| Author |
Message |
Max
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2000 - 2:02 pm: |     |
Hang in there Lorin,
Both Maryann and Patti are precious children
of God born anew by the Holy Spirit. And both
are still learning, just as you and I still are.
Max of the Cross |
Lorinc
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2000 - 2:19 pm: | |
Hi Max,
I am in total agreement with your last post, but I'm not sure what I said that prompted it! :-)
I sure hope I didn't somehow imply that Maryann and Patti *aren't* precious children of God -- anyone could see His Spirit coming through in both of their writings! (And yours!)
Still bewildered, but still smiling (really!)
Lorin |
Max
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2000 - 3:15 pm: | |
Lorin,
Certainly not that you implied anything. I'm only
referring to your question, ^^Is this the part
where the "new guy" steps into the middle of
an ongoing battle and proceeds to get zinged
from both sides?^^
I'm only trying to affirm the idea that
Christ-followers can have disagreements.
Witness Paul grabbing Peter's lapels and
getting into his face!
Only blessings to you,
Max of the Cross |
Maryann
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2000 - 9:50 pm: | |
Hi Lorin,
You sure do have a good grasp on things;-)
Some of us are in the same Bible trying to read together, yet on different pages.
Picture this, I live in a house on top of a mountain and you are visiting me. We are in the den watching a movie and need to stretch our legs. I go to my favorite spot on the back patio overlooking a rugged canyon and dark angry storm clouds are sinking towards the canyon. I just love a storm and all the sensations that go with it as long as I stay inside.
I go back in the den and wait for you.
You went out on the front patio overlooking a long gentle valley with a large creek tumbling to the valley floor. You really like the view with various flowers and huge pines in the distance. Today you could stay out there for ever as the sky is clear while the sun is sinking in the sky promising a beautiful sunset.
Finally you come in the den.
You say, "let's forget the movie and go watch the sunset. It is so beautiful out there, the movie can wait."
I look at you and say, "are you crazy?????! It's really dark and angry looking out there and I don't know what you are looking but I'm staying in the house, 'cause I'm NOT getting wet!"
You say, "me crazy!!! You're the crazy one! The most beautiful sunset is fixing to happen and you don't want to see it?!"
We can fight all evening about who is right OR gently take each other by the hand and show each other that we are in the same house looking at two different views of the same thing.
This is what I see happening here.
Some are looking at the correct view of us being totally nasty, wretched sinners being perfect in God's sight THROUGH His Son.
Some are looking at the correct view of an individual that, being a totally nasty, wretched sinner, begins to grow in grace. This individual can NEVER do anything to gain an iota of salvation with his actions. BUT, this indivudual begins to bear, "fruits of the Spirit," NOT to be saved but BECAUSE he is saved. These "fruits" are to be becons to the world that Christ "CAN CHANGE LIVES!"
Upward and onward.......Maryann |
Lorinc
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 7:18 am: | |
Ah! Got it!
Thanks for the review and clarification, everyone, I'm "up to speed" now. :-)
- Lorin |
Pat
| | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 12:03 pm: | |
Sorry that I don't seem to have the time you guys do - I only get here once in a while. So my answer to Max is 'way down here. First, I certainly have nothing against the cross, whomever it was that took me to task on that (Marianne, maybe?) The title, "Max of the cross" sounded a bit like the names we read in old Church history or fiction.
Indeed, my thought was that much of this FORMER ADVENTIST FORUM - sounds more like the old way of life INSIDE the SDA church. All these "Yes, but's" remind me of my years on SDAnet. "Yes, we believe in salvation by faith, BUT we have to do these works." Sorry if that upsets you, but several of you seem to have come full circle. Maybe you left Adventism for reasons different from my own.
I have many faults, but one of them was not fooling myself into thinking I could become "like Jesus" - perfect - in this life. I probably worked my fingers to the bone every Friday for more years than many of you are old, trying to do everything right; that and many more "works." But I could never say in honesty that I was improving, growing more perfect, more like Jesus. How wonderful to discover that salvation was by grace alone, through faith alone in Jesus' works alone!
