commandments IF WE ARE NOT CERTAIN THAT OUR SINS ARE FORGIVEN?! What does it matter what day we set aside to honor God IF WE CANNOT REJOICE AND REST IN THE ASSURANCE THAT HE WILL SAVE US?! To quote a very good friend of mine: The Gospel plus nothing; Nothing but the Gospel. The Gospel is as good as it gets. Jesus has perfected forever those who will believe in Him. THAT INDEED IS GOOD NEWS. The disciples asked Him, "What shall we do to do the work that God requires?" Jesus answered them, saying, "The work of the Father is this: to believe in Him Whom He has sent." Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| George |
Billthompson, Since Maryann is my sister we share the same mother:-) I have talked to Mom many times about salvation by grace and she believes it But, she also believes the sabbath is a salvation issue. "If you love me keep my commandments" is one of her favorite verses and implies to her, if you don't keep my commandments you don't love me and if you don't love Him, how can you be saved by Him. Or something close to that. At her age and the way she views things, I am content to believe she is saved because she really believes that Christ died for her and she just has to believe. What ever else she believes does not matter. And I think that it is best to leave her at that point. What do you think? George | ||
| Patti |
George, I think you are wise. We have to leave the judgment to God. Patti | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Wendy, Sorry about your computer eating what you wrote:-( Looking forward to getting the re-do.;-)) As to Ken. I wanted the people that were dialoging with him to see what he ALREADY posted. These people are new to the site and didn't know the MOUNTAINS of archived post's there are. Before putting in the amount of time into this again with him and not acomplishing anything constructive, it seemed fair to me to let the new people make up their minds if they wanted to do this again. Why don't you take a look at the mountains of post's. If you will even skim through them quickly, you will be amazed at the few times Ken atempted to answer any of the questions. It was absolutely frustrating!!!!!!!!!!! Ken SHOULD post his story and basis of salvation!! It's only fair! I don't believe Bill was wanting to judge whether Ken was saved or not before he talked to him. That is why I called him on what he wrote for clarification. I believe Bill was simply overwhelmed by the tone of the previous mountains of post's and didn't want to get involved with someone that seemed by his post "in it for the fight". You said: "But now I hear in the above thread that you all will not dialogue with Ken unless you know he is saved. How blatantly arrogant." We don't want to dialogue about the Sabbath and non-salvation issues when Ken has NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT stated his position on the simple gospel and his securtity of salvation. It is SIMPLY pointless in light of the reams and reams and reams of paper we all already devoted to endless dialogue with him. If someone really wants to dialogue with him on the non-salvation issues, that is great. It was just fair for all to see how he dialogued previously. I have been waiting for MONTHS to hear simple answers to simple questions that were asked of him!!!!!! I had planned on e-mailing him once I got moved to see how he was doing. I'll bet everyone here would love to talk to him after he states the basis and grounds of his faith. That is only fair!! He really owes all of us that simple basis and grounds of his faith! Now, if you e-mail back and forth with him, could you PLEASE encourage him to do this simple request. Remember also, there is "history" on this or any other site that a new person may not be aware of. So, now that you are aware that Ken has a very lengthy history here, go look at it. I truly care about Ken, believe it or not. He just needs to answer a couple questions! I truly trust that we are still friends too;-)) I got very carried away and repetitious here, I'm sorry. I wanted to make sure there was no doubt about what I am saying. WE ARE NOT AGAINST KEN!!!!!! AND I'M GLAD YOU ARE STILL HERE!!;-)) Maryann | ||
| Breezy |
Thanks Maryann, I am still here, I just don't want to get caught up in the same kinda thing you are talking about with Ken. There is no point to it. I have only felt attacked by a couple of people here and even them I'm not angry at. So, hopefully I can regroup and get another e-mail to you. I am going to stick to supporting eachother as fellow christians and leave the details to God. Period. I meant it when I said I love everyone here. Whether I agree with them or not. If I made agreement a key issue, it wouldn't be true christian love would it. Take care and God bless, Wendy | ||
| Loneviking |
