| Author | Message | ||
| Lydell |
Patti, a comment you made in one of your posts got me started on searching the scriptures. Since we are told that it is profitable for teaching, I think that is where you will find your answer for just how involved the Lord is in our lives after our initial salvation experience. We could begin by looking at the example of the kind of things Christ talked about. I see there that he noted that the Lord feeds and clothes us (Matt. 6:16-34). That He gives good gifts if we ask for them(Matt. 7:7-12) That the gifts are given to enable us to do the things that He did (John 14:11-14). That He sends workers into the harvest (Matt. 9:35-38) That he provides money to pay tax (Mattl. 17:26-27. That He sends the teacher to guide us into all truth (John 16:5-16). That He gives peace not to be found in the world (John 14: 27). That He protects us from satan (John 17:15). Obviously from the numerous examples of Christ life, He also heals. In looking further in the NT I see some other things that we are told that He does: He makes all grace abound to us so that in all things at all times we have what we need (II Cor. 9:8). He teaches us spiritual truths (I Cor. 2:13). He gives us life and peace thru the indwelling Spirit. (Rom. 8:5-11). He gives gifts for ministry (I cor. 12:7-11). And that got me thinking about the things we know He does because of the examples in the OT. He fed his people, gave them water from a rock, went before them to lead them, told them where to live, opened a path through a river for them, told them what to say, directed them to the place to meet people, matched them up with spouses for them, blessed them with children, brought victory in the battles they fought, fought their battles for them, visited them through angels, spoke through dreams and visions and direct revelation, guided a certain widow woman to do a most strange thing and thereby provided finances for she and her children, communicated with common people. And through all that is recorded in the Word, we are given a revelation of who He is by What He names himself to be. His names for Himself include: the one who sees, the all-sufficient one, the Lord who provides, the Lord who heals, the Lord my banner, the Lord is Peace, the Lord of Hosts. And Christ himself said of Himself that he was our Shepherd. A shepherd doesn't lead his sheep into the pasture and walk away and leave them, or only come back to check on them occassionally through their lives. No, he stays with the silly sheep on a daily basis. He said He would not leave us as orphans. He said He is Immanuel---God with us. We can't arrive at faith through intellect. We can look at the historical record that Christ actually lived. We can look at the historical record of what the early church fathers had to say about doctrines. But then the time comes to move beyond the doctrine and let the stuff be activated in our lives. Faith involves more than intellectual acknowledgment that salvation comes through Christ's sacrifice for us. Faith is what causes lives to be transformed. The transformed lives, the lives of joy, peace, patience, kindness, self-control, and all the rest comes as a result of taking Him at His word for all the rest of Who He says He is and what He says He is willing to do in the lives of His children. It means taking the risk of allowing Him to manifest His power in your life now in even the mundane areas of your life. Intellectual assent to the truth of salvation can only take you so far. To experience the deeper things of God involves stepping out of the boat. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Allenette, Lydell said: "I think that is where you will find your answer for just how involved the Lord is in our lives after our initial salvation experience." Just in case you might think that to keep God from being involved in your life, you decide not to have an "initial salvation experience," WRONG!!!;-)) HE IS INVOLVED in your life and every life on the face of the earth, even before you/they are saved! I personally think that you are being used by God right now:):):) ;-))..........Maryann | ||
| Allenette |
OK OK once and for all here is my position. I am agnostic. I have been one all my "thinking" life. I am not a "back-slider" I am a "non-believer", who still has some social interest in interacting with "believers",since I think that "shunning" is not nice, no matter what side is doing it :-) I do not read a book about Superman, Santa Claus, or even the Great Pumpkin (good grief ;-) and then start worshipping him/her/ or it, no matter HOW MANY other people do, or how many other books are written about him/her, or it. I might be a fan of Superman because the story and packaging are interesting but I worship NO ONE, ok? When you all can finally agree on what is and isnt, even, LITERAL in your holy book, let me know gggg With permission, I am borrowing a post from another forum somewhat referring to my friend MaryAnn's post: >>>"My definition of a Christian would go something like this... A Christian is someone that believes in the person, acts, and words of Jesus as recorded in the bible. (As far as I'm aware, there isn't any other source of information regarding Jesus) Consequently, I would have to believe the bible is true. Otherwise I have no reason to believe in Jesus in the first place. I would also have to believe that, unless there was a compelling reason to think differently, the bible would have to be taken at face value. Otherwise, the acts of Jesus could be just a story. Not literal, and consequently, not true. Again, I would be left with nothing to believe in. And IF I'm going to believe that Jesus was the son of God, and was sinless as he claimed, and knew what the truth is as he claimed, then I would have to believe whatever he believed and accept that whatever he said was the truth. Based on that, I would have to accept the OT as true since Jesus believed it was true. I can allow that there may be some errors in our current versions due to a lack of understanding on the part of translators and/or copiers over the ages, but in general I would have to accept it for what it says. The only alternatives here are to assume that 1. Jesus didn't know the truth and IGNORANTLY accepted the errors in the OT. or 2. He knew it was wrong but went ahead and supported it as the truth anyway. With option 1, I would have to conclude that Jesus didn't know what he was talking about. And if he was ignorant of the truth regarding the stories in the OT, how could I possibly believe he knew the truth about anything else? Hardly acceptable from someone that claims he is God. With option 2, I would have to conclude Jesus was a liar. And if he was a liar, then I can't believe anything he said. Again, totally unacceptable for someone that claims he is the God of truth, and in fact, truth itself. So, IF I'm going to call myself a Christian, I have to believe that what the bible says is the truth. And allegories, parables, symbolisms, when they are used, would still have to represent the truth. Bottom line is, you have to believe the bible for what it says, OR you have to explain HOW it can be wrong and still be true, OR you have no real basis for calling yourself a Christian. To me, logic is a test of truth/reasonableness. It works much in the same way as mathematics. I don't care how much someone may believe or wish that 2+2=5, it simply isn't true. It doesn't add up. Can you see any errors in my reasoning of what it would take to call yourself a Christian? Anyone?"<<< Put better than I could have of course ;-) | ||
