| Author | Message | ||
| Susan |
Thanks for your comments George. But you haven't convinced me to change my theology yet! I see where you're coming from and respect your interpretations. I checked out the other verses, and I still see them as I always have. Please excuse the fact that I'm not a great scholar. I'm just an average gal who loves bible study! To be honest, the more I study scripture, the more reformed I become. Anyway, this is a huge debate that many fine minds have dealt with. I think the important thing is to always pray that God will guide us in His truths as we study. Also, it's nice to have a good bible dictionary, concordance and other such bible aids, handy when we are studying. Rolaant Mckenzie,(former SDA who posts here sometimes) has a wonderful website, www.gospeloutreach.net that can provide some good info. on reformed theology. You really should check out the book I mentioned by R.C.Sproul Jr., I'm half way through it and it's so great! In Christ alone, Susan | ||
| George |
Hi Susan, I am no great scholar eather, I am just a guy that totaly gave up on the bible and everything to do with it until just a few months ago. I wouldn't say that I am in the reform church or any other for that matter. When I read some of the verses in an argument sometimes I see them a little differently than I have ever seen them before, and the "light" goes on. It is so nice when that happens!!!! Do you really see how the verses we talked about could be read differently? That is great if you do, then I know that I explained myself well. We will have to talk again as I enjoy your views. Cindy, I read your post and I may be able to concede that we are given a little faith, but I am not sure yet. I will have to think about it for a while. My best to you both----George | ||
| Patti |
Hi, Susan! I agree with much of what you say. As a matter of fact, I am reading an RC Sproul book right now, "Faith Alone." You wrote, "I'm just an average gal who loves bible study! To be honest, the more I study scripture, the more reformed I become." I can say this is true of my experience also. The more I study, the better the pieces fit together, the less contradictions are apparent. Salvation is God's work; our "work" is to trust that He is faithful, and that He will save us. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Susan |
George, What a testimony you are to the power of God's word. I think it's such a blessing to have you on this forum. I remember when you first started posting. What a change God has done in you! Yes, I see how you could read these verses and have your opinions of them. I think you raised some great points. I just happen to differ from you in my opinions. We're still sibilings in the kingdom though, aren't we? Siblings don't always agree or get along, but they still belong to the same family! Perhaps I came on to strong with the reformed theology "stuff". I am a Christian first and foremost! There are just several different varities/persuassions of Christianity. We all have to let God's spirit lead us, through His word, to a place where HE wants us to be. As long as where we end up is within the pale of orthodoxy, I don't think there's reason to worry. Thanks George, you have certainly given me food for thought! Patti, glad to know someone else has an interest in R.C. too! I just can't get enough of his work. His ministry has a fantastic monthly devotional booklet called Table Talk. It's one of the best I've seen. The other day I picked up his book, "The Mystery of the Holy Spirit", can't wait to start it. Let me know how "Faith Alone" is. Thanks for your post. It's nice to know that sometimes I can say something, that someone can actually understand! | ||
| Patti |
I need some help tonight. And I don't know if any of you can help me. Not that you are not wonderful people and awesome friends, but I just don't think that you will have the answers that I need. I have heard them all already. I am going to be perfectly and rawly honest here. I hope someone will understand. Our neighbor's son passed away tonight after over a month of struggle following a car accident. I prayed for him, asked you to pray also, but yet I always had this nagging voice accusing me, "Oh, ye of little faith," feeling that our prayers would not be answered. So was my lack of faith responsible for God deciding not to strengthen this young man, enabling him to continue living? If I had believed more strongly, if I had fasted or prayed more often and more sincerely, would God have then actually heard my prayer? I know what you are going to say, that God heard and answered, but the answer was no. (That is not a biblical argument, btw.) That we should always pray that His will be done, whatever it is. But, since He is sovereign, is there any chance of His will NOT being done? So I must assume