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Billthompson
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2000 - 3:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grace Ambassador,

Amen! I know quite well that not all, yourself included, who believe in the 5 points (TULIP) of Calvinism are like the group I described above. I thoroughly enjoy and agree with most of your posts that I have read.

I hate labels myself and avoid putting myself in any particular camp, but I have told many people that if there were only two choices Arminianism vs. Calvinism, I'd have to choose Calvinism because of the assurance of salvation. I do not think one has to accept every aspect of the 5 points of Calvinism, as taught by many, however.

That is where I stand.

A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone,
Bill Thompson
Graceambassador
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2000 - 3:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Bill T.

Every time I visit a church, sometimes even as a guest preacher, and the host church uses language such as:
"you have to accept this.... and that..." or "if you don't....then you won't..." I feel very uncomfortable.

Obviously I know that there are Biblical truths that we must embrace and accept. Not less obvious, I also know that there is people who won't make it to heaven.
I also know, however, that if you look closely on how "religion" fill in the blanks, boy, you do not feel just like walking out of those churches, YOU FEEL LIKE RUNNING AWAY FROM THEM!!!

I really enjoy your views!

Grace Ambassador!
Sherry2
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 6:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What's TULIP?
Sherry2
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 6:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What's TULIP?
Patti
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 7:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The TULIP is considered by many reformed scholars to be the five points of Calvinism. Notice that they were formulated well after the life and death of John Calvin:

"The Five Points of Calvinism
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This system of theology was reaffirmed by the Synod of Dordt in 1619 as the doctrine of salvation contained in the Holy Scriptures. The system was at that time formulated into "five points" in answer to the unscriptural five points submitted by the Arminians to the Church of Holland in 1610.
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According to Calvinism:
Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

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The Five Points of Calvinism are easily remembered by the acrostic TULIP"

T
Total Depravity (Total Inability)

Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being.

The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5).


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U
Unconditional Election

Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).

This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-18). Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve. Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism.

The elect are saved unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). Thus, though good works will never bridge the gulf between man and God that was formed in the Fall, good works are a result of God's saving grace. This is what Peter means when he admonishes the Christian reader to make his "calling" and "election" sure (I Peter 2:10). Bearing the fruit of good works is an indication that God has sown seeds of grace in fertile soil.


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L
Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)

Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9). Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28). Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).

This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!


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I
Irresistible Grace

The result of God's Irresistible Grace is the certain response by the elect to the inward call of the Holy Spirit, when the outward call is given by the evangelist or minister of the Word of God. Christ, himself, teaches that all whom God has elected will come to a knowledge of him (John 6:37). Men come to Christ in salvation when the Father calls them (John 6:44), and the very Spirit of God leads God's beloved to repentance (Romans 8:14). What a comfort it is to know that the gospel of Christ will penetrate our hard, sinful hearts and wondrously save us through the gracious inward call of the Holy Spirit (I Peter 5:10)!


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P
Perseverance of the Saints

Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine which states that the saints (those whom God has saved) will remain in God's hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. Romans 8:28-39 makes it clear that when a person truly has been regenerated by God, he will remain in God's stead. The work of sanctification which God has brought about in his elect will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life (Phil. 1:6). Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the "last day" (John 6:39). The Calvinist stands upon the Word of God and trusts in Christ's promise that he will perfectly fulfill the will of the Father in saving all the elect.


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This description of the Five Points of Calvinism was written by Jonathan Barlow who acknowledges that not all those bearing the name "Calvinist" would agree with every jot and tittle of this document."


URL: http://www.reformed.org
Graceambassador
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 10:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti:
This is it! ain't it cool?

There are many more scriptures that combined with the context of the Bible lead to the logical conclusion that Calvin was right in the TULIP thing!

That's where I stop with Calvininism: TULIP.

TULIP explains the major misunderstantings of soteriology and puts in place texts that are difficult to understand in terms of what is "eternal salvation" in the Bible and when the word "salvation" in the Bible is "salvation from an emergent tragedy". Example Peter screaming:
"Save me Lord lest I perish" or the jailer asking Paul and Silas "What must I do to be saved" (from being legally executed, me and my family, as a penalty for allowing the prisoner to escape; is is not suicide the best way?).

The confusion comes when one does not make the distinction between "eternal salvation" and "temporal deliverance of a tragedy". That's because the word salvation is used for all purposes, and also with its synonymous words such as:
"deliverance"
"healing" and others.

Another common confusion are the words: live, life and living that can be used interchangebly and with different meanings. Example: "Wipe my name (or their name) from the book of the living" Ps. 69:38 This does not mean "unsave them God". It means KILL THEM LORD by taking them from the world of the living.

