| Author | Message | ||
| Patti |
Have you heard about the controversy raging around Morris Venden at Atoday? This is very disturbing, indeed, even for a former SDA. Vendon had a large following among my SDA peers about the time I left the church. Many thought that he was indeed preaching the pure Gospel of righteousness by faith. The conservatives are using this allegation as an opportunity to discredit the entire notion of "righteousness by faith." I have found, however, in my studies, that Venden was preaching the Waggonerian gospel, and he made some very basic mistakes in interpretation, just as Waggoner did. And I find it interesting the references made to discussion of "spiritual" wives and mistresses. If one will study it out, he will find that Waggoner made the same mistake, taking himself a "spiritual" wife which was the ultimate breakup of his marriage. Is it possible that Venden is following in Waggoner's footsteps? The mistake that Waggoner made is well-documented. Early in his career, even up until 1888, he made a distinction between the righteousness that justifies us (the perfect merits of our Lord imputed to us because of our faith in Him) and the effective regeneration that happens inside the believer. From this point on, however, he began to blur the distinctions between what Christ has done for us, and what the Holy Spirit does in us.. The first one is nothing less than the perfect work of Jesus Christ in our behalf. It is complete, once-for-all, perfect, and unrepeatable. It is the basis of our eternal destiny. The second is incomplete, imperfect, on-going, and always tainted with sinfulness. Waggoner's claim (and Venden's) was that the righteousness that is of faith is the righteousness of Christ which is imputed to the believer but which also includes the regeneration of the believer. Thus being "righteous by faith" meant being justified by the forensic pronouncement of God and the active righteousness produced in the believer by the Holy Spirit. This is typical Arminian theology. This is where the Catholic church stands and where SDAism remains. By including our regeneration--the work of the Holy Spirit IN us--in the righteousness that is of faith--the righteousness by which we are saved--Waggoner (and Venden) kept the believer focusing on himself. There are two possible deadly consequences of believing that our regeneration is a part of the righteousness which saves us: 1. We see our true sinfulness, and we suffer in anguish and uncertainty if we are truly accepted by a holy God. (This is where young Luther found himself.) If we do not find the comfort of knowing that our salvation comes only of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ, we will either die spirituall from discouragement, or turn our backs on what we perceive as a relentless and unforgiving God. 2. We blind ourselves to our true inner condition, and convince ourselves that our personal works are being accomplished by Jesus Christ living in us, and, therefore, they are good and righteous and holy. E. J. Waggoner chose this latter path, and eventually was deeply entangled in the dark and thorny forest of pantheism. If even part of our eternal salvation depends upon the works of our hands, then we can and must constantly examine our lives to see if we "measure up" yet. And the danger in this is that when we are focusing on ourselves, we cannot focus on Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Now this may seem merely academic, but the implications are very significant. Taken to its logical and ultimate end, as a brilliantly logical mind such as Waggoner's would do, if a person truly believes that Jesus Christ is "living out His life" in them, then is it really possible for that person to produce anything but perfect works? Therefore, any evil in the person is disavowed or disacknowledged, because, after all, would Jesus Christ do an imperfect work? Which leads directly--again if one is logical, honest, and persistent--into pantheism. If Christ is living in me, then is He not living in you also? And your neighbors? And then it becomes: And if He is living in us, then is He not also living in all of His creation? Waggoner showed pantheistic tendencies as early as 1897. In fact, when he addressed the General Conference, no one commented on the already-present pantheistic bent of his words: "All things stand by his Word. He spoke, and it was. So when we look abroad on the things of nature, we see evidences of his power. When we look over the meadow, we see the Word of God made grass. God spake, and, lo! that Word appeared as a tree, or as grass....." [This was received and accepted without comment by the officials of the GC. No one seemed to recognize these as pantheistic statements.] "As the last act of creation, God made man. And as in all creation we see the Word of God made trees, grass, etc., in man we see the Word of God made flesh...." "So just as God made man, and crowned him with glory and honor, we now see the man Jesus, that Man who is in every man crowned with honor and glory; and he added all things unto him. [E. J. Waggoner, "Studies in the Book of Hebrews," no. 3, General Conference Daily Bulletin 1, no. 3 (16 Feb. 1897): 345.] "Christ has come in the flesh, my flesh. Why? Is it because I am so good?-O, no; for there is no good flesh for Christ to come into. Christ has come in the flesh, in every man's flesh. "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." The life is the light, and lights every man. In other words, every man in this world lives upon the grace of God. "It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed;" and that is true of the man who blasphemes God. Where did that man get his breath?-From God. God continues breath to him in his wickedness, in order that the gift may reveal God's goodness and he repent: for it is the goodness of God. He is kind to the evil and the good; he sends rain upon the just and the unjust; that is God. E. J. Waggoner, "Studies in the Book of Hebrews," no. 6, General Conference Daily Bulletin 1, no. 5 (18 Feb. 1897): 70-71. "Now what we want is to stop trifling. If the Lord is so near, and to be found, we want to find him; and he says: Seek ye the Lord while he is near. While he may be found, call upon him. While he is near, 0, so near that you do not have to go across the room; you do not have to go anywhere at all but here; he is within you. He was so near me all those years that I did not know anything about him, and he was bearing my sin. Why?