that this boy's death was His will. And I also must assume that it doesn't really matter whether we pray or not. God is no puppet just sitting up there waiting for us to pull His string. On the other hand, He tells us to ask. WHY? For our own sakes? To keep us from going mad from our inability to control anything at all? WHY ARE WE ASKED TO PRAY WHEN ALL THINGS THAT HAPPEN ARE HIS WILL ANYWAY? DOES IT DO ANY GOOD TO PRAY, except, perhaps, to focus our thoughts heavenward, on things higher than this earth? Or is it just an excuse for our inability or unwillingness to do something productive? It is so easy to tell someone you will pray for them; much more difficult to jump in with them in the muck and mire and HELP them. I am not asking for answers; as I said, I have heard them all already. And I have probably shocked some of you; others will probably label me as a lost child. Although I do not question for a moment that Jesus Christ is my Savior and the Savior of all who believe in Him, I do very sincerely question whether He directly intervenes in our everyday lives. Or maybe it is, as I have come to the conclusion, that I have very little faith at all, if any. I don't know. All I know is that everyone that I have prayed for with a serious illness has succombed. So maybe the problem is me; maybe it is my lack of faith that prevents prayers from being answered. But if it were my lack of faith, if there was more that I should have done, fasted maybe, or prayed harder or more often, why didn't God show that to me? At any rate, please pray--there is that word again--for my neighbors and the hell they are experiencing right now. I only wish I could have helped. Thank you for listening. | ||
| Terry |
Patti, God heard your's and your neighbor's prayers. The fact that Ben died doesn't mean that you were slack in your prayers. God, sometimes says "no, I have other plans," plans that we just don't understand now. I have been praying for years for my sister, who has lupus, who keeps getting sicker as time goes on...in severe pain and suffering...constantly passing kidney stones, terrible arthritis pain, headaches, vomiting, etc.. Am I not praying and fasting (I cannot fast, due to my own health condition) enough? I don't think so. I believe that God just has other plans...My heart goes out to you and the parents and family of Ben. Why is God this way? I don't know. I do know that He loves us and has our best interest at hand. Heaven is waiting for us...Perhaps we need to pray more for peace regardless of cicumstances. I hate all the suffering I see and here about! I hope I haven't been to insensitve, Patti. Just trying to help in your pain. In Christ's love, Terry | ||
| Susan |
Patti, an atheist friend asked me some of the same questions you've raised regarding prayer. These are just some of the thoughts I shared with him. We pray as a means to fellowship with the Lord. It may be in the form of praise, petition, conversation etc. or just plain anger. I believe the desire of His heart is to BE with us. Through prayer this is possible. We can also learn more of who He is, and grow in our walk. Does prayer change God's plans? I'm not sure, I don't think so, because He is sovereign and works all things to His glory. Even the horrible things that we don't understand, and we may never understand this side of glory. I don't think that's all there is to it though. I think we're expected to pray. How can you have a relationship without spending time together? God wants us to share all things with Him, because He truly cares about every detail of our lives. I think through prayer we can experience His perfect intimacy. This will enable us to also develop intimacy in our other relationships as well. Even if we have trouble with people, God can provide us with unconditional acceptance and the intimacy that our hearts desire. When we enter into intercessory prayer we really are joining together with Jesus. He intercedes for us to the Father and the Holy Spirit will also pray through us to the Father. I think it's awesome that the Spirit will help us when we don't even know how to pray. The Spirit often has others praying for us, when we don't know what to do. I think this brings us closer to other believers as well as closer to God. Patti, it is very normal to raise these questions. I'm sure we all do from time to time. That's part of being human. I don't think it's good to wonder if we've prayed enough. God doesn't want us to suffer over how our attempts measure up. This might be a bit off the topic but I'll try to tie it in. There is one scene that really hits me in the movie "Schindler's List". At the end he is escaping by car, his people present him with a token for their appreciation. Schindler breaks down and starts to show the anguish of not being able to save more Jews. He starts to tally up