| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Hi Jtree, Good to "internet" with you again. Thanks for extracting the three OT texts containing the phrase "Ten Commandments." Observation: In two of these three texts, the "Ten Commandments" are called the "covenant." This brings to mind Hebrews 8:6-13 NIV: ^^ But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs [that of the Levitical priests] as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said: The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more. By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. ^^ Wow! Do you see what Hebrews is saying here? If "the Ten Commandments" are called "the covenant" in the Old Testament, then it is nothing less than "the Ten Commandments" that are called the "old covenant" in Hebrews! Therefore a few justifiable substitutions will help us see the powerful point of Hebrews 8: Hebrews 8:6. "The ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs [that of the Levitical priests] as His Commandments are superior to the Ten Commandments." Hebrews 8:7. "If there had been nothing wrong with the Ten Commandments, no place would have been sought for Jesus Christ's Commandments." Hebrews 8:8. "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will give Jesus Christ's Commandments to the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. They will not be like the Ten Commandments." Hebrews 8:9. "They did not remain faithful to my Ten Commandments." Hebrews 8:9-12. ""These are Jesus Christ's Commandments that I will give to the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." Hebrews 8:13. "By calling Jesus Christ's Commandments 'new,' he has made the Ten Commandments obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." What power! What authority! What freedom in Christ! Thanks so much, Jtree! Max of the Cross | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti and Ken, On the other hand, look at it this way, when people see: "Patti will not or cannot answer this question on CARM, PLEASE help her." Human nature will tend to gravitate to the LOW and that was "LOOOWGHH!" Soooooooo, when people's natural sinful nature see that "thread heading" and investigate it hoping to find juicy gossip, they will get a dose of the GOSPEL!:):):);) That thread generated some really great replies too! Especially, that whooooper that Chyna put out! Soooo, cheer up and take Ken's Booo Booo as another one of God's ways to get His message out to some of the haplessly deceived folk out there:-)) I agree though, Ken needs to be a bit more accuate in his accusations!! ;-)).........Maryann | ||
| Ken |
Hi Max: Which version of the Bible are you posting here? Max's Bible: Hebrews 8:6. "The ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs [that of the Levitical priests] as His Commandments are superior to the Ten Commandments." KJV: Heb. 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Max's Bible Hebrews 8:7. "If there had been nothing wrong with the Ten Commandments, no place would have been sought for Jesus Christ's Commandments." KJV: Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. Max's Bible: Hebrews 8:8. "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will give Jesus Christ's Commandments to the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. They will not be like the Ten Commandments." KJV: Heb. 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Max's Bible: Hebrews 8:9. "They did not remain faithful to my Ten Commandments." KJV: Heb. 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. Max's Bible: Hebrews 8:9-12. ""These are Jesus Christ's Commandments that I will give to the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." KJV: Heb. 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. Heb. 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: Heb. 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. Heb. 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Max's Bible: Hebrews 8:13. "By calling Jesus Christ's Commandments 'new,' he has made the Ten Commandments obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." KJV: Heb. 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. All you would of had to do is read Hebrew 9:1 to receive the clear picture. Heb. 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. Can you show me where in God's Ten Commandments it talks about these first covenant ordinances? Ken | ||
| Jtree |
Ken, keep reading Heb 9:1-4, Heb 9:1 NET BIBLE 9:1 Now the first covenant in fact, had regulations for worship and its earthly sanctuary. 9:2 For a tent was prepared, the outer one, which contained the lampstand, the table, and the presentation of the loaves; this is called the holy place. 9:3 And after the second curtain there was a tent called the holy of holies. 9:4 It contained the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered entirely with gold. In this ark were the golden urn containing the manna, Aaronís rod that budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. Ken, What was the stone tablets of the old covenant? What was written on these stone tablets? These things listed in Hebrews 9:1-4 are said to be the Old covenant, and Hebrews 8:13 says ALL OF THESE THINGS are obsolete, and what is obsolete will disapear, and that includes the items mentioned in Hebrews 9:4, for that is the explanation of what the old covenant was. | ||
| Jtree |
