| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Ken again, You wrote of the Ten Commandments, "Their is absolutly no way that our unchanging God would all the sudden chuck these." In order to make that claim you have to deny Colossians 2 and many other New Testament chapters. But our God Jesus Christ didn't "chuck" the Ten Commandments. They were fulfilled and replaced by something better, our God Jesus Christ himself as revealed in his incarnation, birth, life, teachings (commandments), death, resurrection, ascension, and sitting down at the right hand of our Father in heaven. As far as God being unchanging is concerned, he is not unchanging in all ways. For example, to move from place to place involves change of location. So when Christ ascended into heaven, he changed. This is not the kind of changelessness referred to in Scripture. That kind of changelessness involves his righteousness. That is what is changeless, not the way he relates to us people: that changes according to the situation. More next post, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Dear Ken, Notice what Hebrews 1:1 NIV says about the changed situation when Christ came: ^^ In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. ^^ The Ten Commandments was one of those ways (Hebrew, "bits and pieces"). As good as it may have been for its time and place and people, the Ten Commandments was NOT "the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being." The Son was and is. This is why the Son is SUPERIOR to the Ten and why it was necessary to REPLACE the Ten, as well as all the rest of the Big 613, with the person of our God Jesus Christ. This is not the same as "just chucking" the Ten. Far, far from that! Max of the Cross | ||
| Ken |
Hi Max: Max you still did not answer the question about how the 10 Commandments can be against us. You said nothing about the 10 Commandments not being against us. Come now let's reason sensibly. The only things that were against us, (all the burnt offerings, meat offerings, drink offerings etc.) thats what was done away with by the doing & dying of Jesus our Savior. Look in the dictionary to see what ordinance means (religious rite, ceremony). I don't think the 10 Commandments qualifies here. Please let me know what you think. Ken | ||
| Max |
Ken again, The text under discussion, Colossians 2:13-15, doesn't deal specifically with the Ten Commandments. It deals rather with all 613 Old Testament Commandments, "the written code, with its regulations, that was against us." How can the written code be "against us"? Reason No. 1: Because Paul SAYS it was "against us" in the very text itself. Reason No. 2: Throughout his writings Paul repeatedly demonstrates how the "written code, with its [613] regulations" can be "against us." 1 Corinthians 15:56 NIV, for example: "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." This is a far cry from "the burnt offerings, meat offerings, drink offerings" being against us. That "the sting of death" is "against us" is obvious and reasonable. But any idea that the various offerings are "against us" is neither obvious nor reasonable. Let PAUL speak for himself, Ken. My dictionary, Webster's Tenth, says the word "ordinace" is (1) "an authoritative decree or direction," (2) "a law set forth by a governmental authority," (3) "something ordained or decdreed by fate or a deity," or (4) "a prescribed usage, practice or ceremony." And so, Ken, it is rather obvious that the Old Testament "written code" of 613 regulations well qaulifies here and easily meets the dictionary test. God's blessings upon thee, Max of the cross | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Ken, You still have not answered my question as to whether or not you have read the book, "The King James Only Controversy?" Also, when are you going to answer Bill's questions??????: "--What are you trusting in for salvation? --Did the blood of Jesus cover just your past sins or ALL your sins? --Do you have a firm assurance of salvation?" You should really answer those before you get going with Max lest anyone think you were evading such basic and simple questions. Also, you said to Max: "Max you still did not answer the question about how the 10 Commandments can be against us. You said nothing about the 10 Commandments not being against us. Come now let's reason sensibly." How can you ask Max to reason with you sensibly and to answer "YOUR" questions when you have repetedly refused to answer Bill's 3 questions?????? close to a dozen times???? Think about it......Maryann | ||
| Chyna |