how many more he could've saved for the price of certain material possesions. His friend then reassures him that he has saved so many and has done a noble thing as it is. For me this is such a powerful scene. Not only does he realize (which has unfolded throughout the movie) the value of all humans, but he also realizes that material things of this world are utterly worthless compared to the sanctity of human life. What impacted me was that God used his initial wrong intentions (just wanting to aquire cheap labor) to save some of the Jews. Yes, it was a small number in a horrific event. But there is a bigger picture. What might come from the many generations that survived due to "Schindler's List"? We never know how God will be glorified. But He always will. If not immediately then at some point in time. What about the horrific event of the cross? God allowed His son to suffer and die. So that His Glory would prevail. Well, as usual I've gone on to long. Hope at least something has helped. I really understand the anguish of trying to figure all this stuff out. When I've been faced with tragic things it's really hard to make sense of it. I'm trying to learn how to just rest in the assurance that He's in control and I'm in His hands. Love in Christ, Susan | ||
| Patti |
Thank you, Terry and Susan. You have been of comfort. I have to tell you, there is another factor also, and that is guilt. You see, my son totaled out his truck last week. He walked away from it with a few bruises. Why was I the lucky one? My neighbor is much sweeter and more caring than I? Why did God take care of my son, but not theirs? I have done nothing to deserve His favor. (Don't get me wrong; not that I am so infinitely grateful.) It just doesn't seem to make much sense. Unless everything is just totally random, and I have merely been lucky so far. Questions, question, questions. Like you, Susan, I must believe that God is in control and has a plan somewhere. I just cannot seem to make any sense of it. And I hope God will forgive my open doubting. Thank you both for your kind words. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Colleentinker |
Patti, I feel for you. I do not know an answer to your questions. The one thing I keep reminding myself is that God is the ultimate "value" in the universe. He is of more value than the saving of nations or the lives of people. I don't understand it. I just believe that it must be so. Knowing that the ultimate reality is that God will be glorified does not make pain less or explain my unanswerable questions. But at least I know that nothing can touch me that doesn't first come through the filter of his loveóeven tragedy. and that doesn't make pain less, either! I guess the one thing all this gives me is a sense of assuranceówhat appears random to me does not to God. My "job" is to trust him. And trust is also by his grace. I'm so sorry, Patti. I am grateful that your son is well. Love, Colleen | ||
| Patti |
Thank you, Colleen. I am very grateful also. It is extremely ironic. Both boys were the same age--22. Both lost control of their trucks on a curve and went off the road. Both hit a tree. But Ben hit a very large one. Yes, oh, YES, I am infinitely thankful (even if I am a little piqued at him for being so careless). I just spent the whole evening with the family, and I am again amazed at the human spirit. The mother came home and we were standing out in the yard talking. My daughter drove up from her weekend job, and came jaunting over, glad to see our neighbors home. I had not had a chance to tell her yet that Ben had died. And so I had to tell her quickly right there. My daughter started crying, and saying, "No, God no." The mother took her in her arms and said, "Don't cry, honey. It is OK. Ben is with Jesus now." I stood there amazed at how this grieving mother was comforting my daughter over the death of her own son! I know there are some among us who believe in soul-sleep. For me the jury is still out--I have to leave that in God's hands. But to hear this family constantly speak of how their son/nephew/brother was with Jesus, and how he was met by his grandparents, and how they were all waiting patiently for the rest of the family was very touching. There was no hype; just statements of their honest belief that this was true. I got to thinking about how SDAs would try most likely try to "correct" this understanding, and then I thought how devastating that would be to a family who is so comforted at the thought that Jesus has taken their Ben to Himself. I know if/when I am in that situation, I want to believe the same just as strongly as they do. Thank you all for listening to my rantings. Grace and peace and much love, Patti | ||
| Darrell |
