| Author | Message | ||
| Chyna |
dear wendy, you are correct we are still supposed to keep the law. what is the law? "love the lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul," and "love your neighbor as yourself." "love is the fulfilment of the law." as Christians we will want to obey God. the difference between your position and mine is that I do not think that the "law" is defined by the ten commandments. but rather by the definition Jesus proclaimed Himself. to help support your claim I will point out that 9 of the 10 commandments are reinstated in the New Testament. but why is the fourth, if it is so vital, missing? there are many lists of sins in the New Testament but no mention of Sabbath Keeping. it makes me wonder whether your motivation in keeping the law is because you want to uphold the definition of Sabbath as it was defined to Israel and therefore justify your stance on Sabbath primarily, or you want to encourage us to keep the law 'love God, your neighbor' because it will help us all grow closer to God. And he gives a good deal of attention to the topic of her handsome, young man/spirit guide, that accompanied her in visions wow, spirit guides are satanic. I hadn't realized Ellen had a demonic influence in her life. creepy. i am more and more glad that i am not part of the adventist church. Chyna | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Wendy, Here is a question. Is it possible for God to sin? Waiting for your answer;=)) I sure do enjoy the frivolous rounds we have on the funny side! You have no idea how much good it does me to have a really good laugh:-)) Thank you. Maryann | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Wendy: I'm sorry, but your answer pasted below is a canned answer! Typical "fire-from-the-hip" type of pre-packaged answer used by every SDA that I've debated: Grace Ambassador, I have read all those texts and none of them tell me not to keep the law. They simply tell me that it is not the law that saves me. It does not mean I am released from keeping the law, simply from my dependance on it. Hebrews 10:9 He "taketh away the first and establish the second". You are keeping something so meaningless that is no longer "established" by God! What do you think is the meaning of: Colossians 2:20 - it does not have the word "do not keep" in there - is that your argument? Galatians 5:1, in context with chapter 4 - it does not have the word "do not keep" in there - is that your argument? Colossians 2:14 - Blotting out (this means erasing) the handwriting of ordinances that was AGAINST US - it does not have the word "do not keep" in there - is that your argument? If you do not think that because you do not find the word "not to keep" in there you should keep "keeping it", invite me next time you kill a lamb for a sacrifice. Well... it says that I should not depend on the blood of animals any longer, but it does not tell me to stop "killing them and offering them". It says that God does not take pleasure in these sacrifices, but "it does not tell me not to keep them".... Pointless! If the law is this "useful" and "meaniingless" why even bother keeping it. NOW you are in real danger! You keep the law for no spiritual reason whatsover! Meaninless compliances are a particular trait of dead religion! That's why Paul said:...Well, read Colossians 2:20-22 and the APOSTOLIC COMMAND of chapter 3 verse 1. The book of Colossians (read some valid source) deals with rampant heresy of those days similar to what your denomination espouses! Your answer is "so canned" that the next thing you will ask us is: "Then, just because of Grace, should I go kill and steal, or commit adultery? Of course not! So if I have I am not released from these laws, then why should I be released from keeping the Sabbath??" See, I even know how predictable cults are. They confuse moral law with ceremonial law! They confuse, period! Now, using your own words again: I am released from keeping the law, simply from my dependance on it. I have read most of your posts since I joined the list about a month ago. I SEE A PROGRESSION. The same dangerous progression I see in a cult when they want to deceive you. They say that they are "just like you". I already dealt with this. Then they start saying, "my leaders teach and preach thus and such, but I disagree in few points". They it grows into "incursion" and "infiltration" and the person begins to show that they never left or never changed and that THEY FULLY AGREE WITH THEIR DENOMINATION WHATEVER CRAZY CLAIMS THEY MAY HAVE, INCLUDING USING THE SAME CANNED ANSWERS. If I am being to harsh to you is because I feel that you attempted to use deceptive methods in leading me to believe that you were not as your teachers! Now I see that you just said it! I was honestly and openly discussing with you thinking you were what you portrayed yourself to be. As another brother said in a post above, "intellectual honesty" is very important when we discuss matters of faith. See, first you said that you do not "keep the Sabbah in a legalistic way" then you disclosed your views of Jesus, now you admit to keeping the law in a meaningless manner, and gives typical Adventists answers. See the PROGRESSION? C'mon! I'd rather you say, I AM A FULLY COMMITTED SDA! Not to me! But to God! DO YOU THINK I STARTED DEBATING CULTS YESTERDAY AND THAT I DO NOT KNOW THEIR WAY OF ENCROACHING? THE WAY YOU DESCRIBED YOURSELF