dear ken, you are correct in thinking that the 4th commandment was an important commandment. but, if you'll read several threads here, you'll understand that the importance behind keeping the Sabbath is rest, just like how God commanded the Jewish people to make animal sacrifices to show the seriousness of sin and how it needed to be atoned for in blood. 2 Corinthians 3:1-5 1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart. 4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, like max said, it's not that the "ten commandments" have no place in Christianity, but they do need to be put in proper context. you'll see in the new testament several times saying that the New Covenant is BETTER than the Old Covenant. who could dispute that? under the old covenant we would have had to obey the law which is the 613 commandments, make animal sacrifices for our sins and never would be fully atoned for. under the new covenant we have jesus as our sacrifice once, and it was finished. in the words of jesus: Matt 9:16 No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch pulls away from the garment, and the tear is made worse. 17 Nor do they put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved." Hebrews 8:6-13 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant (the new covenant) that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds F34 I will remember no more." 13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. there you have it, the old covenant is obsolete, and there's no denying those commandments writ upon stone are part of that old covenant which the Paul says that he made the first obsolete Galatians 4:21-31 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage (what came from Mount Sinai? the ten commandments written on stone), which is Hagar-- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband." 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free. doesn't that just make your heart want to burst out with joy? to me, ken, your argument seems to be founded in keeping the law, or what you think the bible refers to as the law as the commandments written on stone, given to Moses. things you are neglecting: the laws written on stone were given specifically to the nation of Israel. how do i say this? Ro 2:12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; Ro 2:13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. Ro 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, see here? Gentiles, read all us non Jewish people were not given the Law (including the ten commandments) the same way the nation of Israel did. Romans 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law (nation of Israel, the Jews), but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham (all Christians), who is the father of us all, see how Paul made a distinction between those of the law (the jews), and those of the faith (believers}? in Acts 15, there is an interesting debate about Jewish people trying to make the new Gentile believers follow the Law of Moses which included circumscion. notice in that passage that they wrote to them about not worshipping idols, but they didn't write to them about keeping the Sabbath (which I have now proven that it was given to the nation of Israel, included under the title of 'the law of Moses') also another fact to note: when Adam and Eve were created they couldn't "covet" another person's wife :), there was no neighbor's wife to covet :). so these "big 10" were not in place at Creation. basically, Adam and Eve were not under the law. think of that. they were not under the law. then Paul says again to those who desire to be under the law that they are children of the slavewoman. Paul speaks scornfully to those that desire to be under the law. as you, ken, are proposing. think of the definition of the fourth commandment, what does it point to? Rest. restrestrestrestrest. this is why sevvy's (borrowed from an aussie) go hiking on Saturdays or sit around and read quietly. i dunno, "restful" things. why does God want us to rest so badly? or, more Biblically accurate, why did God want Israel to rest so badly? because of respite from the physical toll? That doesn't seem to have much to do with the central message of the Bible: Salvation. the physical rest is not what God wanted the emphasis on, He wanted the physical rest to symbolize the rest from labour we have in Christ by Salvation. Adam and Eve didn't have to toil until they were cast out of the Garden. God wanted the nation of Israel to know that He was going to give them Ultimate Rest, kinda like the Ultimate thirst quenching drink of Salvation, huh. now, you're going to ask me what about the other 9. well, you'll find several times in the Bible that the summation of all law is love. Romans 13:8-10 8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. law - nomos nomož from a primary nemo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Definition anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command of any law whatsoever a law or rule producing a state approved of God 1a by the observance of which is approved of God a precept or injunction the rule of action prescribed by reason of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT fulfill - pleroo from (4134) Definition to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally I abound, I am liberally supplied to render full, i.e. to complete to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim to consummate: a number to make complete in every particular, to render perfect to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise of matters of duty: to perform, execute of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment NAS Word Usage - Total: 87 accomplish 1, accomplished 1, amply supplied 1, approaching 1, complete 1, completed 3, completing 1, elapsed 1, fill 3, filled 16, fills 1, finished 1, fulfill 20, fulfilled 20, fully carry 1, fully come 1, fully preached 1, increasing 1, made