| Author |
Message |
Ken
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 2:42 pm: |     |
Hi Mr. Thompson:
And where do you presume Jesus quoted his "It is
written" from. The old and New Testament cannot no
must not ever be taken over the other. They work
together very fine, Thank You! It appears you still do
not have these shadowey laws seperated from the Ten
Commandments correctly you still need to do some
more praying & studying.
Ken |
Billthompson
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 2:57 pm: | |
Ken,
Care to answer my 3 question? How would you lead a person to Christ (not a denomination BUT CHRIST) if you can not answer these three questions? Do I need to repeat them again?
Back to basics, Ken. How do you believe a person is saved? Many a lost Pharisee could quote the Old Testament better than you or I.
Again, Ken, I have been where you are now. I know your arguments, I once made them myself. Do they give you assurance of your own salvation? Do you have the peace that surpases understanding?
If you want me to repeat the 3 questions let me know. |
Billthompson
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 3:22 pm: | |
Ken, I am in no way advocating ignoring the Old Testament. Quite the opposite. I am saying, let's shine the light we have from the New Testament (a more recent revelation of God, the Testament where God becomes flesh and dwells among us, thus revealing more of Himself to us), shine this light on the Old Testament and see it for what it is. It is beautiful how it all fits together, how the prophecies and shadows of the Old are fulfilled in the New. I don't think you can adequately appreciate either one without the other, seeing how well one leads up to the other and how the new fulfills the old.
I love to study both.
Do the writings of Paul (most of the New Testament) trouble you and make you want to crawl back into the shadows of the Old Testament?
If you could but once see how impossible it is for you or anyone else to live a perfect, sinless life, you would welcome the Good News. |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 3:55 pm: | |
Ken, still more KJV (with a single, appropriate
change) for you:
Galatians 3
1 O foolish Ken, who hath bewitched you, that
ye should not obey the truth, before whose
eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set
forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye
the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the
hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit,
are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain?
Max of the Cross |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 3:59 pm: | |
Billthompson,
I think you are defending the gospel of Christ
against Ken's attacks just fine -- in humility.
You have my complete backing. God continue
to bless your efforts.
Max of the Cross |
Maryann
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 4:32 pm: | |
Hi Ken,
You said:
"And where do you presume Jesus quoted his
"It is written" from. The old and New Testament cannot no must not ever be taken over the other. They work together very fine, Thank You! It appears you still do not have these shadowey laws seperated from the Ten Commandments correctly you still need to do some more praying & studying."
You are right that "they work together very fine."
A truer statement has not been stated by you.
On the other hand, taking the context of what the whole above paragraph is saying, I believe your intent is skewed.
You said:
"And where do you presume Jesus quoted his
"It is written" from."
My answer is:
Of course it is the Old Testament!
My QUESTIONS to you are:
Did Jesus make that statement (several times) before or after the cross? In other words, was that, "it is written," quoted while the world was under the Old Covenant?
If your answers are yes, the premiss of your above paragraph is VOID!! Just like the Old Covenant.
What ever the case Ken, keep on pluggin', I admire you. I'd be more admirin' though if you'd just answer more of the questions put to you, particularly the 3 that Bill has infinity-repetedly asked you!;-))
Maryann |
Maryann
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 4:42 pm: | |
Hi Bill,
I'm sorry I mistook your intention. Still, I figure that "Chief Defender of the SDA Faith on FAFF" is a most fitting title as he has made a sizable contribution to the total post's on this site with his attempts.
Maryann |
Ken
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 7:07 pm: | |
Hi Max:
Max: Did Jesus make that statement (several times)
before or after the cross? In other words, was that, "it
is written," quoted while the world was under the Old
Covenant?
...and I ask exactly how long after Jesus rose was he
here to quote from the scriptures?
and Max I really appreciate you calling me
foolish...thanks!
Cheers
Ken |
Maryann
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 7:36 pm: | |
Hi Ken,
I believe I asked you the question about whether the "it is written" was before or after the cross, not Max.
As far as getting called "foolish." I would most certainly figure that could apply to anyone that falls in the same trap as the Galations fell into. And that was having the the mistaken idea that they somehow went back to the same Old System that was exposed when the curtain was rent from top to bottom when the Old Covenant was made obsolete at the death of Jesus.
Don't feel bad, there are many people before you and will be many more to come that the:
Galatians 3 (KJV)
"1..O foolish Galations (or deniers of the all sufficient and completed work of Christ), who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2..This only would I learn of you, Received ye
the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the
hearing of faith?