Understanding this we will give sole GLORY TO GOD for being the author and finisher of our Salvation! He began a good work and is capable of completing it! Glory to His name!
Grace Ambassador
Sherry2
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 11:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you for answering my question. Now I know. I can agree with 4 points, but I absolutely disagree with "L". God is not willing than any should perish but that all should come to eternal life...not all may..but He desires for all to.
Graceambassador
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry2:
Please, read the study below about the meaning of the word "all":
It is posted in my Web site and it is in answer to a gentleman who mentioned the same scripture you mentioned to challenge the "L".

The sarcasm is NOT INTENDED TO YOU. The person in my site to whom this study was addressed to was very challenging of me.
I posted this as it is in my site only for your prayerful consideration.


A gentleman challenged me to answer him how I interpret the scriptures in the New Testament that state that ìGod wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truthî. And he sent me quite a number of scriptures. Well this is the answer I sent him:


ÖThe word "all" in the Bible means "without distinction", " and not " without exception " or, you should know that for following Jesus you would be hated by "all" men. For example:

In Matthew 10:22 our Master says: "and you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake... Logically, there would be no other Christian in the world because all would hate the disciples. Also logically, if our Lord did not exaggerate or lied or tried to spread fear among His followers, and the word all means "all without exception" (which is in every translation of the Bible by the way), then you and I are guilty of hating the poor followers of our Lord. Does that make sense to you?

Now I have to go back to my drawing board. I am trying to build a temple as big as the Temple in Jerusalem who could comport "all" the people from the city. That is because we read in Luke 21:38 that "...early in the morning Jesus went into the Temple, and "all" the people came to Him. He sat down (sitting down was a position of authority of a teacher in the Temple, which may prove that they were inside- italics are mine-) and taught them. I want a Temple as big as that!


How about the baptismal service in Mark 1:5? What a Baptist celebration! It says that..."went out unto him "all" the land of Judea and of Jerusalem, and were baptized of him in the river of Jordan confessing their sins. Too bad Luke 7:30 disputes that stating that the Pharisees and the Lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of Him. This indicates that they were not "all" after all. (This Presbyterian Luke, always spoiling everything! Always messing up a good Baptist baptismal service!). Just when they believed that they had converted and baptized "all" the population of two cities...!

As seen above, when the Bible mentions the word ìallî it means ìall, without distinctionî and not ìall, without exceptionî. The difference is that without distinction means, for example, all men without distinction for race, social class or background. It also means, for example when it says ìhated by all menî it is saying, hated by ìallî men that will be contrary to my message. Thus there is a distinguishing factor, that is ìmen contrary to my message.

My final appeal to common sense is to stress again that if the disciples were to be hated by all men without exception then you and I and everyone else today would be disciple hater. Otherwise Jesus would be prone to exaggerate or a complete liar! Think about it!

*************************************************

There are other scriptures that say that God is the savior of "all men" but the context is "save from a tragedy" and it is also "all without distinction". It is in 1st Tim 4:10-16. Read from verse 1 about a tragic time. Then compare vs 16.
If "savior" in verse 10 means eternal salvation, then it means the same in vs 16. If that is true, then:

Timothy is a savior of himnself and others
We'll be eternally saved by following Timothy's doctrine
We'll be eternally saved by continuing in Tim's doctrine


We know that Timothy is NOT the savior. So, this text is neither speaking that God is the Savior of ALL men without exception nor it is saying that "salvation" here it eternal salvation. It is salvation from the perilous times described in the first verses and repeated to Timothy in 2 Timothy 3.

I hope I did not complicate it even more for anyone! I also hope you understood that the tone of the study was meant for my challenger in the Web site.

Grace Ambassador
Patti
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 11:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear GA,
I have to agree with Sherry. The doctrine of limited atonement (IMO) reeks of a hierarchializing of human beings: That is, those Christ died for, and those He did not. I think I know what you are going to say in answer to this, but when a person (btw, Calvin did not formulate the Tulip, as he died in 1564.) proposes such a doctrine, I cannot see it as being anything other than divisive and exclusive. While it may be true (and I am not saying that it is or is not) that Christ died only for those who believe on Him, I have found that this doctrine causes great grief and consternation among Christians and even overclouds the vision of an all merciful God. One of the two main points of Calvinism is the sovereignty of God. On this I agree avidly. But I find nowhere in Scripture that God agreed to share every detail about His character and motives in saving fallen mankind. In fact, I think it defies the very definition of "trust" and "faith" to try and define these things down to the nth degree. And I feel that is what the "Limited atonement" tries to do--to define God beyond what He has revealed to us in Jesus Christ. Our duty is not to know and reveal the mind of God to others; our duty is to BELIEVE that our salvation has been wrought in its fullness by our Lord and Savior. Anything that stands in the way of giving this saving message to the world, IMO, should be set aside, and I think that this doctrine of limited atonement is one that creates more conflict among Christians than unity.