complete 2, made full 5, make...full 1, make...complete 1, passed 2, supply 1 the purpose of the law: Ro 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; Ro 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. Ro 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested (in Jesus Christ, the Salvation), being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Ro 3:27 Where then is boasting ? It is excluded. By what kind of law ? Of works ? No, but by a law of faith. Ro 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Ro 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. what is the purpose of a law, anyway? to be fulfilled :). Matthew 22:37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." ___________ ok, so that was another whirlwind of Scripture. great scripture though. what i want, ken, is for you to see the ten commandments in the context of the MAIN IDEA of the Bible. Salvation. Paul tells us the Law was given so that Romans 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, The Law was given to show us how we could never be Holy, never could be righteous. no one could keep those 613 commandments (the torah) except Jesus. and in there, is that niggling commandment that sevvy's like to make such a hullaboo about. like max stated, it was a shadow, just like the animal sacrifices could never atone for our sin, likewise the physical sabbath rest could never give us true rest of the Garden. but! there it a light at the end of the tunnel satisfying both sevvy's and nonsevvy's :). Hebrews 4:7-10 7 He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before , "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS." 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. when are we to have Sabbath rest? every day that is called "Today" notice how the languages says, He again fixes a certain day. notice the replacement of the Seventh Day ordinance to the Today ordinance :). We are to have Sabbath Rest everyday? What is Sabbath Rest? A restoration to the our state before the fall, before "work" before even "law" existed. in short, Salvation. in Salvation the concept of the Sabbath - which is rest, was fulfilled, and given to us INTERNALLY. therefore, everyday we are able to keep the fourth commandment because we are saved :). within our Salvation, Jesus has given us what the Sabbath was pointing to: rest. in Him, Chyna p.s. last note 1 Corinthians 3:12-16 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. this is the same chapter about writing on hearts instead of tablets. this is what i think most sevvy's are in danger of. seeing the old testament with a veil over it. notice that what they were trying to look at was fading away. in the sda baptismal thingy, they make you say that you will abstain from unclean foods (as per listed in OT), but they totally neglect the fact that God made Peter eat all those unclean things :). now why would God do that? :) same thing with the 4th commandment. they are seeing it without seeing it turning to the Lord because it's only when we turn to God's plan of salvation do we fully understand the law of moses and the ten commandments and the entire old testament. what happens if we view the old testament the law of moses with an unveiled face? 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. we have liberty and are transformed :). how's that for reading the old testament in light of Salvation :). as Mel Gibson so aptly put it: FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Chyna |
ugh, my rehash got canceled, but here it is again, in my own inimitable charm. in an SAT like manner I will show you that ten commandments is part of the law. here we go: the ten commandments are part of the law of moses. HOW do we know that? Well, Moses brought 'em down. Therefore, the big ten are part of the law of Moses. The law of Moses is part of the Old Covenant. Max likes to refer the old covenant as the 613 commandments. the reason why he likes doing this, i think, is because it shows that the Law is much more complicated than just those ten. when Jesus came was He only to obey the ten? NO NO NO. He was subject to all 613, which means he wore tassels and He probably wore those headpiece thingies modern Orthodox Jews like to wear. Jesus was subject to the Law. and here is where you cannot deny that the ten commandments are part of the law. if Jesus was subject to the Law, and had to obey the TEN, then the TEN are part of the Law. simple, that. in fact, if you called the ten commandments, the ten laws, people might look askance, but they would realize what you're talking about because they are synonyms. the ten commandments are part of the law of moses. the law of moses is part of the old covenant. in an SAT analogy question, it would be posed as this: ten commandments: law of moses law of moses: ??? ??? would be old covenant. ok, you toss out your challenges ken. now try to tell me how the ten commandments are not part of the law of Moses? :), Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
