| Author | Message | ||
| Ken |
Come on Patti answer my Questions! Ken: Patti you keep saying law, I did not say law I have always said Commandments! Now please show me Biblically where the Ten Commandments have been destroyed. Am I missing something when in Revelation it plainly says: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:12 Question does it say God? Question does it say commandments? Question what exactly are Gods commandments? I will be eagerly awaiting your thoughtful answer! Ken | ||
| Max |
Hi Ken, In Revelation the word "commandments" ALWAYS refers to the commandments of Jesus, as in, "A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another." John 13:31. It NEVER refers to the "ten commandments" of Exodus 20. And incidentally, "ten commandments" isn't even a biblical term. You will find it in neither the New Testament nor in the Old. There are not ten commandments in the Old Testament. There are 613. Does this answer your question? | ||
| Max |
Ken again, Oops, I forgot to notice that you had more than one question. You had three. I'll try my hand at answering. You wrote, ^^ Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:12 Question does it say God? Question does it say commandments? Question what exactly are Gods commandments? ^^ Question: Does the verse say God? Answer: Yes, since Jesus is God. So John is saying here that the saints keep the commandments of Jesus. Queston: Does it say commandments? Answer: Yes, since these are the commandments of Jesus as stated, for example, in the sermon on Mount Blessings in Matthew 5. Question: What exactly are God's commandments? Answer: They are the commandments of Jesus Christ our God. And nowhere among them will be found, for instance, the Fourth Commandment of Exodus 20. It was only a long shadow on the desert floor of legalism pointing to Christ hanging on the cross. When following this shadow we found Christ we saw that this commandment, along with all the rest of the 613, had been nailed to Christ's cross. And in place of the 613 is Jesus Christ himself alone, the fulfillment of the law: His birth, life, teachings (including all the commandments you will ever need in this life), death, resurrection and ascension. You still have permission (in Romans 14) to keep the Sabbath holy if you want, but you can no longer claim it as a commandment of God. You need to accept this, Ken, for it is the gospel in full. Your friend, Max | ||
| Max |
Oops again, Ken, I guess I neglected to answer a request of yours: ^^Now please show me Biblically where the Ten Commandments have been destroyed. ^^ Answer: Colossians 2:13-15 NIV: ^^ When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcison of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code [a FIRST time your answer, all 613, including the 10 of Exodus 20], with its regulations [a SECOND time your answer, all 613 are included], that was against us; he took it away [a THIRD time your answer], nailing it to the cross [a FOURTH time your answer]. And having disarmed the powers and authorities [a FIFTH time your answer], he made a public spectacle of them [a SIXTH time your answer], triumphing over them [a SEVENTH time your answer] by the cross. ^^ Ken, you need to see that accepting the gospel is for your personal good, not harm. God loves you and doesn't want you to be crucified by the 613 Old Testament commandments the way Christ was. For that is exactly what they will do to you in the long run. Your only hope is to accept by faith that Christ has fulfilled them for you. This is pure grace, pure gospel, pure love: You are DECLARED righteous, DELCARED holy, DECLARED sinless, DELCARED perfect. It is ALL in Christ. There is NOTHING in it of yourself. In your corner, Max | ||
| Ken |
Hi Max: Way to twist a very simple scripture. Max do you believe in the Trinity? Aren't God and Jesus Father & Son? By the way just how many commandments did God write on the stone anyhow? 613? I thought not! Ken | ||
| Billthompson |
Ken, You're back! When you last appeared on this forum several of us asked you to share your testimony with us. This is a very basic, foundational thing which most Christians are happy to share. Will you stop avoiding this most important of all issues and simply reply to our questions? In your testimony please address specificly: --What are you trusting in for salvation? --Did the blood of Jesus cover just your past sins or ALL your sins? --Do you have a firm assurance of salvation? Since you only seem to wish to discuss the 10 Commandments or the Sabbath, am I to assume that this is what you are trusting in for your salvation, your ability to keep the 10 Commandments, especially the fourth? This is not "Good News" if this is where your hope lies. Jesus is the only sinless one to ever live on this earth. Please, answer our questions Ken. A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Max |
Hi Ken, Question: Do I believe in the trinity? Answer: "Trinity" is not a biblical term, but rather a word invented by theologians to describe the nature of God as three-in-one and one-in-three. This is, of course, a paradox. And it is one that I accept, but only as mystery. What I "believe in" is the Word, who is God testified to as future in the Old Testament and witnessed in the flesh by the New. The Word, Jesus Christ our God, is God the Son in the New Testament, known as Yaweh in the Old Testament. The relationship among the three persons of the godhead is mysterious and paradoxical, as well it should be to our eyes that "see through a glass darkly." Will answer your next question next post. Thanks for listening, Max | ||