I also have trouble with the I of the TULIP. Grace is God's infinite mercy toward fallen mankind. It seems to me that those who believe in the TULIP turn grace into a kind of power in the life of the believer, much like the Catholics do, instead of merely being undeserved divine favor. The grace of God is embodied in Jesus Christ. It is only in Him that we experience mercy. Therefore, I do not see how this could be defined as "irresistable." Further, I do not see that this "irresistable grace" even if it is true is even an issue. Our duty is to lift up Jesus Christ and Him crucified. However the Spirit works, through us, around us, in spite of us, will certainly remain a mystery to us, and I do not think we should waste our time speculating upon the mind of God, when He has given us direct combat orders:
1. believe on the Lord Jesus Christ
2. tell others

Faith comes of hearing; therefore, we tell. God somehow uses our incompetence and ineptness to reveal Himself to others. HOW HE DOES THIS IS NOT FOR US TO SPECULATE UPON. Our duty is to obey His command to believe and to tell.

Hoping we can disagree agreeably,
Grace and peace,
Patti
Graceambassador
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 3:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Patti:

We do have a disagreement on that. But I spent hours, months and days studying, analysing, strategizing and now for the past 5 years debating the points. I will not attempt to cover all this material here. But I am WORSE THAN CALVIN on matters of "irresistable Grace and Limited Atonement.

We imply that God owes mankind anything. That's why we have a hard time accepting both. Second, because we were not taught that the Bible does speak about those who "were appointed to disobey" in 1 Peter 2:8 and Romans 9, we think that some disobey because they want to disobey. Then, we believe that God is unjust for not electing some.

I have scriptural basis to defend all within the context of the whole revelation. I never shot my life to BELIEVE AND ACCEPT CALVINISM, I prayed that God called me to be better than him in serving God and if I die in 2000, just as Calvin who died in 1564 is remembered and studied today, I would be remembered at least for 436 years, as well for my cooperation on understanding Revelation. That's why I say that I am worse in emphasis than Calvin on the "I" and the "L".

Now a shocker: Recently I did a study on the descendants of the people of Genisis who came from the "race" that sprung from the marriage between "the sons of God" (accepted by theologians as angels or demons) and the daughters of men. Although there is biblical evidence that this race disappeared completely with the flood, today when I hear accounts of people who will put their sanity on the line that they were raped by "aliens" I remeber Jesus saying "as it was in the days of Noah..." and I think.... Hummmmmm! Here is the devil trying to produce more of the unelect!

(Note that I ministered a lot to people involved in the underworld of the ocult, so it is easy for me to identify the devil offspring)

What does it have to do with Calvin's "I" or "L". First, God will not attempt to save these "race" mentioned above. They're here to fulfill God's purpose as Pharaoh in Romans 9 and as Hitler who fulfilled God's will in making a remnant of the Jews to go back to their promised land (Jeremiah 16), but not to be saved. And, by definition, being a child of the devil, the name Jesus called some demonic Jews in John 6, (please, I am not anti semitic, NOT ALL THE JEWS ARE DEMONIC, Jesus did not die for those who are, Jews and others.)

So, on this aspect, and I know is off most of many people's beliefs, it is easy to understand the "I" and the "L".
Actually without the "I" or the "L" Salvation would not be by Grace. It would be an act of men's will and not the will of God as expressed in John 1, Ephesians 1, the announcement of the angel to the shepards "good will (from God)unto men" and other scriptures.


When I preach, and, sister, I do preach, I know that God will save His elect! "His sheep shall hear His voice". I love people, and sister, I really try to be the most loving preacher that ever lived although I faile a lot. But, I know that my love for some people will be as nothing because it has been decided by God, before the foundation of the world that they are "appointed to disobey", as Judas, for example, whose disobedience and doom had been predicted a long time before it actually happened. Just like Psalm 58:3, where the wicked, unelected, is simply born that way!

Now, a final blow... There is more "us and them", and I do have a study about it, in the Epistles of Paul and the Epistles of John than anyone can ever argue that there is no such a division of people in the eyes of God. Read 1 John 2:19 about "apostates" for example. These people were actually once "members of the church".

I'll stop here because this subject is part of a whole treatise I am developing stating that I go even farther than Calvin on the "I" and the "L".(Farther in emphasis not in extension of knowledge).