I left the church because of the fraudulent prophetess, the fraudulent doctrines, and the fraudulent organization which perpetuates the frauds. But God knew where I was, and in His mercy led me into a job where I was surrounded by "grace"! So, I am more "cross-oriented" than you can imagine! Jesus Christ is the crux of my faith, belief, life, religion, and future security!
I submit that even though one may *think* he is saved by grace alone but that he must "change his behaviour" that he has come full circle: He is now dwelling on his own works, looking at himself, rather than "looking unto Jesus, the AUTHOR and the PERFECTOR of our faith." To look anywhere (especially in the mirror) other than at Jesus is to be centering on our own accomplishements - again. We have returned to that "other Gospel", for which Paul condemns the Galatians; the works-oriented church from which we were rescued!
Any behaviorial changes which happen to you are not going to be to your knowledge. Others may recognize a change, but if you are seeing marvelous changes in your own life, you *might* be like those in MW 25. Those who were living in the will of God had no idea they were fulfilling His plan for themselves, but those who were lost thought they were top-of-the-line good people - alas, they were dead wrong!
BTW, Max. we've crossed paths before, but if you would like to refresh your memory about me, you may read my story on Janet Brown's web site.. :-)
Pat |
Cindy
| | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 5:42 pm: | |
Pat,
I agree with you...
Just when I think I'm doing pretty good, really being a "spiritual" person, God brings situations in my life that show me the true inner workings of my heart!
Feelings of anger and pride that I thought I had conquered long ago are brought to the surface; and I am amazed at how sinful I really am!
And then, of course, only God can take those feelings away if I let Him take them. But again, it's amazing how sometimes I just want to hold onto them and wallow in these destructive feelings and emotions.
Praise God for our ONLY assurance--the free gift of JESUS' perfect life and death for us! This once-for-all act, and fact! of history gives me my motivation, strength, and joy!
Grace always,
Cindy |
Maryann
| | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 10:29 pm: | |
Hi Pat,
It is still beyond my little "pin head" how there can be some that STILL can NOT hear what I have said. (What ever the case, I'm still glad you to see you post;-)
You said:
"All these "Yes, but's" remind me of my years on SDAnet. "Yes, we believe in salvation by faith, BUT we have to do these works." Sorry if that upsets you, but several of you seem to have come full circle."
I NEVER said:
"Yes, we believe in salvation by faith, BUT we have to do these works."
We DO "these works" BECAUSE, (GOT THAT?) BECAUSE we are saved!! What is so hard about hearing that and accepting that, that is what I said? Again, why are there soooo many fruit bearing parables and stories in the Bible it the believer isn't to bear fruit? Could you answer that?
You said:
"I probably worked my fingers to the bone every Friday for more years than many of you are old, trying to do everything right; that and many more "works."
Boy oh boy, can I ever appreciate that. My Mom has nubbins instead of fingers over the Friday panic. It always amazed me how much HELL Fridays were!
Let me ask you this? Did you work your fingers to the bone TO BE SAVED/TO STAY SAVED or BECAUSE YOU WERE SAVED? That to me, is the root problem and anyone that has "fruits of the Spirit" HAS NOT GONE FULL CIRCLE when they (the fruits)come, they come BECAUSE you are saved! There aint no circle to it! It's all a straight line to/from Jesus!
You said:
"But I could never say in honesty that I was improving, growing more perfect, more like Jesus."
Of course you are not gaining in perfection in your works as far as GOD is concerned. YOUR/MY works really stink to God. I stand solidly on that FACT!
Jesus our Savior, IS our substitute, our ALL.
If Jesus was our PATERN, He would NOT be our Savior, ALL or substitute! Therefore I do not/can not grow in perfection that God recognizes. Re-read that if you still think I said that I believe that I HAVE to produce "fruits of the Spirit" to be or maintain my salvation!!
You said:
"Any behaviorial changes which happen to you are not going to be to your knowledge. Others may recognize a change, but if you are seeing marvelous changes in your own life, you *might* be like those in MW 25. Those who were living in the will of God had no idea they were fulfilling His plan for themselves, but those who were lost thought they were top-of-the-line good people - alas, they were dead wrong!"