3..Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit,
are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4..Have ye suffered so many things in vain?"
apply to.
Your friend..........Maryann |
Ken
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 8:44 pm: | |
Hi All:
So are you saying all humanity that died before the time
of Christ dying for us won't be saved? After all they could
not have possibly claimed him & him crucified. Too bad for
them I guess.
Ken |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 8:47 pm: | |
Hi Ken,
It was Paul who called you foolish. What I was
calling you was a Galatian. And that because
you have demonstrated all of their arguments
in your posts.
Now, was I wrong to call you a Galatian?
Max of the Cross |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 9:00 pm: | |
Hi Ken,
You wrote, ^^ So are you saying all humanity
that died before the time of Christ dying for us
won't be saved? After all they could not have
possibly claimed him & him crucified. Too bad
for them I guess. ^^
Ken, you guessed wrong.
The following passage from Hebrews (KJV)
answers your question. Those who died
before Christ's sacrifice, "having obtained a
good report through faith, received not the
promise: God having provided some better
thing for us, that they without us should not be
made perfect." ^^
Hebrews 11
32
And what shall I more say? for the time would
fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of
Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and
Samuel, and of the prophets:
33
Who through faith subdued kingdoms,
wrought righteousness, obtained promises,
stopped the mouths of lions.
34
Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the
edge of the sword, out of weakness were
made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to
flight the armies of the aliens.
35
Women received their dead raised to life
again: and others were tortured, not accepting
deliverance; that they might obtain a better
resurrection:
36
And others had trial of cruel mockings and
scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and
imprisonment:
37
They were stoned, they were sawn asunder,
were tempted, were slain with the sword: they
wandered about in sheepskins and
goatskins; being destitute, afflicted,
tormented;
38
(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they
wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and
in dens and caves of the earth.
39
And these all, having obtained a good report
through faith, received not the promise:
40
God having provided some better thing for us,
that they without us should not be made
perfect.
Your buddy Max |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 9:17 pm: | |
Ken,
You asked me some time ago if I wouldn't
show you in Scripture where circumcision is
made part of the old covenant. Here is one of
those passages (in the KJV, of course).
Genesis 17
9
And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep
my COVENANT therefore, thou, and thy seed
after thee in their generations.
10
This is my COVENANT, which ye shall keep,
between me and you and thy seed after thee;
Every man child among you shall be
CIRCUMCISED.
11
And ye shall CIRCUMCISE the flesh of your
foreskin; and it shall be a token of the
COVENANT betwixt me and you.
12
And he that is eight days old shall be
CIRCUMCISED among you, every man child in
your generations, he that is born in the house,
or bought with money of any stranger, which is
not of thy seed.
13
He that is born in thy house, and he that is
bought with thy money, must needs be
CIRCUMCISED: and my COVENANT shall be
in your flesh for an everlasting COVENANT.
14
And the UNCIRCUMCISED man child whose
flesh of his foreskin is not CIRCUMCISED,
that soul shall be cut off from his people; he
hath broken my COVENANT.
And so, Ken, you see how inconsistent and
hypocritical SDA teaching is on this point. In
order to be consistent and un-hypocritical, the
SDA denomination would have to either
demand circumcision or drop required
Sabbath-keeping as a test of fellowship and
faith.
N'est pas? |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 9:21 pm: | |
Ken old pal,
I have a big favor to ask of you. Why don't you
get some of your fellow SDAism defenders to
join you on FAFF?
I mean, we've got you outnumbered here, and
somehow that doesn't seem quite fair to you,
at least not in my estimation.
How about it? Game?
Max of the Cross |
Billthompson
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 8:14 am: | |
Ken,
Your statement:
So are you saying all humanity that died before the time of Christ dying for us won't be saved? After all they could not have possibly claimed him & him crucified. Too bad for them I guess.
Am I to conclude from this statement plus your zeal for the 10 Commandments that your believe that people were saved prior to the cross by keeping the 10 C.s? I pray you do not believe this. No, they were saved by faith.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:3 (KJV)
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Romans 4:13 (KJV)
All people before or after the cross are saved by faith not by works Ephesians 2:8,9.
After the cross that faith must include Christ and Him crucified.
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2 (KJV)
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:14 (KJV)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4 (KJV)
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12 (KJV)
Ken, do not ignore the need for faith in Christ after the cross.
I suspected we'd get to the root of the problem with Ken if we stuck to the basics of God's plan of salvation (the Gospel, Good News). Do you all see why he is so zealous for the 10 Commandments. It goes right back to wrong belief about how one is saved.