I take my experience with people involved in the ocult, such as African deities worship; I take the account of people who see "aliens" all the time, always related to how to research the human race (they're wackos for thinking these are "aliens" they're actually demonic entities just as it happened in the days of the Bible.) Then I remember that Paul says that there are "principalities, powers, and the prince of the power of the air" waging battle in the "heavenly places". The same realm God has blessed us with all kinds of spiritual blessings.
We're free from the powers of the devil, but he still looks for room in our lives where he can influence our decision making process.
Then I read Ephesians 6. I get a good Bible dictionary and analyse the words: WILES AND FIERY DARTS. I am mindful that Paul tells that he is not ignorant of the devil's devices! (1 Cor 2:11). Then I take all these things and look upon it with the Biblical perspective. Well... I learn!

I'm getting too long! What I mean is that there is a race of people out there that is the unelect. I do not know who they are, but their "works will be manifest". Manifest is a word that is slightly different than "revealed". It means something that we have not noticed before that it has been there forever.

No problem.... Your disagreement does not affect my respect and admiration for you and your overall opinions expressed in this forum!

I love you with the Love of the Lord!
I am also simple enough to believe that you love me too!

Grace Ambassador
Patti
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 3:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I do love you! :)
And I thank you for not talking down to me.

I have seen hyper-Calvinism at work, and I find it to be just as divisive and elitist as legalism. In fact an acquaintance of mine got so adamant about TULIP that she basically denied salvation to those who did not accept it fully! God is not a formula. We cannot neatly package salvation into a cute little acronym. And I have see the message of salvation by grace through faith alone become totally overshadowed by an insistence that we must accept one particular formula or another.

I am no theologian, but it does not take a theologian to preach the Gospel. The Gospel is very simple:
"Whoever believes in Me has eternal life." Jesus Christ is the message. It is not necessary for people to believe that Christ died only for the righteous or that His grace is irresistable. It is only necessary for them to believe that Jesus Christ, for reasons unknown to us, perfectly fulfilled the law in our behalf and died the second death for our sinfulness. After being SDA for 24 years, I am very leery of those philosophies that try to define God in human terms. The very foundation of Calvinism--the sovereignty of God--denies that we could ever comprehend the mind of God. Whatever happened to simple faith? To trusting that God, whatever He does, and for whatever reason, will only do what is just and holy and righteous and merciful? Whether or not it is true that Christ died only for those who believe, or whether or not His grace is irresistable, DOES NOT MATTER TO OUR SALVATION. We do not need to know how and why God calls us, only that He has called us.

Another problem I see with those who staunchly support the TULIP is the tendency not to preach the Gospel as urgently (this is NOT a personal reference to you). I find this rather presumptous. Our duty is to preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified to every nation, kindred and tongue and people. This acquaintance that I mentioned before would become incensed when someone questioned her on any part of the TULIP or other things that she considered to be "Gospel truth," eternal hellfire, for example. Then those to whom she was speaking would be branded as infidels, as one who was "not chosen by God," for rejecting God's word if they did not agree with her opinion concerning any part of the TULIP, eternal hell, whether or not one CAN reject Christ, etc. NONE of which is the Gospel of salvation by grace through the faith given us by the Holy Spirit.

That is what I meant above about the L being divisive. And I still maintain that it is. Whether it is truth or not is not an issue. What the issue is is that the doing and dying of Jesus Christ is sufficient for the salvation of mankind. Our duty: to preach the Gospel. It is not our duty to define how the Holy Spirit inspires others to hear and accept the Good news of salvation in Jesus Christ.

I hope you understand what I am saying and take none of this personally.

Grace and peace,
Patti
Graceambassador
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 4:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Patti!
Fear Not! It is I....

On the positive side, the "I":

I hear accounts from missionaries that they went in some remote place of the world that never a "christian" had laid his foot on and they find people worshipping God the same way we worship.

Then I witness, every month, people who hated God and by some tragedy in their lives are brought to their knees and are genuinely saved... I heard an account just yesterday from our mission in Brazil that through witnessing her 5 year old being crushed under a big truck, this lady who despised the Church came to her knees calling Christ the Lord of her life (24 hours later...). This is what irresitable Grace is all about. God causing things to happen in the lives of the elect that they can be called attention to God and His love.

I look upon these events in the light of the Bible (experience must be approved by the Bible to be accepted; there must be a Bible pattern) and "voi-la", there it is... Paul had a catastrophic event to be saved, he lost his eye site and apparently, by his words, we can infer that that followed him all through his life. He tells one Church that they would, if possible, give him their very eyes...

I look and Jairus, the jailer at Paul and Silas prison, the centurion at the cross, all these people who had an encounter with their Savior out of a tragedy. The I read in Romans 11 about the gentiles in whose hearts God wrote his law, without a preacher, Cornelius, the Eunuch in the chariot, odd encounters, no preacher, no JUST AS I AM sung in the background, no big crusades where people were coming down from the balconies, the bleachers, etc. and I have to conclude that when God wants to save His elect HE WILL DO HIS PLEASURE! (Isaiah 46:10).