ABOVE, ALONE IS DANGEROUS! I'D RATHER YOU BE AN ORTHODOX JEW AND KEEP THE LAW! THE LAW THAT YOU FIND SO MEANINGLESS, (AND SO IT IS...) BUT YOU STILL KEEP IT! Please read Romans 7 and answer to yourself if you are really free from being married to the law. By the way, I keep the law too: I DO NOT KILL I DO NOT STEAL I DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, NOT EVEN OF MYSELF. WHAT I SAID I AM IN THIS LIST, WITH THE GRACE OF GOD, I AM! You may genuinely think that you hid nothing from me! But it is not so... The more I counter argument with you, the more you show how much of a SDA you are! You began by saying that you "were not like those teachers who teach erroneous doctrines and misapply things". Now you're using the same arguments! It is not for being a SDA that I am sad! No madam! It is because you, at least, IMPLIED that you were different than your teachers! This is simply not correct! Your progressive pro-SDA answers, including the canned ones prove that! I forgive you and will pray for you! As for this forum, without any hostility, I will leave you up to God's love! And you know that you will be in GOOD HANDS! You can say whatever you want, respond whatever victim like way you want OR NOT AT ALL. I prefer not to respond until you openly admit "I AM A SEVENTH DAY AVENTIST" JUST LIKE THE TEACHERS OF WHOM I SAID TEACH ERRONEOUS DOCTRINES AND MISAPPLY THINGS. Then I will join hands with you and sing COM BY YA! I am not going to fool myself. You are probably used to this type of admonition. I know I am not the first! As such, it will not hurt you! I believe someone had to tell you these things with a knife in their own hearts for sadness. Then, let these things be said by one who believes that God will gather His elect and REVEAL HIS WORD to them no matter where and who they are! ************************************************** Grace Ambassador | ||
| Breezy |
Susan, I don't understand how Jesus could be FULLY human and fully God, but I don't need to. I'll learn the answer someday if He wants me to. Maryann, I love the flip side, I just cannot tolerate this side. Please write me if you like, I value your friendship. Chyna, Just because someone tells you that she had a spirit guide doesn't make it so. We have all had angels who walk with us and help us sometimes when we don't even know they are angels. Grace Ambassador, You have simply witnessed my travelling through foreign territory and experimenting with what I believe. I have simply come full circle. That is scientific reasoning. When I talked about the teachers in the SDA church who mislead and misapply doctrines, I meant the ones who have completely disguarded the law in favor of the New Theology. You can attack me all you want, I have simply abandoned debating this with any of you because it won't do any good. Maybe it is harsh and unkind to say that you all are under a delusion. I will not refer to it again, but you know how I feel. Whether you are or I am, we will all know in the end. That is all end of story debate will do no good. We just have to wait and see. I just simply find it impossible to participate on this forum any more believing that your teachings are heresy. It took me a couple of months to figure that out but here I am and it by it's very nature alienates me from the group. That is something I cannot help. I am sorry you take offense at this learning process I have gone through. I do not answer the questions you pose and others because I have been here long enough to see what you do to people who disagree with your theology. Not just you. Most here. With some exceptions. Once one becomes different you turn on it like a pack of wolves. Well I'll go find my own pack. That is as it should be. Wendy | ||
| Breezy |
Maryann, oh yeah. No God is sinless. But that is part of the mystery that is the Son become human flesh. We'll know someday. I am content to wait. Wendy | ||
| Breezy |
Maryann, That should be "No. God is sinless. The above reads completely opposite. Wendy | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Wendy, I understood what you ment the first time;-)). BUT, we all know that God is sinless. I want to know, "is it POSSIBLE for God to sin?" Hey, I value your friendship too. And you help me pick on people too;-)) That is very important, you know, lighten it up sometimes! Maryann | ||
| Breezy |
Maryann, Nope. I guess Christ as the Son of Man was just as dichotomous as me. HMMM. Picking on people is the only redeeming quality here. :) Wendy | ||
| Maryann |
Wendeeeeeeeeeeee, That still doesn't answer my queeeeeeestion;-((! Is it possible for God to sin;-))? Mareeeeeeeeeann | ||
| Breezy |
Maryann, Are you whining? Quit that. :) I said NOPE WWWWWWWWWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNddddddddddddddddddddddddddyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Wendy;-) Okay, if God can't sin and Jesus is God, He COULD NOT HAVE SINNED!? WDYT Waiting for your WINDY answer:-) Maryann | ||
| Breezy |
Breezy answer, that's breezy answer. That is what I meant by dichotomous. I don't mean He could have sinned. Just that He had the same propensity. He took on our sinfull nature. Therefore He had a propensity to sin. He did not take on our perfect,sinless nature. We are not that way. He became like us so that we might become like Him. With every capacity of accessing the Holy Spirit and His power to overcome sin. Ha! Smiles like Terry! Wendy | ||