A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone,
Bill Thompson |
Billthompson
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 8:36 am: | |
Ken,
Still waiting for your answers to the 3 SPECIFIC questions.
I have no desire to embarrass you in public. I have, in the past, tried to communicate with you privately off this forum, with no response from you. I'll appeal to you once more. My e-mail address is
billtod@airmail.net
The e-mail address I got for you from the archives at this site did not get results.
Let's talk.
Bill Thompson |
Maryann
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 10:12 am: | |
Hi Ken,
Gen. 17:13
"13
He that is born in thy house, and he that is
bought with thy money, must needs be
CIRCUMCISED: and my COVENANT shall be
in your flesh for an everlasting COVENANT."
Since circumcision is a covenant that is everlasting and is NOT something that "Christians" do anymore, what could the reason be???
Could it have possibly gone from the physical cutting of the "flesh" to the "spiritual" cutting of the heart?
If the answer is yes, following the same line of thought. Could the "BIG 4th", the sabbath have gone from the physical keeping of a "day" to the spiritual keeping of the sabbath 24hrs 7days continually though out eternity because we BELIEVE we have been redeemed wholly, completely and absolutely by the finished work of Christ and no longer NEED to make "OUR" feeble attemps to be saved by "OUR" own works???
I've noticed that you seldom address the "girls" on this forum. Is there a reason for that? If it will help you respond to an occasional question I ask, I will be glad to use my middle name MIKE;-))
Your friend......Maryann....:):)Mike:):) |
Max
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 11:50 am: | |
Wow, Bill and Maryann,
I'm just blown away by your abilities with
Scripture, both of you! Keep it up.
Ken, I second their every statement.
Remember the old hymn: "The way of the
Cross leads home." Not the way of the Ten.
That leads only to death, which is, of course,
the Cross.
Max of the Cross, not the Ten |
Ken
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 1:26 pm: | |
Hi Maryann:
I don't recall circumcision being talked about in the Ten
Commandments that I'm familiar with maybe you can
point that out to me please.
What is this keeping the Sabbath 24/7? If you kept the
Sabbath the way God...Jesus...Disciples did I don't think
it would be 24/7. If you did I think you'd be called lazy.
It really surprises me that most who post here in all the
Bible study you do that you cannot tell the difference
between Law of Moses, God's Law.
And he said unto them, These are the words which I
spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things
must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of
Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms,
concerning me.
Then opened he their understanding, that they might
understand the scriptures,
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it
behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the
third day:
And that repentance and remission of sins should be
preached in his name among all nations, beginning at
Jerusalem.
And ye are witnesses of these things. Luke 24:44-48
Cheers
Ken |
Max
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 2:14 pm: | |
Buddy Ken,
"I don't recall circumcision being talked about
in the Ten Commandments that I'm familiar
with" either. So I'm with you on that one.
As pointed out in my posts above,
circumcision was already a part of the old
covenant before God the Son gave the Ten
Commandments on Sinai. So there was no
need to reintroduce circumcision as one of the
Ten Commandments and make it the Eleven
Commandments.
Here again is the scriptural proof (KJV):
Genesis 17
9
And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep
my COVENANT therefore, thou, and thy seed
after thee in their generations.
10
This is my COVENANT, which ye shall keep,
between me and you and thy seed after thee;
Every man child among you shall be
CIRCUMCISED.
11
And ye shall CIRCUMCISE the flesh of your
foreskin; and it shall be a token of the
COVENANT betwixt me and you.
12
And he that is eight days old shall be
CIRCUMCISED among you, every man child in
your generations, he that is born in the house,
or bought with money of any stranger, which is
not of thy seed.
13
He that is born in thy house, and he that is
bought with thy money, must needs be
CIRCUMCISED: and my COVENANT shall be
in your flesh for an everlasting COVENANT.
14
And the UNCIRCUMCISED man child whose
flesh of his foreskin is not CIRCUMCISED,
that soul shall be cut off from his people; he
hath broken my COVENANT.
Therefore, circumcision was already a part of
the old covenant before the Ten
Commandments were added to it at Sinai.
Now, Ken, you correctly and rightly pointed out
this:
^^ And he said unto them, These are the
words which I spake unto you, while I was yet
with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which
were written in the law of Moses, and in the
prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
^^
The words of Jesus here confirm that both
circumcision and required Sabbath-keeping
were "were written in the law of Moses," as
you rightly quoted.
Therefore, since both were part of the old
covenant which was "written in the law of
Moses" (Genesis through Deuteronomy), it
makes no sense to me to de-link them by
holding on to the Sabbath and rejecting
circumcision.