Then, I speak with prisoners who heard the gospel in a dream. My pastor friend from Brazil who had a visitation when in a Hospital in Angola after being hit by a mortar, during the war in Africa in the 70's. A red-haired lady dressed in Nurse attire preached to him and led him to Christ in an irresitable way (his words)! Later he found out that this person never existed neither in the war torn hospital nor in the neighborhood. Note that "whites" in Angola were the Portuguese. And they would be killed by the communist blacks. So the likelyhood of a lady nurse was almost zero due to the risk involved! He hated God. He resented God. Now, he is a pastor of 22000 due to that "lady"... IRRESISTABLE GRACE. My friend had to lose almost his entire tibya (spell?) and his ability to even walk, with ugly scars in his body to get to know and love God!

I am very excited about this subject because for me IT IS GOD'S GRACE!!!

No wonder I humbly and undeservedly am called Grace Ambassador. I take the message all over. I make Calvin's tulip to be something that people can PRAISE GOD about! Without being Calvinist!
I am a Grace-nist. He saves his own! He blesses! He did in the past and will do until we're all eternally with Him!

Grace Ambassador
Graceambassador
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 4:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Patti:
You probably wrote your response while I was writing mine! Great!!
Thank you!

You are right! I do not like "isms". Example: Calvin is okay. Calvinism is not! Pentecostal is okay! Pentecostalism is not!

Considering what you said about your acquaintances I really understand you.
What a difference with my position!

I can tell you that my certainty that God has those whom He will save is THE PRIMARY REASON FOR ME TO PREACH NOW!!!

The reason why I feel that God saves through preaching, and He is not telling me who the "unelect" is, prompts me to preach to everything that moves!

I am so excited about preaching! God Saves! Jesus Saves! He saves SDA, muslims, catholics, baptists, pentecostals, methodists, prebyterian, vegetarians, icecreamerians, coldaspinguintalearians. He saves! I love to see people being saved because I link their experience with what God designed from the foundation of the world! I see God's promises in fulfillment! I see God's words in action!

What a difference from most Calvinists!

We discussed in the "predestination" forum before about this. Remember? I told you that "election" is not for us to sit and watch. God has not called us to watch His plan! In fact He called us to be the "perpetrators" of His plan! He gives us partnership allowing many to be saved by our witnessing, our lives, our words and deeds, giving us the eternal honor of being useful to him!

Although I believe the atonement is limited to the elect, the Bible (Paul) says that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord! Whether those who will come to this point will do it to their doom or in Salvation is up to God. I believe that this verse says that "every tongue" and is in context with things above the earth and under the earth! Even demons will publically recognized Christ as whom He said He was!!! The word of Christ is foolishness to those who perish! For us is the Power of God!

I preach! I'm ready to preach now to anything that moves! Here comes Samuel, my golden retriever! I will preach to him again!!! (he is presbyterian since he refuses to get into the tub to bathe; he prefers to be sprinkled)...
I am very excited about the subject of God saving because I know he saves! His word is never coming back void! What a pity that your friends never experienced such joy of seeing a low life, skid road, drug addict, wife beater, child molester, lying cheat, covenant breaker coming to Christ in tears and calling Him Savior and Lord and then becoming the best citizen in town! What a joy! What a joy!

I had tears in my eyes as I was writing the experiences on the last post! I know that God will Save. I know HE WILL USE US TO BE HIS INSTRUMENTS! WHAT A JOY!!! WHAT AN HONOR!

I've got to stop! I get really excited about preaching. A friend of mine says that he can believe I believe what I believe and then if I do not preach every now and then, I fell like I'm dying! I can't believe that people feel that there is no urgency to preach! What a tragedy!

Grace Ambassador
Sherry2
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 7:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grace Ambassador, four posts up I read what you wrote in regards to the "L". I had gotten out my Bible to dig a little deeper into this. "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son"...The World....in another place it says He reconciled the world unto Himself...and that is why we are to be ambassadors of peace. To subscribe to the "l" would put me back in chains again. I spent most of my younger years convinced I was predestined for hell and there was nothing I could do about it. I wanted to follow Him...I did what I knew but I always had that sense that my end would be hell. It was understanding that salvation was for all who would receive Him, and that the devil lies in our ears to keep us from receiving Christ, and understanding the gospel. And as I learned to apply the Word of God, I began to break free from chain after chain that held me. I found freedom in Him as I read through Hebrews. When I read what you wrote 4 posts up, what comes over me is that overwhelming dread I had growing up, and it says "See, it is hopeless." No, I do not see the "L" offering hope unto a dying world. Not a bit. If the term "world" is used in Scripture as it is to denote those who can receive this gift, than I believe it. To do otherwise would be doing mental gymnastics like I did once upon a time in order to believe Ellen White. I'm sorry, but that idea of limited atonement repulses me down to the depths.
Graceambassador
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry2

That's okay! It used to repulse me too! Please, I beg you, read this entire post!
And you're not alone, this is the most controversial of all the 5 points!