Dear Ken, Max said>Therefore a few justifiable substitutions will help us see the powerful point of Hebrews 8: Max used justifiable substitutioning to make a valid point. And since we are talking the table of stone here, I will throw in my cents. Max GREAT TO SEE you also my friend in Christ, missed you. The significance of the words "Ten Commandments" occurring for the first time in Scripture at Sinai will be made clear as we proceed with this. For now, we can say that the first time in Scripture we are introduced to the words "Ten commandments," we are told the following things: 1.The Ten Commandments were written on Tablets of Stone by God Himself. 2.This event occurred at Mt Sinai when God entered a special and unique covenant relationship with the nation of Israel. 3.The Ten Commandments were the specific terms, or "words of the covenant" that were written on the Tables of Stone at My Sinai: "He wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments." 4.The Ten Commandments, or covenant, was made only with the nation of Israel: "I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel." These four things are always associated with the words "Ten Commandments" when those words, or their synonyms, are used in the Bible. The Ten Commandments equals the "words of the covenant," and this covenant is always associated with the Tables of Stone given to Israel at Sinai. This is the uniform and consistent teaching of the Word of God. Neither the Old Testament Scriptures nor the New Testament Scriptures will ever change what is said about the Ten Commandments in this text. The nature and function of the Ten Commandments will always be consistent with the first mention of them in the Bible. It is essential that we remember these Biblical four facts as set forth in the verse that first introduces us to the words "Ten Commandments." We should tattoo on our brain that "Israel," "Ten Commandments," "Mt Sinai," "Tablets of Stone" and "words of the covenant," are phrases that always go together in the Word of God. Any discussion of the Ten Commandments that in any way separates them from the "words of the covenant" written on the Tables of Stone and given to Israel at Sinai is not following Scripture. All we need to do is to read this verse and to listen to what is being said and we will be well on our way to understanding the nature and function of the Ten Commandments in the history of redemption. How common is the use of the words "Ten Commandments" in the Bible? The words "Ten Commandments" are used only three times in the whole Bible. They are used in Ex 34:28, Dt 4:13 and Dt 10:4: (already quoted) These texts repeat the same facts given in Ex 34:28. Dt 4:13 is even more emphatic than Ex 34 concerning the nature of the Ten Commandments. The verse starts with God "declaring His covenant" and then specifically emphasizes, by using the word "even," that the covenant made with Israel was the Ten Commandments. The NT Scriptures never once use the words "Ten Commandments," nor do any of the OT prophets use these words in any of their teaching, rebukes, or exhortations. The writers of the Psalms have much to say about "law" and "commandments" but none of them, including the author of Psalm 119, ever use the words "the Ten Commandments." As can be seen, the only references in the whole Bible to the "Ten Commandments" as a unit, or a specific document, are the three verses connected with Israel at Mt Sinai when the Ten Commandments were written with the finger of God on the Tablets of Stone and given to Israel as the terms of a covenant. It is essential that the words "The Ten Commandments" always be thought of as a single unit or document. The individual commandments continue in force, as individual and specific commandments, long after the Tables of Stone end as a covenant. I will say more about this fact later. Are there other terms used in the Bible that are synonymous and interchangeable with the words "Ten Commandments?" There are at least seven other words or phrases that are used to refer to the Ten Commandments, or "words of the covenant". I will list them one at a time and give a sample of the references. The first reference for each phrase will usually be the first reference in Scripture where the phrase is found. The same will be true of the last reference for each phrase. It will greatly help us to understand the nature, purpose and function of the Ten Commandments if we realize that we can substitute any of the following terms in place of the words "Ten Commandments." All seven phrases mean exactly the same thing when used in the Bible. 1. The Tables of Stone: This is the most common way that the Bible refers to the Ten Commandments. This usually surprises people who have never carefully looked at how the Holy Spirit refers to the words written with God's finger at Sinai. Let us look at some specific texts of Scripture: And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them. Ex 24:12 And He declared unto you his covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone. Dt 4:13 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly. Dt 9:10 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt. I Kings 8:9 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. II Cor 3:3 Again, we should note that every reference in the Bible to "the Tables of Stone," like the synonymous words "the Ten Commandments," is connected to Mt Sinai when the commandments were written on the Tables of Stone and given to Israel as a covenant. This is the uniform meaning that the Holy Spirit gives to the Ten Commandments when they are spoken of as a unit regardless of which particular term is used. The "Ten Commandments" and the "Tables of Stone" are one and the same thing. From now on I will follow the practice of the writers of Scripture and freely interchange the words "Tables of Stone," or any of the other synonyms, when referring to the words "Ten Commandments." 