| Colleentinker |
I may have missed something along the way, but, Allenette, which part of the OT do you consider to be untrue? Are you referring to the first three chapters of Genesis, or something else or something more? I don't believe the Bible gives all the details by any means. It's not intended to be a science or a history book. It's a book of stories about how God has worked with the human race, particularly the nation of Israel, to bring salvation to the world/universe. The picturesque language of Genesis does not negate varying conclusions about The Beginning. The thing that it does proclaim is that God is the Creator. That is the important information that lays the groundwork for the rest of the story. Salvation would not make sense if we were not God's to begin with. As Lydell says, belief is by faithóI would add by experienceónot by rational facts. There are facts, but the facts to not feed faith. They only inform it. Faith is the reaction of a person meeting the person of Christ. That is a very real experience, not just a fantasy. Praising God for His reality and love, Colleen | ||
| Darrell |
Allenette, the Bible is not the only source of references to Jesus. Even the Talmud does not deny the miracles of Jesus, it just attributes them to sorcery. Besides the Talmud, Josephus mentions Jesus, and several writings of the early Christian fathers refer to communications from Pilate to Rome about Jesus, although these documents have never been found. For more information check out this link. | ||
| Patti |
I know that some people are going to think I am being either 1) arrogant, or 2) heretical (or both), but I do not believe that Christianity can be "proven" to anyone with historical evidence. No more than the Gospel can be argued into belief. Christianity is based upon faith, and the Bible itself describes faith as being without tangible evidence. Don't get me wrong. I believe that historical and other tangible evidence can be used to strengthen and uplift believers, but one cannot win someone to Christ, to Christianity by empirical reasoning nor with historical evidence. The belief systems of people are very strong. (Have you ever heard of the Flat Earth Society?) And to alter their beliefs requires a drastic intervention. In the case of Christianity, it requires the intervening revelation of Jesus Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit. So how much of what we write on here is valid to Christian witness? Honestly, most of what we are doing here is "preaching to the choir." Not that it does not have its place and its value. It certainly does. But let us not deceive ourselves into thinking that we can convince anyone of anything. We can tell of the great saving act of Jesus Christ, but the Holy Spirit is the only One who can cause people to "see" the Gospel. Because, Jesus Christ is, after all, the all-important, all-consuming Truth. And we cannot argue Him into existence in anyone's mind. Nor can we convince anyone that He has saved them. Whether or not we like it, we must wait on the moving of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps that gives a new perspective to the text, "Oh, rest in the Lord. Wait patiently on Him; and He will give you your heart's desire." | ||
| Allenette |
Colleen: For starters I have my own doubts about Moses...I think he was a fraud ;-) But that's a WHOLE NOTHER DISCUSSION and I am up to my eyeballs in business-related stuff to do that right now boo hooo. :-) Did you notice my link a few weeks ago, regarding the problems that Ben-Gurion University was having, with the lack of ANY archeological evidence for the "wandering in the wilderness"???That would be a nice jumping off point but I didnt see any replies so guess it didnt pique any interest. boo hoo times two ggg BTW, I only _mostly_ agree with the part I stated that I was borrowing "with permission from another forum." | ||
| Allenette |
Here's another interesting, fairly respectable scientific website (National Geographic)some might find interesting re: the above few posts :-) http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ngnews/blacksea.html I would call this another "tip of the iceberg" but that would be out of context for sure ggg | ||
| Lydell |
Colleen, I agree with your observation that belief is by faith AND experience. That was the crux of my point. The initial salvation experience is only the first step in what is a Christian life. It's the foundation. But our testimony to others is not just that Christ saves through His sacrifice. Our personal testimony involves what this means to our life. How have we been impacted by that initial experience? What is our experience today of having relationship with Christ? What is He doing NOW in our lives? Christ didn't just come to save us for a future life. He gave us abundant life NOW. He didn't just give us a ticket to heaven then move off to leave us to muddle through on our own. Instead He promised to indwell us, teach, direct, give wisdom, impart gifts, etc. If His intent was only to give us a punched ticket, then there would have been no need for all the instruction in doctrine and life that is recorded in the scriptures for us. I think the teaching of the scriptures is that His intent has always been for His people to move beyond head knowledge into heart knowledge that comes from active daily relationship with Him. I think that relationship comes from our being aware daily that He is actively involved in every area of our lives. | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Patti: What a great statement: In the case of Christianity, it requires the intervening revelation of Jesus Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit.... This is another GEM worth a semester in Bible School. BTW, I do not think you used the word intervening by chance or accident. That makes your point perfectly stated, and allow me, dripping wet in the Annointing of God's inspirational power ! You know that both of us could quote a number of scriptures to support your statement! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Allenette |
Well I give up and most on here will be grateful ;-) I have heard GraceAmbasador etc et al's rhetoric for 40+, years and I need a vacation from spiritual rhetoric.....hoping to be gone for a long long time....c r u i s i n g............ | ||
| Max |
Vaya con Dios, Allenette. You'll be missed! | ||
| Maryann |
I have "FAITH" in Allenette.... She'll be baaaaaaaack:):):) |