The word "world" is another word that we need to be careful with. Logic must be applied in studying the scriptures. Remember that God loved the world but Jesus said in John 17 that we're not of this world! Then I must not be loved... See...

You were given, as most people, I admit, the wrong idea about "election" specially on "L". What do you even worry? You're saved and that settles it!

Preachers go around teaching TULIP in a very negative way. One of the best evangelists the world has ever known was a Tulip believer. His name Charles Spurgeon.

To me the idea of "universalism" that everybody is saved because God loved the "world" is very dangerous. Then I would not preach. Why would I if everybody is already saved?
You see, the answer for Limited atonement cannot and must not be "Unlimited atonement" because then, we fall into the dangers of Universalism, that preaches that Jesus' sacrifice extends to all and is more powerful than any sin (which it is), therefore ALL are automatically saved.

God loved the world yes! Jesus message to Nicodemus was the "world" and "whosoever beliveth" in opposition to the Jews who believed to be exclusive only. It was never intended to be an open door, where every thing goes!

Please, understand: Regardless of what you have been taught, You're saved! I know that deep down in your heart there is no doubt in your mind regarding this. The Holy Spirit garantees this.
But, the very idea the there are people in hell today, even as I write, is because some would not be saved! Not because they did not chose God. If God wanted to save them, He is sovereign, he would have saved them.

You are correct! If one is to go around and preach the "L" apart from other biblical truths, let him be anathema!
In fact, if anyone attempts to teach any biblical truth apart from other biblical truths, let them all be anathema!
None of the elements of TULIP is in and of itself a single truth. Emphasizing one truth in detriment of another leads to error! That's why the SDA, JW, Mormons and other are in error!

The Bible is a whole, wholesome revelation. God will be harsh with those who try to deduct from it and to add to it. I would not be the first neither was Calvin.

If the "L" is over emphasized with no proper BIBLICAL CONTEXT, sister Sherry2 makes your statement correct about the "L" not helping a dying world.

We cannot sacrifice context and the real meaning of Bible words in detriment of other truths because they are hard to accept. But we MUST deal with the context and face what it says. Example, it is hard for so many people that God said that He loved Jacob but HATED Esau! So they try to exegete it away from the Bible over emphasizing God's love. So one truth over emphasized is error!
Others cannot accept the fact that God PLACED an evil spirit to torment Saul... So they come up with the lame explanation of the "permissive will of God". They just added to the text something that is not there! Dangerous. God actually did things that we find strange in the Bible! But He is God! Some people find it repulsive that God would allow His people to kill so many in the OT, including women and children. Then they come up with the explanation about God using man's evil character to fulfill His plan. Again, the permissive will of God inserted where the Bible is silent about it. Then they read about Judas, the son of perdition, commiting suicide and they reason: if he had looked upon Jesus as Peter did, he would have been forgiven...Again, where is the evidence, the Biblical contextual evidence. We cannot add to the Biblical text a reasoning so convenient so as to apease our own fears and take God off the hook! He does not need that! There is more proof of God's love in the Bible that we could write in any other book, as the song says, even if all the skies were paper, if all the seas ink, all the pillars pen and all men writers... See... there are many things repulsive in the Bible, but the Love of God is above and beyond them all!

In the end, through the ENTIRE Revelation we see God's love and doing on behalf of HIMSELF, FOR HIS NAME SAKE, seeking to bring mankind back to Him, imparting His righteousness on us through Jesus.

I pray that I have not given the impression that I TEACH "L" without proper context!

Likewise, I hope that you read ALL my posts to have a feel for how seriously I take BIBLICAL CONTEXT and SISTEMATIC THEOLOGY.

To end this, let me summarize what I said so you do not think that I am somehow talking you down:
You are right in your concern if "L" is preached out of Biblical context. And there is plenty of context.
You are correct about God lovind the world, but not all the world will be saved


Thanks for your confidence in expressing your concern. I say it before the Lord that it honored me!

In His Love
Grace Ambassador
Lydell
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 7:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti, I too have met folks like you were referring to. I'm reminded of a story a friend told me of a disussion one day in her Sunday School class. Someone was commenting on feeling badly about not following a prompting to speak the gospel to someone they knew, and that they didn't feel that they had been as faithful as they should about witnessing. The instant answer of one individual brought vigorous agreement from the rest, "well I wouldn't worry about it so much. If God wants them saved they will be. Why should you cast your pearls before swine." That's pretty sick!

