| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Welcome, Pat Darnell. Enjoyed your post. Hope you stick around. | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
Hi, Pat Darnell! It's good to see you here! Thanks for your great post. Colleen | ||
| Del Star |
Hi Pat! You have had a great influence in my life. So much of what you have said, I have seen but wanted to deny. You gave me the courage to call 'sin by its rightful name'. You will notice that I have now slipped over into the 'former' forum. I'm getting there. Thanks Pat. Jesus Is Enough | ||
| George |
Patti and Darnell, Words are very interesting things, they can be twisted into many different forms and be very much misunderstood, one word can be written and another read, this is just the way with words. When Bruce said he thought belief too was a gift from God, and you went on to say that salvation is a gift from God, I thought you too said belief was a gift from God. Then I said , if belief was a gift from God, how does He pick and choose who gets it. Then you said that salvation is God work. You see how we were talking about two different things. While to be saved we must believe, belief in and of its self is not salvation. Some where it says, Choose you this day whom you will serve. Since we have to believe to serve, it could read, Choose you this day whom you will believe. If we believe or not is up to us, it is our choice. If belief was a gift then everyone would believe and then what would be the point. However if the ABILITY to believe is a gift, we are still free to chose if we want to or not. These are two very different things, as you can see. What is the reason for the whole human experiment? I think it was to show that a people with an inborn ědisadvantageî could still make the right choice. Take a look at Eve, she had a choice of which tree to eat from. Adam too had a choice, to eat or not to eat. Cain had a choice, offer a lamb or something else. We are told if we believe in Christ we will have everlasting life, this implies that if we donít believe, we will not have life, again a choice. The fact that some will be taken and others not shows that not everyone will believe. If belief in and of its self is a gift from God, how does He choose who will get it. Maybe some that donít would have if they had the chance, somehow this does not seem just, it is not what a loving God would do, He would make sure that EVERYONE had a chance. Now, lets get to salvation. It says, if I believe I will be saved and if I donít I am condemned already. This would imply that if I STOP believing, I WILL BE IN THE RANKS OF THE UNBELIEVERS AND THUS CONDEMNED. There is the choice again, to continue to believe or not. When I believe and am saved ,I donít think that I still have to worry about sins anymore. This does not mean I will not do anything that is contrary to Gods will, it just means that I donít have to worry myself about it, because ALL these things are paid for. This does not mean that I can do whatever I want with out regard for what is Gods will. But, why should I be filled with self-condemnation for something that is all taken care of, that is as if it never was? Self-condemnation does not make for a happy person, but the freedom of not worrying about things that Christ has taken care of does. I have gone on long enough for now, and what I really wanted to say is, it is my choice whether I want to believe or not, His gift is the gift of that choice. If we have the gift of choice, how can we be predestined. Just because He knows the choice we will make does not mean that He made it for us. Right? George | ||
| George |
Patti Another thought on faith, if I don't believe in Christ, how would I ever have faith in Him or anything He said? George | ||
| George |
Patti, Hi, it has been awhile, do you want to pick up where we left off? The forum went down before I was able to get an answer to the above. Interested in what you have to say.---George Hay, it does work!!!!!!!! | ||
| Cindy |
Hi George, As far as faith and belief...I have faith in Jesus' Finished Work For Me; and like you say, it gives me a freedom in not worrying about things Christ has taken care of!! My 'work' is to ABIDE IN HIM, REST IN HIM always. Belief is so tied into obedience. See Hebrews 3 and 4... Belief=Obedience Disbelief=Disobedience So, to be obedient... is what? It sounds like it is to Believe! Believe in Jesus, Believe HE HAS RECONCILED US TO GOD and FINISHED THE WORK needed. We believe that we can now REST IN HIM! Believing is tied into ENTERING HIS REST... "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Could this also be translated... Be obedient to the proclamation of the Gospel, Christ crucified for you! and believe it fully!? So is it 'work' to keep remembering this all-surpassing grace? I like the word Oswald Chambers used a lot, abandonment... Can I just abandon myself to Jesus every day? And He has promise to never leave us. His gift of peace and rest every day of the week... So, I guess my prayer could be like the father of the demon-possessed boy brought to Jesus for healing in Mark 9, "Yes Lord, I believe, Help thou my unbelief!" As ever, in debt to His Mercy, Cindy | ||
| George |