Patti, I don't have any answers to add to what has been said, but I can understand the questions. I can't even say whether it is the sovereignty of God, or simply His letting people suffer the consequences of their own actions. But I do trust God to ultimately bring good out of what seems evil. (Romans 8:28) My prayers are with you and your neighbors. | ||
| Patti |
I truly thank you, Darrell, Colleen, Susan, Terry, and all for your best wishes and for letting me speak without condemnation. Even more, I thank you for not trying to pacify me with the usual pat answers. This is yet another issue that I will have to place in God's care, trusting that, although I cannot make any sense of it, that He is ultimately in control, and He is faithful to keep His promise to remove us from this world of sin and death to His glorious presence. My neighbors will be putting their son in the earth on Thursday. I hope you will remember them in your prayers, by name if possible: Doris and Scott. And please pray for me that I have the wisdom to know what to do to be of support and comfort to them after all the relatives and friends have left, and it will be just the two of them in a very empty house. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, Those are great questions that you ventured into! Some don't feel comfortable in bearing their souls that way. I'm glad you did!:-) PRAYER!!!!!!!!!!!! That is something that has really troubled me for years. Let me tell you how my prayer life has evolved. First, what is prayer?.....Communion with God. That said: My earliest memories of prayer were either something you did when you wanted something of earthly value or of eternal value. It was NEVER a friendship thing even though we sang, ìWhat A Friend We Have In Jesus.î I too, have wondered what the point of prayer was if God already made up his mind. Call it a bad attitude on my part if you like, but I have a hard time specifically praying to God in a ìPRAYERî mode. My prayer is more of a talking kind of thing in a relaxed and unstructured way?! Does this sound weird? My memories are so vivid at church, prayer meetings, camp meetings etc of everyone that had been a ìpracticing Christianî for all their lives just crying and begging God to save them and keep them ready. There were lots of tears, sniffing and Kleenex. From that, I was really soured on traditional prayer. Therefore I evolved from no prayer to a casual type of communion with God Now that brings up a thing that really troubles me at times and that is that I treat God like a casual ìbudî down the street. I now am hesitant to ìspecificallyî pray for something because I donít want God to think Iím only in the ìproper praying modeî when I want something. Now, Iíve sorta wandered off of the issue at hand and that is the circumstance with Ben and now the fact that your son walked away from a similar accident with only bruises. There are lots of times that I donít like Godís choice. In fact, ìIî sometimes think He really messed up! Had any of us been on earth when Jesus was here and we were friends of His, wouldnít we have prayed that He be delivered from the hands of the Jews and Romans? We would have prayed for a fair trial, a stay of execution and so on? We could have fasted and prayed and begged God not to let out friend, Jesus, die. What would have happened if that prayer had been answered? In stead of just a ìstay of executionî there would have been a ìstay of salvationî too! All I can figure is that ìall things work together for those that love God.î I just have no idea what God has in mind?!? Maybe Ben had a family member or friend that needed to see the workings of God and how everyone pulled together? Maybe the whole incident drew or will draw on the heartstrings of someone that was on the edge of a decision? And that person may now have a chance to share eternity with Ben (and God of course.) I just shudder though, when I think of the pain he went though, wow!!!!! God may have a plan for your son that needs him to be alive to fulfill? As to soul sleepÖÖÖ.I figure that when a person dies, whether it is instant ìbeam me upî or soul sleep, it makes little difference to the one that dies as either way it will be instantaneous!!!! I tend to think that the ìbeam me upî is more Biblical? On the other hand, I like the idea of soul sleep because I donít cotton to the idea of my ìpassed onî friends watching me shower!!!!!;-)) I certainly DONíT think you should have any guilt over this. This was in Godís plan for some reason? And wasnít it wonderful that Benís Mom could comfort your daughter? Did I ramble too much and sound sacrilegious?...........Maryann | ||
| Patti |