| Max |
Hi Ken again, Question from you: How many commandments did God write on the stone? 613? Answer from me: No, 10. What you thought is correct. Question for you: What's your point? Your friend, Max | ||
| Billthompson |
Ken, I am still wondering why you see the 10 Commandments as more important than God's plan of salvation, or do you you think they are part of what saves a person? I am still waiting to hear your answer to my three simple questions above. If we can not agree on the basic plan of salvation then we are waisting our time on these peripheral issues. The pharisees and Saducees could wax eloquent on the law and 10 Commandments but did not know the Messiah when He walk among them. Let's put first things first. A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Billthompson |
Ken, I tried to write to you in private to get your answer about the basics of God's plan of salvation and you never replied. I'll just have to continue asking on the forum I guess. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Ken, Good to see you back again!:) Did you ever get the book, "The King James Only Controversy?" Maryann | ||
| Patti |
Ken, Ken, Ken.... You asked those questions of CAROL, not of me. I told you that on CARM! Perhaps you should get your facts straight before you publish your accusations in public. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Ken |
Hi Patti: I am so sorry Patti! They were intended for you. She may have been tangled up in the discussion but the Questions were intended, and I believe directed to you. Please Patti forgive me. Ken | ||
| Max |
Greetings Ken, I see you've checked back in. Can you tell me: 1. How I have twisted the meaning of Colossians 2:13-15? 2. What your point is in asking me how many commandments were written on stone? | ||
| Patti |
Ken, It is quite all right. We all get mixed up from time to time. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Ken |
Hi Max: Since you like indepth Bible dissection, have you been to David Conklin's web site to see his study on this? Let's talk after you go to his site. http://biblestudy.iwarp.com/ Ken | ||
| Max |
Hi Ken, Thanks, but no thanks. No triangulation is necessary or even desirable. As saved sinner Bill Thompson says, "Let's put first things first." Let's talk now. To begin, I have something to say to you: You said to Patti, "Come on Patti answer my Questions!" And, "I will be eagerly awaiting your thoughtful answer! " You did not ask her to reconvene at David Conklin's web site. So, using your own words, I say to you now, Come on, Ken, answer my questions! I will be eagerly awaiting your thoughtful answers! Fair is fair, is it not? Still your friend if you'll have me as one, Max | ||
| Max |
Ken again, Lest it be said of you, as you said of Patti -- Ken will not or cannot answer these questions on FAFF, PLEASE help him! -- lest that be said of you, please answer my two very simple questions. They are only follow-ups appropos to two assertions you made regarding one of my posts addressed to you. Allow me to repeat them here: 1. How I have twisted the meaning of Colossians 2:13-15? 2. What your point is in asking me how many commandments were written on stone? Patiently awaiting your reply, Max | ||
| Ken |
Hello Max: First of all I want to say that my KJV Bible is worded way different than your Bible. Mine says nothing about 613 laws.... So I'll post the verses from mine below. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. If you think this is referring to the Commandments of God then how do you blot out stone? If this passage refers to God's commandments, how are God's 10 Commandments against us. The first four are discriptions of our Love to God. The last six are our Love to our fellow man. Their is absolutly no way that our unchanging God would all the sudden chuck these. My point in asking you how many Commandments there are, was just to see if you think John was talking in Rev. 14:12 about the same Commandments that I'm use to. Ken | ||
| Max |
Thanks, Ken, for answering. I respect anyone who has this kind of courage. Many don't, you know. My answer: 1. All 613 of the Old Testament laws are found in the KJV as surely as they are in the NIV. Most importantly, however, the Big 613 are all found in the HEBREW Bible, from which both the KJV and the NIV have been translated. 2. Colossians 2:13-15 doesn't use the "stone" metaphor, but rather the "handwriting" metaphor. The entire Old Testament was handwritten. And according to this text, it was "taken out of the way" and "nailed to the cross" (KJV). 3. For the "stone" metaphor, look, for example, in Matthew 21:42 NIV where ^^ Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone [our God Jesus Christ] the bulders [Pharisees and all legalists] rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes.'" ^^ Thus the "stone" upon which was written the Ten Commandments was REPLACED by the "stone" which is our God Jesus Christ. As God he has the right to replace something he himself had made. More next post, Max of the Cross |