GA, with all the words that you have said, it still seems to me that what the underlying message is is still this: If God wants them saved they'll be saved, and the rest are swine that God never loved to begin with. That seems to me to be a very small picture of the love of God. It flies totally in the face of the great commission and the rest of the NT. "God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved." "Behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man hears my voice and opens the door I will come in to him." "We have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world."
Graceambassador
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 9:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell:
(if this indeed is your name...)

Please, there is no need to put words in my mouth.
Also, The scripitures that you quoted are out of Biblical context.
The "behold I am at the door and knock" is for the ALREADY saved since it is to a church!

Second, what does the scripture "God has not sent his son into the world to codemn the world but that the world through him might be saved" mean to you? That ALL the world will be saved?

Nice that you address to me. I'd like to know you. Can you tell me a little bit about yourself your beliefs? I hope to be able to interact with you and I certainly hope that you read ALL MY POSTS, before passing judgement on my writings!
Again, I'd love to know the real you! I am willing and eager to learn from you!
If you wish to know about me, I speak of what I am and my credentials in many posts in the forum!

It will be nice also if you spend the same amount of time in the issue as I spent since I HAD THE SAME OPINION YOU DO ABOUT IT! Five years perhaps!!!

I am willing to deal in view of Sistematic Theology, any or all scriptures you give me. But please, keep a certain level of open mindness!
You have not shown that! Did you read what I wrote about God's love. Do not complain with me if Romans 9 says that God will be merciful to whom he wishes and compassionate to whom he wishes! I cannot apoligize that Romans 9 says that God says that God loved Jacob but hated Esau... I cannot be apoligetic in face of the fact that in Romans 1 we read that GOD GAVE SOME A REPROBATE MIND so they will commit themselves to all kinds of filth! I do not have to defend God for inspiring Peter to say in 1 Peter 2:8 that "they rejected Christ as the Cornerstone, and they were appointed (selected) to do so..."
Tell the writers of the N.T., ultimately the Holy Spirit, what you told me!

As to the Great Commision, the same one who pronounced it said" "Narrow is the gate". So HE is the same that said that "He had never known" some of the hypocrites in Matthew 7:23. Now, consider this: Jesus WAS GOD. As God, he knows all things, specially in the time that He is talking about since He will be the glorified Jesus. How can an ALL KNOWING GOD not know some people? Was Jesus lying or exagerating? OF COURSE NOT! He never cared for this people in the first place! Compare this scripture with ! Cor. 8:3 and you will notice that "know" here is the same as acceptance. All within BILBLICAL CONTEXT.
By the way are you obeying the Great Commission. If so how? I can answer that if you wish, anytime, for God's glory and not mine! Can you?

See, not need to guess "underlying messages"! I give you SCRIPTURES WITHIN CONTEXT. What do you have to show for yourself other than detect "underlying messages"?

By the way, I am glad to know that you can read "underlying messages" in peoples' statements!
I really need this type of "fairness" around me sometime!

I'd love to interact with you! Under the auspices of the Holy Spirit and the light of the Word of God! I am longing to hear from you, know who you are and how you're fulfilling the Great Commission which appears to be so dear to you!

Grace Ambassador
Lydell
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 1:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Geez, get a grip will ya?! What happened to the "grace" part of your name anyway?

I'm really sorry if my post came across to be accusing you! personally of holding the attitude of "forget the swine". I'm just saying that the whole teaching of Christ's death only being intended to save "some and the others He created to fry in hell forever" leaves an underlying, unspoken attitude of "why should I care about the swine". To me, if one holds that belief, then they certainly wouldn't care a flip about those who are suffering because of the results of their own sinful lives or those who are unsaved and lying on their death beds. It would seem to me that the attitude would just have to creep in of, "oh well, they deserve what they are getting, it's not my problem." Didn't mean to imply that you hold that view. okay?

"Lydell:
(if this indeed is your name...)"
Geee, yeah, you got another one to offer? No one ever knows how to spell it much less pronounce it! That's the only one I've ever had! And combined with the last name, I really have trouble!

As for the "behold I stand at the door and knock" having a meaning for the church. I could concede that that is arguably possible.

As for Romans 9 supporting your contention, nope I will most definitely not agree. The context is referring to God having chosen the nation of Israel out of all the other nations for a specific purpose. I don't see that it is referring to individuals at all. Read it again, both the chapters preceding and following.