2. The Tables of Testimony: This term is only used twice and is found both times in the Book of Exodus. Again, both references refer to Sinai when the "Tables of Testimony" (Ten Commandments) were given as a written record of the covenant conditions that would be used as the legal "testimony" against Israel if they broke the covenant. We do not ever remember this Biblical term being applied to the Ten Commandments by any preacher or writer. Such an omission is most unfortunate. Here are the two textual references: And He gave unto Moses, when He had made an end of communing with Him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God. Ex 31:18 When Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tablets of Testimony in his hand, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the Lord. Ex 34:29 The term "Tables of Testimony," like the preceding two terms, is always connected with God's dealing with the nation of Israel at Mt Sinai when He entered into the special covenant relationship with them. The "Ten Commandments," the "Tables of Stone," and the "Tables of Testimony" are one and the same thing in the Scriptures. 3. The Testimony: The word "Testimony" is used in two verses to describe the Ten Commandments. The first instance is when God gave Moses instructions concerning building the Ark of the Covenant to house the "Testimony," or the Ten Commandments. The other time is when the Ark was finished and the Ten Commandments were put into the Ark. Here are the texts: The spokes are to remain in the rings of this ark; they are not to be removed. Then put in the ark the Testimony, which I will give you. Ex 25:15,16. He took the Testimony and placed it in the ark .......... Ex 40:20 It is significant that the word "Testimony" is singular even though there were "Ten" commandments written on the tablets. It confirms that the Ten Commandments are considered to be one single document, and the document is the covenant, or "Testimony," between God and Israel. We could read the above verses and substitute either the word "Covenant" or the words "Ten Commandments" for "Testimony" since they all mean exactly the same thing. 4. The First Covenant: The fourth term which used as a synonym of the "Ten Commandments" is the words "First Covenant." This phrase is used in the Bible only twice but it is implied in other places where the New Covenant is contrasted to the Old, or first, Covenant that it replaced. The covenant described in the words "the covenant I made with their fathers" in passages like Jer 31:33 and Heb 8 through 10 is clearly the "first" covenant, or Ten Commandments, that was given at Sinai on the tables of stone. Here are the texts: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second [covenant]. Heb 8:7 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. Heb 9:1 Again, as in all of the other instances, the references connect the "First Covenant" with the giving of the Ten Commandments on the Tables of Stone to the nation of Israel at Mt Sinai as a covenant. The "Ten Commandments," the "Tables of Stone," the "Tables of Testimony" and the "First Covenant" are one and the same in the Scriptures. 5. The Old Covenant: The fifth term used to refer to the Ten Commandments written on stone is "the Old Covenant." The term is clearly implied in Heb 8:6 where three distinct contrasts are made. There is a contrast between the following things: 1. the ministries of Aaron and Christ; 2. the two covenants upon which the two ministries are based; and 3. the superiority of the "better promises" upon which the New Covenant is established. The Old Covenant said "do and live/disobey and die" but the New says "it is finished/believe." Notice how these three comparisons are set forth in the argument developed by the writer of Hebrews: But the [1] ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as [2] the covenant of which he is mediator is to the old [covenant] one, and it is founded on [3] better promises. For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would been sought for another [covenant]. Heb 8:6,7 NIV It is the obvious result of these comparisons that demonstrates why the Old Covenant written on the Tablets of Stone had to be replaced by the "new and better" covenant. The same truth is found in Heb 8:13: In that He saith, a new covenant, He hath made the first [covenant] old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Heb 8:13 The NIV correctly translates the Greek with "covenant" in II Cor 3:14 instead of "testament" as in the KJV: But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. II Cor 3:14 As in all of the previous instances, the term "Old Covenant" is always a reference to the Ten Commandments written on the Tablets of Stone and given to Israel at Sinai as a covenant. If II Cor 3:14 is referring to the Old Testament Scriptures, it is the exception. However, the context is comparing two different ministries based on two different kinds of covenants. It is not comparing two different kinds of Scriptures. The "Ten Commandments," the "Tables of Stone," the "Tables of Testimony," the "First Covenant," and the "Old Covenant" are one and the same thing in the Scriptures. Some theologians do not understand that the "Old Covenant" refers to the covenant that God made with Israel at Mt Sinai. They thus deny that Christ replaced the Old Covenant with a "new and better" covenant. They insist on trying to push the Old Covenant back into the garden of Eden. 6. The Words of the Covenant: The sixth synonym used by the Holy Spirit for "the Ten Commandments" is the phrase "the words of the Covenant." These words establish beyond question that the Ten Commandments are