| Maryann |
Ha! yourself!, Does God have the propensity to sin? Propensity is a word I learned very young fron SDAism. Propensity means; natural inclination or bent; leaning. The God that died for me, pain in full for all my sins, saved me and is sitting at the right hand of His Father DOES NOT HAVE a natuaral inclination to sin!!! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR Tempted in all things as we, yet without sin, DOES NOT say He had a natural bent to sin! Grrrr ;).......Maryann | ||
| Breezy |
Jesus as God didn't have the propensity to sin. Jesus as man did have the propensity to sin. We will never be able to understand how this is possible until He explains it to us. If He chooses to. Do you growl like this often? :):):):):) Wendy | ||
| Maryann |
Yes, I growls a lots. Just ask anyone I e-write to! Sometimes there are whole lines of Grrrrrrrrrrr's If Jesus the man had a propensity to sin and did sin, what would have happened to the Jesus that was God? Would they have separated and Jesus the man go to hell and Jesus the God gone to heaven? If they didn't seperate, then God would have gone to hell as sin certainly wouldn't have gone to heaven?! What are you thinking? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! BTW, when you were a wee thing of 10 on this date 23 years ago, Elvis died. Maryann | ||
| Chyna |
wendy, spirit guides are definitely demons. all you have to do is read up on it and you'll see why that creeps out just about everyone. we do have guardian angels. however, prophets don't receive messages from angels, they receive them from God. true, angels are used as messengers to mary, and other ppl in the Bible. hm, it makes me sad to know you can't see the bizarreness of EGW. i'll try to find a book for you to read on it, but I've read a lot about demons and spirit guides for some reason. probably reading some books on the occult. chyna | ||
| Allenette |
In regards to 23 years ago today....here is a link to lighten up with: http://chelsea.ios.com/%7Ehkarlin1/welcome1.html Hint: It is the First Presleyterian Church website. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Wendy, You forgot to comment or answer this: "If Jesus the man had a propensity to sin and did sin, what would have happened to the Jesus that was God? Would they have separated and Jesus the man go to hell and Jesus the God gone to heaven? If they didn't seperate, then God would have gone to hell as sin certainly wouldn't have gone to heaven?! What are you thinking? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!" Maryann;-) | ||
| Bmorgan |
Maryann, Why do you ask such hard questions? Only a friend could ask you such a hard question. Enjoy the packing. Sista | ||
| Billtwisse |
From Bill, to ALL: For the 500th time, Milton, your spiritual wisdom never ceases to amaze me! Well, a few days away and I have to go to the archives to find where I was the last time I was on! I'm glad that you all have a great time interacting together. I will be out on vacation for the next week. Some of you may regret that and others will no doubt celebrate! I hope to begin posting again before too long. The only thing I want to say right now is this. There is a good reason why I don't discuss issues other than Christ with Roman Catholics, Mormons, SDA's, JW's, Christian Science, etc. It is this: if we don't agree on Christ's person and work of salvation, we have an absolutely different baseline of truth. If our gospel foundation is not the same, we aren't judging all the other issues by the same standard. So our communication on those things will have no spiritual value. One point of clarification: SDA's have NEVER taught for a moment that the finished work of Christ is the ONLY work of atonement. In recent years, some have taught that it was ONE finshed and complete work of atonement, or even the primary work (this is contrary to the early pioneers). But all of the leaders continue to teach, without exception, that there is a final work of atonement in our hearts and lives (corresponding with a work of Christ in heaven) going on now. Paul is clear in Galatians that any gospel, other than what he received by special revelation, is from devils and not from God. If Christ could have sinned, God had no plan of salvation from eternity that was certain and secure. Neither is our own eternal future certain and secure. D.M. Canright left Adventism in 1887. The year after he left (1888), Adventism began an intense use of gospel language to justify its existence. Mr. Canright was absolutely unimpressed that 1888 changed anything. The 'gospel prostitution' to justify Adventism has continued to grow ever since. The technique is nothing new: try and use the gospel to vindicate your heretical past. Roman Catholics invented it long ago in response to the Reformation. Of course, wherever the NT gospel is emphasized--even in the midst of heresy, God may work to save some souls individually. But this salvation is owed to God alone, not to any of the men who taught it--nor their other false doctrines. If we try and use gospel language to vindicate our doctrine of devils, we are prostituting the most holy oracle that God has given. God is far more displeased with that than if we are honest and straightforward about what we believe. The early SDA pioneers were actually more sincere and honest men than the leaders of SDAism today. --Twisse |