Hi Cindy, I don't know if you have been following everything that I have been saying about faith, belief and works or not. But the thing I have been trying to get across is that for me some of them have gotten very mixed up and imposable to get. In my mind it makes sense that you have to believe before you can have faith, because I tryed to do it the other way around and it never worked. In almost 40 years it never worked!! I will admit there is a very fine line betweem belief and faith, but belief comes first. Works is another thing. While I have never thought there was anything I could do to work my way to heaven, I very strongly believe that while He saved me IF I WANT TO BE SAVED, it is I that must believe before I can be. So I MUST DO something to be saved. To make that more clear I like to think it is something in my mind that I have to do to be saved and not with my hands. Now we come to the thing of sins. How can I be truley free if I always have to worry about every little thing that I do. Is it right or wrong. Did I ask forgiveness or did I forget to. If I have to feel guilty for every little thing that I might do and worry about forgiveness,Why that is more work than litteraly floging my back untill blood runs down to the ground. So I choose to believe that He really forgave ALL my sins and I no linger have to worry about them. You notice that I said He forgave and not will forgive them. I don't seem to have been able to convince anyone of all this. Nor has anyone been able to convince me that I am wrong. All I know is that I see some here that are so upset about the things they do that they can't possably be happy and really free. It shows up in there wrighting. Think about it, It is more work to be all worried and guilty about "sins" that we might do and may have forgotten to confess, than to actually try to work our way to heaven. Quite a thought, right? And for predestionation? there are so many places we are given a choice, I don't see how that can be possable. If you can see that any of my thoughts are wronf let me know. The best to all----George | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, Cindy and George, Concept this by Jeff Harken in chapt 16 of his book, "Grace plus Nothing": "True obedience is no mere performance of mechanical laws, (to obtain a blessing or to avoid punishment), but true obedience is a response to God's grace, empowered by his Spirit." How can that be put any clearer or plainer? I think an investment in that book would be a worthwhile investment of one's time. Good to see you guys are getting the password thing figured out and back into the discussion! Maryann | ||
| Susan |
Hi George! I'm enjoying your comments. Might I add a few thoughts? Eph.2:4,5, "But because of his great love for us, GOD, who is rich in mercy, MADE us alive with Christ even when we were DEAD in transgressions- it is by grace you have been saved." (emphasis mine) Perhaps this has been mentioned before but if we're dead, how are we capable of choosing? A dead person can't do a thing. But God can regenerate someone so that they will accept the invitation of grace. I think the bigger issue is the sovereignty of God, not predestination or free-will. I don't think we're robots, but I believe in a God that can and does have a perfect plan. Either we accept that it's totally a "God thing" from the start or we assume a role in our salvation. Eph. 1:4,5 says, "For he chose us before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will." I looked up this word Predestined. In this verse it means more than just a "foreknowledge" as some like to explain. The Greek actually means "foreordained, to chose beforehand"(I also checked with a translator at the United Bible Society) While I think it's important to chose to have faith in God and believe in Jesus Christ, I think it's God that gives his people the gift of faith to believe. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph.2:8,9. "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth..." James 1:17,18. So, if faith is a gift of God, and every good or perfect gift is from the Father, wouldn't that mean that our faith (through which we are saved)is a gift from God and comes from Him not within ourselves? All of this said, let me end by saying that while these issues are important, Christians should not divide over them. I am comfortable with my understanding of reformed theology. It is not always the popular persuasion, but I believe it to be very biblical. The important thing is that salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. I hope my opinions have helped a bit. I'd be happy to discuss this topic further. There's a great book "Almighty Over All, Understanding the Sovereignty of God" by R.C.Sproul Jr. Anything by him or his dad would be an excellent choice for a scholarly work on this subject, or any other biblical topic for that matter. Blessings George! Susan | ||
| Cindy |
George, Hello again! I have been reading your posts, but may have not have followed your train of thought completely on the distinction you make between faith and belief. They seem so close to me... a RELIANCE, a TRUST in Jesus' finished work for me! Jesus at times commends someone's 'great faith' and at times is amazed at someone's "lack of faith'. Paul talks about 'weak faith'. Also, in Hebrews it says that without Faith it is impossible to please God... And how do we please God or do the Work that He requires but to BELIEVE in the One He has sent--Jesus! But we are also said to be given 'a measure of faith'; and that Jesus is the 'author and perfector of our faith'...so it sounds like at least a small amount of faith is given as a gift... and that by trust and obedience to that BELIEF IN JESUS, more faith is produced so that we go beyond a 'weak faith' to a stronger reliance on JESUS at all times. That said, it is still Christ's work alone that saves me! I have a tendancy to even trust in MY 'spirituality', MY faith, MY single-minded devotion to Christ compared to how I see others around me. I constantly need to be reminded that the Good News of the Gospel is not about me, it's about JESUS!! I agree with you that to worry over our sins is a very burdensome thing! That's where I see a difference betweeen how the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin--all the time encouraging us to keep looking to Jesus for our hope and complete forgiveness; and how Satan taunts us to despair about our sins...He is the accuser, always making us worry about not measuring up, OR else, making us proud of how we think we have measured up compared to other people! Under Grace always, Cindy p.s. Greetings Maryann! | ||