the covenant document that established Israel as a nation, or body politic, at Mt Sinai. The Ten Commandments are expressly called "the words of the covenant." Notice this fact in the following text: And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. Ex 34:28 And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone. Dt 4:13 Again, as in the previous five cases, the text references the "words of the covenant" back to Mt Sinai when God gave the Ten Commandments to Israel as a covenant. This fact is inescapable in these texts. They explicitly state that the "words of the covenant" were the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments, the "Tables of Stone," the "Tables of Testimony," the "First Covenant," the "Old Covenant" and the "words of the covenant" are all one and the same in the Scriptures. They are all interchangeable terms. 7. The Tables of the Covenant. The seventh phrase that the Bible uses as a synonym for the Ten Commandments is the "Tables of the Covenant." Moses used this phrase at the second giving of the law in Deut. It is very obvious that Moses wanted to impress the word "covenant" on Israel's mind when he reminds them of God giving the Ten Commandments as the terms of the covenant written on the Tables of the Covenant. It is not possible to read the following instructions of Moses without seeing that the Tables of the Covenant are the exact same thing as the Ten Commandments: When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the LORD made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water: And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly. And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant. Deut 9:9-11 The subject of the message given by Moses on this occasion concerns God, at Sinai, giving the Tablets of the covenant upon which was written Ten Commandments. The NIV, in one instance adds the word "stone" to this phrase and the Ten Commandments are called the "stone tables of the covenant." This occurs in Hebrews: ..........which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. Heb 9:4 The ninth chapter of the Book of Hebrews contrasts the ministry of Aaron in the earthly Tabernacle in the midst of Israel with the ministry of Christ in the true Tabernacle in Heaven itself. The word "covenant" is again the recurring theme in this chapter. Verse 4 tells us that the stone Tables of the Covenant were kept in the Ark of the Covenant in the Most Holy Place behind the veil. We remember that not only the Ark but the whole Tabernacle was designed in reference to the Tables of the Covenant. All of the sacrifices and all of the ministry of the priests centered around the Ten Commandments in the Ark. The whole system illustrated the truth that there was no approach to God until the terms of the covenant in Ark had been met: The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. Heb 9:8,9 The inability of all of the ministries connected with the Old Covenant to "cleanse the conscience" is always, as in this verse, connected with "the way into the Most Holy Place" being closed off. The writer of Hebrews shows that the "once for all" sacrifice of Christ overcame this inability and forever opened up the way into the Most Holy Place. This truth is shown by contrasting the great effect of the better sacrifice of Christ with the sacrifice of animals. The key verse is 15. It tells us the specific reason for the need of the New Covenant to be established in nothing less than the shed blood of the Son of God Himself: For this reason [to effect what the Old Covenant could not] Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal [not just one year] inheritance--now that he has died [under the curse of the covenant in the Ark] as a ransom to set them free [Gal 4:4-6) from the sins committed under the first covenant. Heb 9:15 None of the sins against the Old Covenant were truly atoned for until the actual death of Christ on Calvary. It is the atoning work of Christ that gave Him the right to send the gift of the Holy Spirit. The coming of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost was the heart of the promise in the Old Testament Scriptures. However, that promise could not be fulfilled as long as the Tabernacle was still standing, and the Tabernacle must stand as long as the Old Covenant (Ten Commandments) in the Ark of the Covenant were in force as the covenant foundation of God's relationship to Israel. It all stands or falls together. As in the other six examples, we see again that the same ingredients always go together when the Ten Commandments or one of their synonyms are used. The "Ten Commandments," the "Tables of Stone," "the Tables of the Testimony", the "Testimony," The "First Covenant," the "Old Covenant," the "words of the covenant" and the "stone Tables of the Covenant" all mean exactly the same thing in the Bible. All eight of these terms are interchangeable. We doubt that anyone can look at the preceding verses and question what has been said. As we will see later, some people may have difficulty with applying this truth to theology. For instance, if a person says, "I believe the Ten Commandments are the rule of life for a Christian today," that person should realize that he is also saying, "I believe the stone Tablets of the Covenant kept in the Ark of the Covenant are the Christian's rule of life for today." Both statement mean exactly the same thing according to the Bible. The first time we listed on a chalk board the preceding seven terms that are synonymous with the words "the Ten Commandments," a man asked, "Why did you not list some of the verses in the Bible that speak of `the moral law' when referring