Well, Wendy, you are right in that Ken isn't likely to proselytise any of us. There is indeed a mountain of posts from Ken from the last time this go-around got started. What I think Bill is saying is that most of us formers, on the Sabbath, consider it a non-issue. Instead of a non-issue, let's see where Ken stands on the issue of salvation. And Ken, I don't see anybody running and hiding under rocks. The recitation of the writings of the early church fathers just gives further evidence that Sunday was the day of worship for the early church. You have to ask why and the only two answers I can see are either: 1. Ignore Hebrews 3 and 4, and say that all of these writers were heretics and traitors to the faith. or 2. Hebrews 3 and 4 is right, Sat. as Sabbath was for the Jew and no one else, and the early Christian writers attest to this belief by their writings. Choice 1 seems way to simplistic and unlikely to me. How likely would it be that when any of the earliest church writings (outside of scripture) talk about the day of worship, the day of worship would always be Sunday? No, wait Ken, I can bet that like most good SDA's you'll tell me that somehow the pope engineered this--right? O.K., time for somebody else to kick around the soapbox............ | ||
| George |
When you are really saved, and I mean when you know you are saved, what difference does it make what day was kept. I would really like to know. Geouge | ||
| Chyna |
ditto :) dear ken, i can assure you i've spent hours in the word of God reading about the sabbath, if you know my story i was an unaware Christian involved with a traditional adventist. it hurt a lot to realize that when he said it was about the heart he meant the heart had to think that keeping the sabbath on saturday was what the heart was supposed to think. some baptists don't believe in the 6 day, some do. but it is besides the point. the point is that to Adventists, those doctrines are more important than loving other Christians or fellowshipping with them. and that, Ken, is a far greater sin than any other that the adventist church could conjure up whether breaking the sabbath or eating meat. in Him, Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
people point out that Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable because it uses actual names. no other place in the bible when Jesus tells a parable does He give names to any of the characters. the other stuff your friend will bring up can be read at 'Where does the soul go?' thread. the saddest part that the most clear verse on where the soul goes is completely twisted up in an interpretation that is so tortuous that only one who is spiritually blind could contemplate it that way. the verse says, "Today, you will be with me in paradise" adventists will yaw and yarn about how Jesus doesn't mean that the thief will be with him the same day. that Jesus just meant: Today because I'm telling you today, you will be with me in paradise (indefinite amount of time). i huff with frustration because it is so obvious, but so unobvious to one who is blinded, but i guess you can't be mad at a blind person for being blind? all you can do is gently lead them to feel and touch the truth until it is memorized first with their hands and then in their hearts and minds. | ||
| Debbie |
Rom 6:14 "For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." Rom 7:5 "For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions AROUSED BY THE LAW were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, WE HAVE BEEN RELEASED FROM THE LAW so that we serve in the NEW way of the Spirit, and NOT in the OLD WAY OF THE WRITTEN CODE." Colossians "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us ALL our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, THAT WAS AGAINST US AND THAT STOOD OPPOSED TO US; he took it away, NAILING IT TO THE CROSS." Rom 8:1-3b "Therefore, there is now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering." Rom 9:16 "It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." Rom 10:4 "Christ is THE END OF THE LAW so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." Rom 13:10 "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Galatians 2:15-16 "We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is not justified by overserving the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, to, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and NOT by observing the law, BECAUSE BY OBSERVING THE NO ONE WILL BE JUSTIFIED." Galatians 2:19-21 "For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not aside the grace of God, FOR IF RIGHTEOUSNESS COULD BE GAINED THROUGH THE LAW, CHRIST DIED FOR NOTHING!" Galatians 3:10 "ALL who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.' Clearly, NO ONE is justfied before God by the law, because, 'The righteous will live by faith.' THE LAW IS NOT BASED ON FAITH; on the contrary, 'The man who does these things will live by them.' CHRIST REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW BY BECOMING A CURSE FOR US, for it is written: 'Cursed is everyone one who is hung on a tree.'" Galatians 3:18 "For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise." Galatians 3:19 "What then was the purpose of the law? It was ADDED because of transgressions UNTIL the Seed to whom the promise referred had come." Galatians 3:23 "Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up UNTIL faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. NOW THAT FAITH HAS COME, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE LAW." Galatians 5:13-14 "You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" Galatians 4:16 "So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature." Galatians 6:2 "Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ." | ||