When you have a new baby, there are certain things that, that baby does. For instance, they start to raise their heads, later they crawl, still later they walk and run and all to soon they talk back;-). Now, if this baby doesn't follow these appoximate steps in a timely manner, on could only assume two things:
THE BABY IS DEAD!
THE BABY IS RETARDED!
As to the comment; "Any behaviorial changes which happen to you are not going to be to your knowledge."
Do you suppose that the harlot that was told to go and sin no more noticed that she no longer split the sheets with every Judas, Jacob and James?
Do you suppose that Paul didn't notice that he no longer killed Christians?
Do you suppose that Matthew didn't notice that he no longer extorted excess taxes?
Did the above three examples quit their evil actions TO BE SAVED? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! They quit their evil actions BECAUSE the were saved.
CAN ANYBODY SEE THE DIFFERENCE?
CAN ANYBODY SEE THE FREEDOM WE HAVE IN CHRIST?
I said it yesterday and will say it again. I'm very sorry that those of you that have had only a dramatic theology shift CAN'T understand or put your feet in the shoes of us that have had dramatic shifts in our actions BECAUSE, (GOT THAT), BECAUSE WE BELIEVED AND ARE SAVED!
There are issues that I have had to face that were rather difficult. With the strength provided to me by the Helper/Holy Spirit, those issues are not the problem they were some time ago. When an issue came up, the Holy Spirit drug me through it. As time went on, He simply held my hand and we walked on pass the issue and it seldom even comes up anymore.
I'm very sorry that a testimony like that is offensive to some!!! I really am!!!!
You said:
"Those who were living in the will of God had no idea they were fulfilling His plan for themselves,...."
That whole concept and mindset is just beyond me! I would truly love to understand what it is that gives you the idea that God "WORKS IN THE DARK?" Why are you so afraid of letting God change your life and using that as a witness or springboard to the love and grace of God!?
This is truly ment in a kind way!
NOT ASHAMED OF THE CHANGES GOD HAS MADE IN MY LIFE.............MARYANN |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 11:33 pm: | |
Wow, that was clear, Maryann!
I really understand Patti's, Pat's, Cindy's, and others' concern about our sounding as if we are saved by grace but then expected to gradually attain perfection. I agree completely; we are not expected to eradicate sin from our lives! Jesus' righteousness is enough; it's all that saves us, and it's all we need.
We are saved in our sins, and God doesn't turn to us then and say in effect, "Go act perfect now."
But I have to say that when we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, I believe that we do experience internal changes. These changes are not part of our being saved. I also believe that many of us do not experience these changes as rapidly as others. God does not wave a magic wand and heal us of all our painful histories and emotional damage.
My experience has been that ever so gently and even subtley God brings understandings and confrontations to my mind. Some of these I rationalize for a long time. But when God wants me to address an issue in my life, he doesn't leave me alone about it. It keeps confronting me, or I keep confronting it.
I have had issues I needed to address that I would pray about for months, but when nothing changed, I would finally face the fact that I had to admit to God that I was choosing to retain a loophole in my mind that allowed me to continue my negative reactions. I had to come to the point where I was willing to tell God, "I'm going to give you this persistent habit. I know you're trying to deal with me about it. I want to be willing to give it up. I'm putting it in your hands."
That's not exactly a fun thing to do. I have to tell God I'm willing for him to take away something that I feel is actually my right to continue.
But the fact is that when I began to internalize the fact that God is sovereign, I began to see that nothing in my life had come to me without his knowledge and permission. I've also begun to see that even my bad habits which might have grown out of pain in my past are areas which God is allowing me to wrestle with so he can glorify himself in my life.
The Holy Spirit really does work changes in us. These changes do not all come without our permission or struggle. But they happen. When God claims us, he also changes us. He hits us between the eyes with our sins and weaknesses, and gradually, one at a time, he confronts us and invites us to give those things to him. The fact is that we often don't want to give those things to him because in some way we get something fron them; power, revenge, numbing, euphoria, familiarity, etc.
I have to say that I know God makes changes in us that we can see ourselves. None of these changes has ANYTHING to do with our working to change. None of them has ANYTHING to do with our receiving or keeping salvation. But they do have everything to do with our being sealed by the Holy Spirit.