Maryann, No, you didn't ramble too much. In fact we share many thoughts. I have always had questions. For example, after a major catastrophe, such as a specific tornado we experienced in 1974, the tornado had skipped right over a Baptist church and touched down in neighborhoods on each side. The paster was saying how God had heard the prayers of the parishoners, the church had been spared, that God had been with them. My immediate question: What about the 8 others who died in the storm? Did God not hear their prayers? And who better to die in a storm, but those who have faith that Jesus Christ has saved them and that they will immediately join Him? When I was SDA, and this was very near the end of my SDA career, I attended a set of meetings in an elder's home called the Positive Way. It was sort of like the ABCs of prayer, saying that if we do xy and z, God will give us what we want. We were to "practice" asking God for specific things in a specific way, because, as the course maintained, God told us to "prove Him," and see if He would pour out His blessings. I lasted through 2 meetings and told my husband I would never go back. (A wry epilog to this story is that this same man (40+ years old and married) became emotionally entangled--at LEAST--with a 13-year-old girl in the church. They left town shortly thereafter, and I have not heard of him or his family since.) My point is that I do not understand exactly what this thing called prayer is; but I do know what it is not. I cannot believe that God is just sitting up there like a puppet just waiting for us to pull His strings. | ||
| Allenette |
The bushes are moving, one hears some noises, and yes, a mostly lurker jumps out, unable to restrain herself any longer, as the subject moves a bit farther from the tragic, to the practical, and she feels that perhaps her post may be considered a bit less harsh, altho most likely still heretical, and UNGODLY in its conclusion, but hopefully pragmatic. (Time will tell). A thinking adult human, unencumbered by religiosity, would LAUGH at the idea that they could "dial up" by thought, a supernatural being, that would upon demand, grant their every wish (Does "I Dream of Jeanie" ring a bell here??? Hey, even then, they had to have some physical object to rub gggg) Yet, most Theistic religeous systems claim that this works. The media makes points with the Conservative Christian Right when they haul out the old football team whose faculty or parents are whining about no prayer before the game, but most of the churches or private schools, who might have some vested interest, keep quiet about the unlikelyhood that ANY God gives a hoot about who wins!!! So...when we project this a bit further, into does God care which particular person dies or lives after a plane crash, some folks can see that it might be considered a little teensy tiny bit blasphemous (or even pompous) to say that "thank God I lived" and the person sitting next to me didnt" (however much it is in reality simply stating some sort of gratitude to WHOEVER...that the person in question is still sucking in air). You have reflected that in your posts about your dear son's recent misadventures. (I have a 17 yr old Evel Knievel so I DO understand!!!) I dunno Patti. We have similar basic backgrounds as SDA PK's but very different paths thereafter. :-) My take on the whole enchilada is that Moses was well-schooled but still wrong, and, if one goes off on that path, then, he can be treated more as an early philosopher with an agenda, rather than an accurate historian, and I still say, if we're wrong on the fall, we're wrong on it all. But...getting back to your original topic...I contend that, originally the intent of religion was to comfort early humans regarding the FEAR OF DEATH. Its not something we "modern" humans have reconciled very well, and I personally dont think we ever will. Especially when it hits close to home. Then the pleasant, party-line, fuzzy wuzzies just dont work. I HAVE NO ANSWERS, just plenty of questions like yourself, that dont go away. And people who quote scriptures are just like the folk who attend the funeral home visitations....trying to "help". They dont prove anything, they are just there to pay their respects and mourn. Meant as friendly as I can :-) | ||
| George |
Patti, I don't know if I can do you any good, but here goes anyway. Some time ago I wrote to Chyna some of my thoughts on prayer fasting etc. The basic idea was that we don't or shouldn't have to beg God for what we want. Ask Him once and let it go at that, He will do what He wants to do about it anyway. We may not see, hear, or like what He does but the point is He does what He wants or thinks best. As far as your anguish over not having enough faith to change the course of history, think of this, were you the only one that was praying for this young man, or any of the other ill people you mentioned? No? I guess then no one had enough faith, or fasted enough, or did something else right. Then, no ones prayers were answered right? Could it be that we are looking at prayer wrong? Think about this, if what we are doing doesn't