*sigh* another message to further clarifiy. it seems, ken, you are trying to use Revelations to "prove" that we still need to keep the fourth commandment. the reason why i pinpoint this one is because the other ones are fulfilled within the Law of Love, which i have pointed out earlier. let me again reiterate that the 10 given on stone are part of the Law. it says so here in romans. the passage belows states that if there is ANY COMMANDMENT, including the ones mentioned, that they are summed up in Loving your Neighbor, and that Love is the Fulfillment of the Law therefore, from this point onward you cannot deny that the ten commandments are part of what the New Testament refers to as Law. Romans 13:8-10 8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. why we so vehemently argue against hallowing the Old Covenant is because there is no room for the light and grace of Salvation to shine through. Our Salvation is NOT about obeying commandments. it's about our INABILITY to obey commandments, and the grace of God that covers that inability in Jesus Christ. that beautiful verse you reference your argument about shows us that saints, the ones that are faithful follow the commandment of love. in which the Law is fulfilled. it really makes me mad when some try to make living a godly life about "observing the sabbath" and "not eating unclean meat," or even "not wearing jewelry." ken, your only contention about the saints keeping commandments of God is that we still need to observe the sabbath. however, saved Christians are already observing the sabbath because Jesus has given us Sabbath Rest every single day moment of our lives. only those that see the law of Moses with a veil think we still need to observe it physically according to the precepts written in the OT. with love, Chyna | ||
| Maryann |
Chyna, Chyna, Chyna:):), To me and my little "pointed head" (as Wendy called it), that WAS the MOST comprehensive study I have ever seen on this subject!!!!! (Or maybe I have a crearer mind with a headache???!) Romans 13:8-10 was AWESOME!!!! even awesome(r) than the rest of your post's that were totally awesome! One thing you need to understand about Ken is that he WILL NOT listen to ANY Bible you print out other that the King James. Any other version is a NON-Bible jibberish of words!!! That is why I keep asking him if he has read the "King James Only Controversy." If you are of the mind to do it, use the KJ when talking to Ken. You know, talk to him at where he is at. AND he is AT the KJO!!! If you have access to an authorized 1611 version, use that!!! Maybe he would see how many changes HIS authorized KJ has changed over the last 400 years!!!!:):) Last night at the FAF meeting, I heard something that REALLY made good sense to me. Through Adam, we inherited OUR sin nature. We DID NOTHING to get that sin nature. It was passed to US through NOTHING WE DID! Through Jesus (the new Adam) we inherited OUR sinLESS nature. It was passed to US through NOTHING WE DID! We DID NOTHING to perfect OUR sinFUL nature EXCEPT BELIEVE!!!! Maryann | ||
| Ken |
Hi Max: You needed a little correction from an above post. MAX: And incidentally, "ten commandments" isn't even a biblical term. You will find it in neither the New Testament nor in the Old. There are not ten commandments in the Old Testament. There are 613. MAX: Does this answer your question? KEN: No! KEN: What is this verse below in reference to if not God's great Ten Commandments? And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. Exodus 34:28 KEN: Ahhhhhhhhhhhh so you have been wrong at least once! Ken | ||
| Billthompson |
To All, I am refusing to discuss the 10 Commandments or other law issues with Ken until he first answers my questions about the basic plan of salvation. I think those of you who continue to discuss these issues with him may wrongly help him believe they are more important than the Good News that Jesus paid our sin debt in full. Please let's put first things first, be sure he knows the Good News and has a personal relationship with the Saviour before engaging in endless, pointless debates that do not save anyone. Ken, I really do not want to have to go to other forums you post on and say "KEN will not or cannot answer these simple questions on the FAF forum, PLEASE help him". I really do not want to do that, it is not my style. I have to admit, however, my first reaction to seeing you start a thread here saying someone else would not or could not answer your questions, was to go right over to that forum you mentioned and tell them how you have refused or been unable to answer the simplest of questions here on this forum. I actually wanted to talk to you in private, off the forum but could not get you to respond. I'll continue to patiently await your response to the most basic questions a Christian can face. I'll repeat them here once again: --What are you trusting in for salvation? --Did the blood of Jesus cover just your past sins or ALL your sins? --Do you have a firm assurance of salvation? I believe we have discovered the root of the problem here. Back to basics! A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Lori |