God came to set us free! Praise Him! And he is patient in teaching us to trust him. What he gives us is startlingly different from what we imagine he will give us.
Praise God for saving us and for setting us free from ourselves! The new us he gives us is alive with his living Presence. How can we ever be the same again?!
Praise God!
Colleen |
Max
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2000 - 12:53 am: | |
To Pat and all,
I try never to go beyond Scripture. For that
reason you'll never catch me saying, "Yes,
but...."
And here is Scripture -- from Romans 8, which
balances out Romans 7 or answers the
question (do I stop sinning?) Paul asks there:
^^If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from
the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ
from the dead will also give life to your mortal
bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
^^Threfore, brothers, we have an OBLIGATION
-- but it is not to the sinful nature, to living
according to it. For if you live according to the
sinful nature, you will die; but if by the spirit you
put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will
live, because those who are led by the Spirit of
God are sons of God.^^ |
Joni
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2000 - 4:06 am: | |
What does it mean to walk by the Spirit? What does it mean to walk by faith and not works?
What does John 8:11 mean? "And she said "No one Lord" And Jesus said "neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more."
Isn't this sin meant as a "habit of life?" Jesus changes our habits. He gives us the power to follow Him and to walk by faith and to walk by His Spirit. Yes, We do stumble, but we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. If we continue in our flesh what is the problem. Do we not believe that His word is true? Do we not believe that He saves us from our sins? Do we not believe that He gives us His mind.
Rom. 1:28 "And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,..."
Romans 8:5 "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,"
Rom. 8:27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."
Rom 12:2 "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will if God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect"
1Cor. 1:10 "Now I exhort you, brethren, buy the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgement"
1Cor. 2:16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord, that He will instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ"
1Cor. 15:34 "Become sober minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame."
2Cor 13:11 Finally, brethren, rejoice, be made complete, be comforted, be like minded, live in peace; and the God of peace will be with you."
Phil. 2:3 "Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
The big change in myself after I understood what it means to be born again, (John 3) is that I want to know God and Jesus Christ. That I believe His word. He came to set me free and to forgive me. That I desire to walk in the Spirit and not the flesh. That I desire to live according to the word that He teaches me. That I can say "forgive me" more. That when flesh rears his ugly head in me, The Spirit pricks my mind and causes me to make things right, with whomever I need to. Sometimes it takes a while for God to get through to my stubborn soul, But so far in each end He has won out. Does this mean I do not sin? No!!! It means that when I do sin Jesus Christ takes care of it.
After leaving the SDA church, I do not equate walking by His law, Spirit, Faith, to be the written code that was canceled out. It is all the "gut" things for me.
It is EPh. 5:14 "For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement You shall love your neighbor as yourself".
It is Eph. 16-25 "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that yu may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are; immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions,factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice (present tense, continous action, habit of life) such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another."
We either believe His Word or we don't. Am I legalist? Am I saying that I am perfect and do not sin by believing what God's word says. No I know it is not myself that does this, it is God who gives me the desire to Know Him. It is God who gives me faith. It is God who causes me to walk after Him. It is God who pricks my mind when I do sin. It is God who causes me to say "be merciful to me a sinner"
I guess this should have been in the other thread. |
Max
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2000 - 4:02 pm: | |
Hi Joni,
What a beautiful post!
I have only one small thing to add: According
to Hebrews 10 it is just as right to say "I am
perfect in Christ" as it is to say "I am saved in
Christ."
You posted, ^^Am I saying that I am perfect
and do not sin by believing what God's word
says. No, I know it is not myself that does this,
it is God who gives me the desire to Know
Him. It is God who gives me faith. It is God
who causes me to walk after Him. It is God
who pricks my mind when I do sin. It is God
who causes me to say "be merciful to me a
sinner."^^
And what you say is certainly scriptural. But I'm
saying the true Christ follower can ALSO say,
"I am perfect," as long as by that statement he
means the same thing as the statements, "I
am saved," and "I am righteous."
For the true Christian all three statements are
100% OF Christ alone and 0% of OF self!
Agreed?
Max of the Cross |
|