work, maybe we are not doing the right thing. One of the best things I ever heard for people that have trouble with their lives is---If what you are doing now don't work, do something different. In other words, if you just simply can't get the square peg in the round hole, look for a square hole to put it in. It just might work. Soooo, how do we think we can make God change His mind? Do we as humans reeeally thing we can get God to do what we want Him to do? Really? When He has it all figured out from the beginning? When you think if it, how absurd can we get? If a person believes in predestination (which I don't), do we really think we can get God to change the destiny of a person or the world in general just because we don't like the way He did it the first time? No? Well, perhaps this is not what prayer is for. Remember the square peg? If it don't work, and I think we can see that it don't, or hasn't for the most part, it is time to look for another explination. Lets suppose that prayer (talking to God) is to have the same effect on us that talking to a close friend or spouse has when we are troubled. If we are close to someone and talk out our troubles we feel better when we are done and sometimes we even can understand why things happened. If our relationship with God is like that, we could tell Him how bad we hurt and how we just can't understand why things happened and when we have finished I am sure He will see to it hat we have some kind of peace. And, if we KNOW that He has done what HE wants, why then we can put it all away knowing that things are going according to the plan, His plan. Remember if it don't work, it has to be us that is wrong, not Him. I am sure there are more ideas for other uses of prayer. Lets see if we can list some of them. The best to you and your neighbor----George | ||
| George |
That was abstract reasons for prayer---ones that are not usualy thought of. | ||
| Colleentinker |
I don't believe that when people die and their spirits go to God that they are able to watch us here on earth. They are with Jesus, and I don't believe that they have any access to earth at all, not even "eavesdropping" or "watching". The Bible never suggests that spirits that go to be with God interact with us on earth or have any idea of what we're doing. What happens to our spirits when they go to heaven is spiritual, not physical. Our bodies will not be redeemed until Jesus comes again. The spiritual is as real as the physical, but we don't know exactly what that looks like yet. We do know that I Cor. 2 says that spiritual things are spiritually discerned, and spiritual things are foolishness to intellectual wisdom. The glory of the resurrection as described in I Cor. 15 is that our whole selves are redeemed and resurrected. Our spirits are resurrected when we accept Jesusóand they never die; they are never parted from him. Our bodies are also redeemed and resurrected, but that part comes laterójust as physical death came after spiritual death when Adam and Eve sinned. Truth and reality are much bigger than we can see. Spiritual reality is as true as physicalóbut we know it with our spirits instead of with our minds. Yes, our minds are involvedóthe Spirit awakens our minds and integrates them with our spiritsóbut none of this talk of eternal life and resurrection and being with the Lord makes sense without our spirits being awakened and connected with God. He is real, and relationships with him are real! And he has promised that not even death can separate us from him. Praising God for his love, Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Y'all, It's been said that I tend to bring up the hard questions and the scary ones that NO-ONE wants to touch!!! So here goes a whooooooper. Even with all this business about how good God is and I even started a thread about "How Do We Picture Jesus", I sometimes wonder????? Do any of you admit to thinking of God as one who sits up somewhere in space, choosing who will die and who will not but still wants us to beg favors of him to satisfy His ego? I know that is an awful concept to think of God with an ego!!!! Sooooooooooooooo, DON'T scold me!!! I just had to air that one out!;-(( Yikes! The other thing that has always bothered me was what was already brought up and that is, how can we be so happy and pleased when we are spared and the other guy isn't? Really ponder that one. Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Colleen, I see that my comment about the "shower" extracted a very good post on the body and spirit, etc from you!;-)) Thank you!;-) That was actually a very good post:):) Sometimes I think that is just doesn't pay for me to "think!" Oh well, that at least gets a ball rolling and as long as it doesn't roll over me, I'll keep bringing up the "odd" stuff. Thanks for being my sis;-)))))) Maryann |