I heard a very interesting sermon about the Sabbath a couple of days ago (this is from a minister who has no Adventist ties, his perspective is coming from the legalistic Sunday keepers, who keep Sunday much in the same regard as any "good" Sabbath keeper would) He stated that the Sabbath in Genesis was NEVER a rest from creation (it's ridiculous to think God was tired and He had to rest. And what had man done? Man had done nothing!). The Sabbath IS a memorial to Gods grace (God had provided everything that man would ever need and there was nothing else to be done) in the perfect environment that God provided nothing else was ever required for the existence of Adam and Eve. God had done it all!! Adam and Eve could now enjoy what God had done. The Sabbath in Ex. 16:23 is the same thing, a memorial to Gods grace. God had brought the Israelites out of Egypt and provided them with food (manna) and nothing else needed to be done. God had done it all and the Israelites could now enjoy the benefits of His grace. The Sabbath was given to Israel as a memorial to Gods grace. God had provided everything they needed and there was nothing they could do to "add to" what he had provided. It was to point them to the coming grace of God at the cross. At the cross, Christ provided EVERYTHING we will ever need for salvation, there is nothing that we can do--to "add to" the work HE accomplished on the cross. Can you see, now, how Israel's Sabbath is the shadow of the reality of the cross? It's beautiful, isn't it? God has provided everything we will ever need for our walk on earth; there is nothing we can do to "add to" what he has provided. God gave the Sabbath to remind His people that He was taking care of EVERYTHING, there was nothing they could do to "help" Him!!! --God gave His Son to show believers that he had provided EVERYTHING and that they could do nothing to "help" Him complete the job. It is sad to realize how the devil has taken the truth about the Sabbath and twisted it. It was given as a "you can do nothing, I am doing everything for you" but instead false leaders have taken it and turned it into "this is the thing you can do for the completion of your salvation, this is something you MUST do in order to be saved". Something that Adventist don't take into account is that the Sabbath as given to Israel was not connected to their spiritual life. They did not lose their salvation because they violated the Sabbath, yes, they lost their physical life, but our physical existence and our spiritual existence are not the same. (Oops, I guess this isn't a good illustration when you believe that your soul dies. Which leads me to the question: how can eternal life be "eternal" if it stops at some point? But that is another discussion.) And, yes, Ken, you have proved Max in error in the fact that the "ten commandments" IS written in scripture, however, the very finding of that scripture on your part is also proof that the stand you are taking on the ten commandments is in error! Lori | ||
| Ken |
Howdy Lori & Bill: Lori, If the Ten Commandments are only for the Jews, (and theirs plenty of support that they aren't) then what about Revelation 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Bill, I'll answer your three questions with one simple answer. I Love the the Lord my God with all my Heart, Soul, Strenght & Mind. That's all I can do! The Lord is the only one that looketh on the Heart. He is the only one who can judge my Faith. All I have and am is His... Ken | ||
| Chyna |
hi maryann, thanks for the encouraging words :) y'know, i've come to see a pattern here. there are always the dissonant voices that rile us up and make us go search the Scriptures, but :) as frustrating as it may be sometimes, it has lots of rewards for us that return to God's word to see what He says. i tried to use New King James version most of the time. basically, it doesn't matter. not until Ken fully understands salvation will he realize that clinging to one verse that says the word "commandments" does not refer to the ten, but rather the law of love. Also, if Ken is so hung up on being Biblically accurate (if that's the reason why he only thinks KJV is valid), he should only study the bible in the original Hebrew and Greek :). i have been up and down the entire subject of Sabbath, and when i finally came to the stunning conclusion that God has not abolished Sabbath, but has contained within Salvation Sabbath Rest I thought sevvy's would be happy with that conclusion, yet they still aren't satisfied with a perfect blend of law and grace. they are still looking to physical deeds/good works to make themselves righteous. *sigh* so, again the only answer is prayer that the veil will be lifted. love, Chyna p.s. ken, you didn't answer all three questions with that answer 1. in what/whom are you trusting in 2. how much does the blood of jesus cover for you? 3. do you have assurance of your salvation | ||
| Lori |