| Debbie |
Rom 6:14 "For sin shall not be your master, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW, but under grace." Rom 7:5 "For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, THE SINFUL PASSIONS AROUSED BY THE LAW were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, WE HAVE BEEN RELEASED FROM THE LAW so that we serve in the NEW way of the Spirit, and NOT in the OLD WAY OF THE WRITTEN CODE." Colossians "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us ALL our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, THAT WAS AGAINST US AND THAT STOOD OPPOSED TO US; he took it away, NAILING IT TO THE CROSS." Rom 8:1-3b "Therefore, there is now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering." Rom 9:16 "It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." Rom 10:4 "Christ is THE END OF THE LAW so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." Rom 13:10 "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Galatians 2:15-16 "We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, to, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and NOT by observing the law, BECAUSE BY OBSERVING THE NO ONE WILL BE JUSTIFIED." Galatians 2:19-20 "For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:21 "I do not set aside the grace of God, FOR IF RIGHTEOUSNESS COULD BE GAINED THROUGH THE LAW, CHRIST DIED FOR NOTHING!" Galatians 3:10 "ALL who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do EVERYTHING written in the Book of the Law.' Galatians 3:11-12 "Clearly, NO ONE is justfied before God by the law, because, 'The righteous will live by faith.' THE LAW IS NOT BASED ON FAITH; on the contrary, 'The man who does these things will live by them.'" Galatians 3:13 "CHRIST REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW BY BECOMING A CURSE FOR US, for it is written: 'Cursed is everyone one who is hung on a tree.'" Galatians 3:18 "For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise." Galatians 3:19 "What then was the purpose of the law? It was ADDED because of transgressions UNTIL the Seed to whom the promise referred had come." Galatians 3:23-25 "Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up UNTIL faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. NOW THAT FAITH HAS COME, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE LAW." Galatians 5:13-14 "You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" Galatians 4:16 "So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature." Galatians 6:2 "Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ." Living in Grace, Debbie | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Wendy, I was just thinking, (that's scary!;-) What frustrated me so much about the mountains of post's from Ken was that he would slam a post that someone posted TO HIM and not give a reason for doing so? Much in the same way he somewhat slammed Chyna's post about the early Church. He did not give any clear reason for his riducule of her using the early Church reasoning!? I certainly don't mind being slammed;-)) AS LONG AS I'M TOLD WHY and a little dialgue goes into the reason I'm slammed. I don't remember him addressing the "jot and tiddle" issue. (I may have missed it?) though I don't think so. That issue was soooooooo important to the discussion. There were many post's he just trashed with no explanation! I posted to him yesterday from my heart and didn't get a response as was usual. He could at least post as to why and where it is wrong in his mind. Here's the beginning of his response to Chyna: "Hi Chyna: I really don't get why, when you can't let the Bible do it's own Revelations you've got to jump ship to early christian writings. You know if you really step back and look at yourself trying to explain off the Ten commandments and following christ what exactly are you doing by those reactions? Isn't a Christian sombody that follows Christ? Everyone here talks about the freedom and grace from following Christ, yet no one follows his examples! I like how you always point your browser to anti-Adventist sites to learn what we believe, I'm sure your being fed exactly what you want. Why not go to a site that actually knows and teaches what the Adventist Church