| Cindy |
Hi Susan! You found some good Scriptures! Thanks! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Patti |
Cindy, I am with you. Faith is believing. It is believing in things of which one has no tangible evidence. Hebrews 11:1 gives a concise definition. Good to see you all back. Anyone suffer withdrawal pains? :) Patti | ||
| Cindy |
Hi Patti! Good to see your name again! Yes, I did feel somewhat lost without FAF!! But then I did have more time to check out the 'Adventist Today' internet site; looked in (silently!) on their forum conversations...:-)) and read some back articles from the magazine, which I had only read once before. Also, kept up with the news from Toronto G.C. Session... In His Mercy Alone, Cindy | ||
| Breezy |
It's funny but even tho' I'd only found you guys a few days before the crash, I literally felt like I'd lost my best friend. I do have a life but it sure didn't feel like it. All of this discussion is really encouraging me to look into issues myself and not just fall back on standard church teachings. Susan, I agree about last day events, I believe God led me to this forum 'cause I was too focused on end-times and not Jesus. Thanks guys! no longer a lost puppy! Wendy | ||
| Colleentinker |
Hi, Wendy! It makes me so happy to read your line, "No longer a lost puppy!" God is so good. He promised to be a father to the fatherless, a husband to the widow, etc. He even knows how and when to find us friends when we're ready for them. Isn't it wonderful to know we are secure?! Colleen | ||
| Cindy |
Wendy, Hi! Again, glad you're here... I think what you said about JESUS needing to be our focus is so true. I read this once from Oswald Chambers: "The test of any teaching is its' estimate of Jesus Christ. The teaching may sound wonderful and beautiful, but watch lest it have at center the dethroning of Jesus Christ." In grace always, Cindy | ||
| Cindy |
Colleen, Hi! I always appreciate your encouraging words. I love those promises of God to be all that we need! I read a book a few years ago called "A Grace Disguised" by Gerald Sittser. He recounts the tragic story of an automobile accident which took the life of his daughter, his wife, and his mother. He survived along with his other three children. It is an interesting book, exploring the 'why did God allow this?' guestion. He does not downplay the horribleness and utter despair he's felt over his situation, but he does finally write: "I simply do not see the bigger picture, but I choose to believe that there is a bigger picture and that my loss is part of some wonderful story authored by God Himself." "I desperately need and desire the Grace of God. Grace has come to me in ways I did not expect. Quietness, contentment, and simplicity have gradually found a place in the center of my soul... I have slowly learned where God belongs and have allowed Him to assume that place--at the Center of life rather than at the periphery." Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Wendy, Welcome! With this bit of down time and the fact that the computer I'm on temporarily is VERY tempormental, I have not had a chance to say hi. So, HI :-) Got a lot of catch up reading to do when I get home (from FAFland) today. Hi Patti, Withdrawl pains is the understatement of the century ;-(! I have withdrawl so bad that it will take me a month to stand up straight again;-))! It seems by the comments, that Richard went out of his way to select appropriate passwords for us. Big pat, pat, pat on his back for that! When we get to heaven, we can compare our password jewels, huhhh? Maryann PS...Greetings to you too, Cindy. Girl oh girl, do I ever have a story to share with you!! | ||
| George |
Hi Susan, I enjoyed your post, it has given me lots to think about. I wish my fingers had the command of the english language that my mouth does, I could then get my ideas across better, or maybe I would just get in more trouble. ;-) I geuss I will just have to make due with what I've got, so here goes. Keep in mind what I have said about one person saying something and the other person hearing something compleatly different, and apply that to reading also. Most of the verses you have used to show predestionation I can use to show there is none in the sense we usualy use the word. Take these verses for example: Eph. 1:4,5 says, "For he chose us before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.---" This to me means that the human race has been chosen for the experiment as apposed to some other race on another planet, and not anyone of us in particular. And to continue, "In love He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will." Here, "us to be adopted" to me says that the adoption will take place in the future, not that it has already taken place. To me this sentance says ----In love for us He has decided to adopt us because of what His Son did. And He did this just because it made Him happy and wouldn't have done it if it hadn't. In other words, this whole plan was predestioned, not our individual adoption. Whether we are adopted is still our choice, and we will be, if we let Him. So you see these verses can mean something very different than the way you are using them. It all depends on what the words----us to be adopted---really mean. Take the rest of the verses you used and see if you can back up MY point of view and see what you come up with. To do this question the meaning of statements you have always took for granted you understood the meaning of. And always remember I am not trying to change your belief in anything, all I want is for you to understand my point of view. After that you can change your mind if you want to, or not, it is your CHOICE. Always having a Choice--------George |