Hi, Ken, I'm glad you asked!! What does Revelation 14:12 really mean? Let's take the text apart and find out, because it's something that we really need to know! But first we need to be in the proper Spirit.take a moment and name your sins to God before we go any further, it's important that the Holy Spirit has control of minds. If you neglect this part of any Bible study you can easily be deceived. (If I were talking with you in person, there would be a minute or so of silence for both of us to do this, right now.) OK. Rev. 14:12 says, "This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus." The first thing we need to find out is what "This" is referring to. The chapter is about the Great Tribulation-the Anti-Christ is in authority on the earth, in Chapter 13 the beast was fatally wounded and is healed, he performs miracles and many are deceived, an image is made in his honor and he forced all to receive his mark. Chapter 14 begins with those who serve the living God, who have God's name written on their foreheads. An angel proclaims, can you imagine being here and hearing the loud voice of an angel "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water." And, the second, and the third.Obviously this is an audible communication from heaven to earth announcing the future of those who serve the beast and his image. can you imagine what it will be like to be one of those who have God's name written on their foreheads?? These people will have to patiently endure the savagery of the beast. The way they will patiently endure is to obey God by refusing to worship a man or an idol. But let's explore God's commandments a little further.what exactly are God's commandments? Turn to 1 John 3 verse 21 "Dear Friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him." Flip back to Rev. 14:12, is says "..the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus" 1 John 3:21,22 says, " we have confidence before God,...., because we obey his commands." These are very similar; don't you agree? They are both speaking about obeying God's commands and the benefits that are ours because we do. (Rev. 14:13 states the benefit of: "they will rest from their labors.") But this still hasn't answered the question of: What are God's commandments?? Let's continue in 1 John 3:23, "And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us." This is God's command. "This is his (God's) command: to believe in the name of his (God's) Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us." So, let's take God's command and place it in Rev. 14:12, "This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments ("believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ and love one another.") and remain faithful to Jesus." Actually, in context, the verse answers your question. In context this verse is talking about those who worship, they either worship God or they worship the beast. You obey God's command by believing in Jesus Christ and loving those that persecute you. Take a look at John 15:10, "If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love" verse 12 "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you." Jesus is talking to his disciples just prior to his death. he has already promised them the Holy Spirit (the only way that we can possibly keep this impossible command) and he is telling them that they will have everything that he had they will have the same love to give to others as the love he has given them. Wow!! Ken, can you see how much BIGGER this command is than the 10! An unbeliever can keep the letter of the law infact, many unbelievers are more moral than a lot of believers. Why would the final test of the church age be the observance of a day? An unbeliever can observe the hours of the Sabbath by doing nothing. I know what your thinking. well, yes but you have to believe in Christ and then keep the Sabbath." "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life." John 3:36 "...that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16 "everyone that looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life." John 6:40 The scriptures would have told us, right in these verses, if the test of the Sabbath was required for salvation. It would have said "Whoever believes in the Son 'and keeps the Sabbath' has eternal life" "whosoever believes in him 'and observes my Sabbath' shall not perish but have eternal life." Everyone that looks to the Son and believes in him 'and keeps my Sabbath' shall have eternal life." But Ken, scriptures just doesn't say that the commands of God are believe in my Son and love one another but you know the only one required for our salvation is the first one, "Believe, Believe, Believe" The second command only makes us recognizable to others, as His. We aren't always in the Spirit..we don't always love. We get out the Spirits control and we hate and we despise and are vengeful and lots of other things. Ken, keep seeking the Spirit.....continue to name your sins before God so the Spirit can open your mind to God's word....He will show you the truth...He will free you from all the bondage that holds you. "For where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is FREEDOM." In Christ, Lori | ||
| Max |
Hi Ken, Indeed, I was wrong. The term "Ten Commandments" does indeed occur in the Old Testament, Exodus 34:28. Thanks for pointing that out, so I won't make the same mistake again. Have you found any other mistakes I've made? If so, I'd be pleased if you'd point them out. Yours, Max of the Cross | ||
| Jtree |
Max, The words "Ten Commandments" are used only three times in the whole Bible. They are used in Ex 34:28, Dt 4:13 and Dt 10:4: And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And He wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. 1 Ex 34:27,28 And He declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even the ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Dt 4:13 And He wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly..... Dt 10:4 | ||