-Because the Lord Jesus is in everything that he has made. He upholds all hings, because he is in them. He is cohesion even to inanimate nature. It is the personal, powerful presence of God that keeps the mountains together, and the stones from crumbling to pieces; because God is there with his personal power. And we saw yesterday about the grass, and the trees, and the rootlets,-that they take up the nourishment that is adapted to them, and leave to one side that which is not fitted for them. That fine discrimination which takes what is necessary for them, and leaves the other aside, we saw was nothing but the power of God doing for them just what we say is instinct in the animals; and when it comes to man, we call it reason. That is God's personal presence. Now if we acknowledge that he is in us, that we are as grass and plants, and acknowledge that as truly as the grass itself does, then this power of God will lead us to make just the same right choice as does the grass, the rootlet, and the tree, in choosing that which is necessary for them.... Crucified and risen in the flesh, in every man's flesh, I carry to the people that message, Behold your God, crucified and risen, not far from you, but in your mouth and heart; believe that he is your life, that he was crucified and has risen to deliver you from death and sin. When we recognize that, then he will fill us. "What is righteousness? Doing right. Then many shall do right; that is clear. And how will many do right?-By the obedience of One. Well, then, if I am made righteous by his obedience, if I do right by his obedience, where does he obey?-In me. What am I doing?-Letting him, submitting to the righteousness of God.... "Then, when Christ in us obeys,-mark, when Christ in us obeys,-how much power has the devil against us?- None. When we allow Christ to fill us through the Spirit, so that we are filled with all the fullness of God, then we have power "over all the power of the enemy." What is our part? - Submission. "Now, that same work of submission is enough for you and me all the rest of our lives. To submit, to give up, and to keep giving up, or rather, to keep given up, as new experiences arise, is all we have to do; and it will occupy all our time. There is work enough for us, then, to hold still, and let the Lord fill us with his Spirit, and work us. That does not mean laziness; it is passive activity, if you please; it means being just as active as the Lord himself was; because Christ himself living in us will be just the same as he was when he was here on the earth.. "Then God will live in us, and will choose for us just the same as in the tree. We do not know anything, but he will think for us.... "... but he will think in us everything that he desires us to think, and will work in us perfectly to will and to do his good pleasure. Then we will be organized, reorganized, made new. It is God thinking and acting in us. E. J. Waggoner, "Studies in the Book of Hebrews," no. 9, General Conference Daily Bulletin 1, no. 10 (25 Feb. 1897): 159 "When we believe that all flesh is grass, we simply allow God in us to choose for us as he chooses in the rootlet and the plant, to select that thing which is necessary. The rootlet will go a long distance in search of what it needs, and will find it every time. It will go a long distance to find moisture, and leave the dry place alone. It is passive in the hands of the Lord, and the Lord chooses for it, and it is simply right. E. J. Waggoner, "Studies in the Book of Hebrews," no. 8, General Conference Daily Bulletin 1, no. 7 (22 Feb. 1897): 101-2, 104. I hope this exemplifies to you the dire need for the total distinction between the righteousness that saves us (the historic and fulfilled obedience of Jesus Christ) and the righteousness in us (the incomplete, never-perfect, sin-tainted works of our own hands. E. J. Waggoner slipped far from depending upon the saving work of Jesus Christ alone. In just the few statements quoted above, he exemplified the heresies of pantheism, quietism, perfectionism, and passivism. I am not saying that Venden reach this point, but such a belief system allowed Waggoner also to believe that one could have a "spiritual wife," one that was meant for the next world, and, therefore, was perfectly acceptable for him to unite with in this life, despite already being married. If any of the claims are true, that there was discussion of a "spiritual" wife or partner, then we have a case of history repeating itself. I pray for Venden and for his alleged victim that they both find that there is no peace nor assurance in anything other than the perfectly accomplished salvation that we find in Jesus Christ. If you would like to research the Waggoner story further, his biography is now available at this website: www.presenttruthmag.com/7dayadventist/waggoner1.thml In the meantime, we should all remember any of our colleagues, past or present, who are struggling to find assurance in their acceptance with God. | ||
| Patti |
Very interesting. Atoday canned this entire thread about Venden today. I can understand why. They should have never let it get started in the first place. But they allowed it to go on and on for several days (5 archives full of stuff) without interference, until some folks started pointing out that the gospel that Venden was teaching was not the true gospel. That his version of righteousness by faith always included the works of the believer instead of standing solely on the finished and perfect work of Jesus Christ. It appears that they would allow Venden to be publicly thrashed, but could not stand for the Gospel of salvation by the doing and dying of Jesus Christ alone to overshadow his believer-centered gospel. | ||
| Patti |
I spoke too soon. The thread was moved, not deleted. I was wrong in passing judgment upon the operators of A-today. I apologize. | ||
| Allenette |
The Morris Venden thread is the most active one on there!!! Sheesh if I ever needed an excuse to stay away from organized religion, especially SDA, check it out!!! Talk about wolves in sheeps clothing~just typical SDA and very prob, every other denomination | ||
| Patti |
You are right, Allenette. Seems this one is a particularly juicy tidbit. However, it is not just in organized religion, it is everywhere in the world. It just seems worse in a religious setting because of the claims of piety that are made. But it is all just a tempest in a teapot. Venden's alleged sins are no worse than the ones delighting in the gossip. Thank goodness we are saved by the obedience of Another and not by our own "righteousness." I have always said, still believe, btw, that organized religion is an oxymoron. | ||
| Max |
I hope this thread fades away into merciful oblivion. | ||
| Rayna |
GREAT JOB PATTI. RAYNA |