As for knowing something about me. I accepted Christ as savior when I was 7. I'm far from perfect, far from all knowing, my gifting is not teaching. But I've never turned and walked away from the Lord since I first accepted Him. I'm 46 now. Have studied the Bible during that time. Am still studying the word. Have already examined the belief you are presenting several times before and have flatly rejected it as not being what the scriptures teach.

I am a simple person, so if you want to get into a hi brow theological discussion, maybe someone else will be willing to accomodate you. I just let the Bible speak to me simply what it says. I figure if I have to get minutely into examining the meaning of a particular word of a verse to understand the meaning of the verse, then likely I am attempting to make it fit a preconceived idea that isn't measuring up. I think my understanding of a verse should fit with all the rest of the general teaching on a subject in the word. If my verse doesn't fit with the rest, after closer examination, then I am forced to conclude that my understanding of the one or two verses is out of kilter, rather than the teaching of the rest of the body of scripture being wrong.

Does God know who will be saved? Certainly, He did so from the foundation of the world. He "foreknew" who would be saved. Do I believe He is still freely offering salvation to all so that they can freely choose or reject Him? Absolutely, without any shred of doubt for that is what the whole teaches. "Let all who are willing come."

".....he predestined to become sons of God..." Who? "even those who believe on His name". He predestined that only those who would believe on his name would become sons of God. That's part of the incomparible love of God. Even tho He knows some will reject Him, He doesn't smash them out of existence.

Am I obeying the great commission? Yes, to the best of my meager ability, and with an abundance of the grace of the Holy Spirit at this time I am doing what the Lord puts before me to do. Do I have room for improvement? Oh my word, absolutely!! Am I going to reach every person on the face of the planet? Hardly. But then that wasn't what he was telling the disciples either. They were to go and do what they could do where they went. Same for me. The seeds are to be scattered abundantly to all, and all have an equal chance to accept or reject the offer.

Quite obviously I am not going to change your mind on this topic and you aren't going to change mine. Anyone else out there want to hop into a deep theological argument with GA?
Graceambassador
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell:
Thanks for answering my questions!

Why did I ask a confirmation of your name? Well... I've ministering via WEB for about 3 years now. I know a little about people who want to use disagreements, which are natural, to inject false teaching using aliases. I'm glad that you can say before the Lord that you're not one of them!

You hold the old Arminian (whether you are Arminian I do not know) view of "corporate" election. I hold the view of "individual election". We're half way there based upon your take on Romans 9. BTW I read Romans entirely to come to the conclusion that it is "individual" election because of other portions of Paul's writings. Especially because when it came to Pharaoh he fulfilled a corporate purpose but AS AN INDIVIDUAL. So did Judas!

We're also differ on the meaning of the "foreknowledge" of God. But we're not far either!

The Grace part of my name remains intact! Paul was the Grace revelator and he told once the church in Corinth not to pray for a man so "the devil would take his body, so his soul would be saved". So, I am no better than Paul!

If we can't discuss theology here, then I'd suggest that we should only discuss what is in the "underlying statement". Do not fret yourself for my insistence on your words! We Christians have hurt more people because or "assumptions" of what they mean and think than than any other group of people. Myself being the chief perpetrator. I just wanted to make you reflect as I reflected in the past!

I just pray that both of us are willing to learn continually from God.

I am glad that when you stated:
GA, with all the words that you have said, it still seems to me that what the underlying message is is still this....:

although you used the phrase "words that you have said" you now tell me that you did not mean that you felt as though I am like the people you mention who do the things that you and ME ALIKE disaprove!

I'm glad you do not prefer not to discuss theology. I bet that is what EGW used to say when people showed her mistakes in the Bible! Perhaps we should start a teenage chat and talk about Christian heavy metal groups, or just tell each other a few jokes... Do you know a good joke? I just wish you would read my posts before writing me. Just as I read yours before I wrote you!

Hey....don't mind me. I'm just an almost 50 minister who wants to be truthful to the Gospel!

Be Blessed according to Ephesians 1:3

Grace Ambassador
Colleentinker
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 5:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just want to say that although I do know many people post with pseudonyms on the web, and even though I know a name spelled much like Lydell's has been used as a pseudonym at times, and even though I cannot absolutely say I know who people are on this forum without actually meeting them, still I believe that the Lydell on this forum is who she says she is based on certain interactions I've had off the web. (Wow, was that a never-ending sentence or what? Not bad for an English teacher, huh?)

I appreciate Grace Ambassador's caution, however. I also know that people have used the names of forum members to post incognito. We're never completely safe against such cowardly and corrupt behavior.

Deception is anathema to me, but we can't always avoid it in a medium such as cyberspace. We pray continually for God's protection, and I am extremely grateful for the insight of people on this forum.

With deep thanks to you who are committed to truth and with prayers for us all,
Colleen

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