belives? I suggest you go to www.amazingfacts.org. It would be a great date with your ex-boyfriend." And the rest was not to much better. Can you truly back up that kind of response multiplied by the mountain of similar previous responses?! Isn't it odd to you that some would insinuate that us Former's (most of which are 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation SDA's) don't really know what SDAism teaches!? My goodness gracious sakes alive! Two other things;-)) Calling Bill a "silly goose" totally and completely made my day! I'm still laughing over that one. My picture of him changed radically to this very long necked fowl thing with feathers!! And...I'd really like to meet you sometime! You really got spunk! ;-)) Maryann | ||
| Ken |
Hi Chyna: More about the life after death thingie. If "the rich man and lazarus is literal then I guess we'll be able to talk between heaven and hell to each other? Is this correct? Would Lazarus be just a little ticked off after being in Heaven four days to have to come back here to earth? When Jesus said "Today, you will be with me in paradise" why when He arose from his sleep did he say to Mary "I am not yet ascended to My Father." John 20:17 was he not suppose to be in Paradise back on Friday? One of Satan's first conversations with Eve was "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die." Genesis 3:4 If there is no death, and I mean real death none of this Spirit flying off to heaven stuff why would Satan use this as part of his arsenal? With all the life after death movies coming out from hollywood,and more and more people buying into it does it not appear that the devil is just setting us up for more deception? Talk tome Chyna, I need to learn more so I can talk to my friend Rick. Ken | ||
| Chyna |
dear ken, please read the thread on "what is the soul? where does it go." you'll find all the rebuttals to the notion of soul sleep there. Chyna | ||
| Billthompson |
Ken, Would you please correspond with me off this forum. You can of course continue your on forum posts but in addition to that I'd really like to have a heart to heart with you in private. My e-mail address: billtod@airmail.net I'd be sending even this message to you in private if I knew your e-mail address. Bill Thompson | ||
| Sherry2 |
Bill, I was to your web site about 3 months ago, and had e-mailed you too. That was long before I knew about this site. Your site did help me on my way. Thanks, Sherry | ||
| Dennis |
Bill, Sounds like you have a Christian Web site, please give us the address to find it. I always enjoy reading your encouraging and inspiring posts. Dennis J. Fischer E-mail: fischerdj@msn.com | ||
| Billthompson |
Dennis, The URL is http://web2.airmail.net/billtod/ I really did not come here to promote my own site but rather to fellowship with other formers. I actually refer people to this site right from the front page of my site because I feel this site is more helpful for those who are in transition from SDAism or are now formers. There is no open forum at my site. My site was designed to be a research source for non-SDAs who were studying and being mislead by SDA teaching or pastors who were working with people confused by SDA teachings. I teach Sunday school at my church and often cover similar issues. My first project was to put Canright's book "Seventh-day Adventism Renounced" online. You could not find it online anywhere back when I first did that. Now it is at several sites. I am quite happy about that. Many sites copied it from my site with my blessings. I eventually put the "1919 Bible Conference" and other historic information at the site. As I put each of these online my site was the only one to have the info. online but many others have these things now, again with my blessing. I left the SDA church 21 years ago and knew of no one in this same position. I had, of course, been led to think that all people who leave the SDA church go off into heathen obscurity. I thought I was unique because I was enjoying an active vital Christian walk after SDAism. How refreshing to find there is a whole host of formers out there growing in Christ. I fear to many people fall into the pitiful condition SDAs predict for those who leave because they know of no one else who has successfully made the transition. Praise the Lord for this communication tool. They can not silence our voices now! In Christ, Bill Thompson | ||
| Cas |
Bill~ So good to see you on this forum. Your site helped me tremendously when I was doing research on Ellen White. I have the book Adventism Renounced by Canright. I am confused by some of the insults hurled at Canright (by sda's), like he being mentally unstable, depressed, recanting on his deathbed. Do you have any information about him that you could put to rest these rumors? Thanks CAS | ||
| Terry |
Cas, Here is a page that might help you. *Smiles* : http://www.ellenwhite.org/canright/egw16.htm Terry |