| Max |
Brother Ken, Revelation 14:12 KJV: "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." This text is part of the Third Angel's message (Rev.14:9-12). And though it has long been part and parcel of SDA doctrine, the SDA position cannot possibly be correct. For it depends on an obviously false interpretation of the "beast out of the earth" of Revelation 13:11-18. The official SDA teachinig says this "beast, coming up out of the earth" is the United States of America, whereas the first beast (Revelation 13:1-10) coming up "out of the sea" is Europe. SDA reasoning: The "sea" represents a populated area, namely Europe. Therefore the first beast is the Holy Roman Empire or, more specifically, the Roman Catholic Church. The "earth" by contrast, say the Adventists, represents an "unpopulated" area, namely the north American continent, out of which arose the immigrant peoples who became the U.S. nation. Therefore, say orthodox SDA evangelists, the second beast is the United States, with its "two horns" representing "civil" and "religious" freedom, etc., etc., etc. -- all without scriptural justification. Two reasons why this SDA reasoning is mistaken: 1. There is absolutely zero scriptural authority or support for supposing that "sea" represents a populated area in contrast to "land" representing an unpopulated region. So the interpretation is unjustified, something known in logic as prima facie error -- "wrong on its face." 2. The interpretation of the north American continent as "unpopulated" is manifestly false. It WAS populated! "From sea to shining sea!" With Native Americans! And not only is this interpretation false, but it is racist as well! Early Adventist Bible students and evangelists thought that red Indians were in the same category as black Africans -- not human! That's the reason they could argue that blacks were an "amalgamation" between white humans and black beasts (apes), something that is genetically impossible. But it was a belief powerful enough to get into a big "knock 'em down 'n' drag 'em out" argument over whether or not they could be "saved." Same with Native Americans, whom they mistakenly called Indians. Since they weren't human, they could be considered savage vermin. And since they weren't human, the land was -- halilujah amen! -- UNpopulated. "Just wipe 'em out , my fellow white folks, and take their land in the name of God and Old Glory!" So present-day SDA evangelists are "stuck" with the racist absurdity that the second beast of Revelation 13 arose out of an "unpopulated land"! Therefore, the entire case for SDA eschatology is unsupported and unsupportable by Scripture. For example, the underlying scriptural support for the National (US) Sunday Law collapses, since it cannot be shown by the Bible and the Bible only that the second beast is the nation known as the USA! And if the National Sunday Law (NSL) doctrine collapses, then all the "persecution of SDAs" under that ill-supposed coming legislation (NSL) collapses with it! And therefore SDAs have nothing to anchor Revelation 14:12 to in time and place, not to mention no NSL against which to pit SDA "obedience to God's commandments" in that text. So you have a list of four horrendous challenges, Ken: 1. In Revelation 14 "God's commandments" are "Christ's commandments," given, for instance, in the sermon on Mt. Blessings. They are not the 613 commandments of the entire Old Testament, much less the 10 commandments of Exodus 20. 2. Nowhere in the New Testament is there a command to keep the Sabbath holy. There is (in Romans 14) permission. But permission only. There is no necessity. To the contrary, there is in that same chapter permission to observe as holy all days of the week and/or year alike (which is my personal practice). 3. Prophecy presents no U.S. National Sunday Law against which to pit the "patient endurace on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus" (NIV). 4. Since Ellen G. White is "stuck" with the existing SDA prophetic eschatology, you are "stuck" with her writings. Writings that are unscriptural and, in the case of the "unpopulated America" interpretation, absurd and racist as well. You are therefore left with founding your entire prophetic "last day events" scenario, at least as regards the Sabbath, on White and White alone, not on the Bible and the Bible alone. There are more to be added to that list. But I think I'll stop here to catch my breath. May God's light flood you soul, Ken, as you seek to reconcile the SDA position with Scripture. Max of the Cross | ||
| Patti |
Ken, May I ask you for a personal favor? I do not object to your questioning my motives in a single post, but every time someone logs on to the website they see this title: Patti will not or cannot answer this question on CARM, PLEASE help her. ...which was not even accurate as we discussed above. I would appreciate if you would think seriously about not making personal remarks about anyone in the titles of the threads. I don't think that is no more than common courtesy and good 'Netiquette. Peace, Patti | ||
| Patti |
BAD GRAMMAR!! Make that: I think that this is no more than common courtesy and good 'Netiquette. Sorry 'bout that! Patti |