Either both were fulfilled by Christ or neither
was. You have to choose between Saviors:
Either Christ is your Savior or the Law of
Moses (including the Ten Commandments
AND circumcision) is your Savior.
Which to you choose?
Max of the Cross |
Max
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 2:28 pm: | |
Hi Ken,
You posted, ^^Did Jesus make that statement
(several times) before or after the cross? In
other words, was that, "it is written," quoted
while the world was under the Old
Covenant?^^
Jesus has been quoted so many times that I
don't know which statement you referred to.
Was it about breaking the Sabbath? If you'll
refresh my memory, I'll be happy to answer
your question. |
Max
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 5:00 pm: | |
Salutations, Ken,
You wrote, ^^What is this keeping the Sabbath
24/7? If you kept the Sabbath the way God ...
Jesus ... Disciples did I don't think it would be
24/7. If you did I think you'd be called lazy.^^
Lazy, huh? Read this:
John 5 (KJV):
16 And therefore did the Jews persecute
Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he
had done these things [healed a man and
commanded him to carry his mat] on the
sabbath day.
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father
worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill
him, because HE [Jesus] not only HAD
BROKEN THE SABBATH, but said also that
God was his Father, making himself equal
with God.
God the Son Jesus Christ was certainly not
lazy! He WORKED on the Sabbath. John 5:17
says so. Furthermore God the Father also
"worketh hitherto" on the Sabbath.
If Maryann worked as hard on the Sabbath as
God the Son and God the Father, then would
she be called lazy? I don't think so.
Max of the Cross |
Maryann
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 8:09 pm: | |
Hi Ken,
You said:
"
I don't recall circumcision being talked about in the Ten Commandments that I'm familiar with maybe you can point that out to me please."
You are absolutely right, circumcision is not mentioned in the "10 C."
What puzzles me to nearly pulling every hair out of my head is that you read things with distorted glasses and JUST wont take them off!!:-(( It would be just sooooooooo simple if you would take them off!!:-))
Anyway, how in the world do you miss the contex of sooooooomany things????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was in NOOOOOOOO way saying or even hinting at saying that circumcision was in the "10 C!"
My whole point (if you will look at the CONTEXT) is:
If circumcision was an EVERLASTING covenant and is NOT obeyed in our day!!
AND
If the sabbath was an EVERLASTING covenant and IS obeyed in our day and age, something is really wrong.
If they are BOTH EVERLASTING covenants, why are they not BOTH still in force and only ONE???????
WELL THEY ARE to tell the truth! BUT SPIRITUALLY!
If they are BOTH NOW EVERLASTING spiritual covenants and you are only attempting to live up to ONE of them PHYSICALLY, you must be attempting to live in a PHYSICAL realm with God!
If you live by one PHYSICALLY, I certainly hope you are living by the other one PHYSICALLY!
Why don't you just give up trying to be like God the Son and be able to live with God the Father in a PHYSICAL realm!
Why don't you just accept the SPIRITUAL REALM that was given to us, pain in full by God the Son? Accept the circumcision of the heart and the eternal sabbath rest that is ours simply for the taking! And leave the "O foolish Galations" in their pitiful misery.
Maryann...God's SPIRITUALLY perfect child in Him! |
Maryann
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 8:59 pm: | |
Hi there Ken ol' buddy,
I have a really serious question brought on by a question that George brought up earlier.
If you can miss the context so many PHYSICAL post's on this site, HOW in the world do you GET the CONTEXT of the SPIRITUAL BOOK of GOD, the BIBLE?
As to being lazy for keeping the sabbath 24/7. What day does your pastor, pastor on? THE SABBATH! RIGHT? He went to school to be a pastor, what, about 4 years. He had to pay good money to become a pastor. RIGHT? He gets paid for working on the SABBATH! He even gets paid on the sabbath to pay off his student loans! Goodness!, he's actually accepting "bucks" on the sabbath. Sooooo, why in the world would you consider keeping the sabbath LAZY???!!! Unless, you figure your pastor is lazy!
Seriously, I choose God the Son being my Sabbath Rest by being hung on the cross for me, you and the entire world rather than me climbin' up there and attemping to do the job.
God the Son's righteousness is accounted to me. He did a work for me and that 24/7 work He did for me is accredited to me too. Now, unless you want to call God the Son's life lazy, and His hanging on the cross lazy, don't consider a Christians 24/7 Sabbath Rest lazy!
Upward and onward......Maryann |
|