to the Ten Commandments?" He was quite surprised when I replied, "No such references were listed simply because there are none!" The Bible does not even use the term "moral law" let alone equate such a term with the Ten Commandments. I may be jumping ahead a bit, but it might be well to mention the fact that the term "moral law" is a theological term developed in the Middle Ages and is not a Biblical term in any sense whatsoever. The term may, or may not, be a correct and useful term if it can be proven to be Scripturally correct. However, the term would first have to be established with texts of Scripture that clearly prove the doctrine implied or stated in the term. At this point we are only interested in what the Word of God itself says and not in non-Biblical terms developed by theologians as the essential means necessary to teach their particular system of theology. Our question is this: How does God Himself want us to think and speak about the words "the Ten Commandments?" The answer is simple if we follow the Holy Spirit's example in the Bible and use the terminology that He has inspired. We will always think "covenant." Perhaps it would be good to take all the above texts of Scripture that use the seven different terms as synonyms when referring to the Ten Commandments and summarize exactly what the Bible itself says about the Ten Commandments. The following statement is nothing but Bible texts put together into one definitive statement of the way the Bible treats the Tablets of Stone: God entered into a special and unique covenant relationship with the nation of Israel at Mt Sinai. The terms of that covenant are sometimes called the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments are also called The First Covenant, especially when that covenant is contrasted with the New Covenant that replaces it. The First, or Old Covenant was made only with the nation of Israel at Mt Sinai. The actual "words of the Covenant" are the Ten Commandments as they are written on Tables of Stone with the finger of God. This covenant document is also called the Old Covenant. It is also called the Tables of Testimony, or just the Testimony. The terms "Ten Commandments," "Tables of Stone," "Tables of Testimony," "Testimony," "Old Covenant," "First Covenant," "words of the covenant,"and "stone Tablets of the Covenant" are one and the same in the Scriptures. All eight terms mean exactly the same thing and they are all interchangeable with each other. If this statement causes either confusion in our thinking or problems with our theology, we are not thinking in Biblical terms when we think of the Ten Commandments. If the clear Biblical facts set forth in the verses of Scripture we have previously quoted, and just now summarized in the words of Scripture in the above statement, are totally new to us, then our thinking in reference to the Ten Commandments is not Biblical! We repeat, we must learn to use Biblical terminology. We should start our study of any Bible doctrine with a clear understanding of the actual verses of Scriptures that discuss that specific subject. Most people are amazed that the NT Scriptures never once use the words "Ten Commandments." It is obvious that these people, when they study the subject of the "Ten Commandments," never bother to look up the actual verses in the Bible where God Himself speaks about "the Ten Commandments." Perhaps if they would have done this just once then some of their conclusions, and surely their terminology, would be radically different. Summary The Bible always relates the Ten Commandments to Israel at Mt Sinai. The Ten Commandments were the "words of the covenant" that were written on the Tables of Stone and put in the Ark of the Covenant. The terms "Ten Commandments," "Tables of Stone," "Tables of Testimony," "First Covenant," "Old Covenant," ""Tables of the Covenant," and "words of the covenant" are all one and the same thing in the Scriptures. They are all interchangeable terms. We are never told or encouraged to think of "unchanging moral law" when we read the words "Ten Commandments" or any of the synonymous terms. We are to think "covenant." We are to think of a specific code of law (the Ten Commandments) that was made the specific terms of a covenant document. We are to always remember that the Ten Commandments were the specific terms, written on stone tablets, of the covenant that established Israel's special relationship with God. The Ten Commandments, Israel, Sinai, Covenant all go together. The individual duties commanded in the various commandments are a different story. The Ten Commandments, considered as a covenant document, have been replaced by the New Covenant. The individual commandments stand, fall, or are changed according to their own nature and merit. Nine of them are clearly repeated, with some changes, in the New Testament Scriptures and therefore just as binding today as when given at Sinai. Standing on the ROCK, and not the Stone Joshua | ||
| Max |
Ken: Thanks so much for demonstrating the exquisite agreement between the KJV and the MCV (Max of the Cross Version). May God forever bless you because of that! Jtree: That was the most powerful statement of covenant teaching I've ever read, more powerful even than Dale Ratzlaff's, which was exceedingly powerful for me. May God forever bless you too because of that! | ||
| Max |
Jtree: Now you have earned the title, Joshua of the Rock! | ||
| Jtree |
Is there a Problem Of "Two Versions" ? The second thing concerns me is the necessity of being sure that we know exactly what was written on the Tables of Stone. It is impossible to understand the theological significance of the Tables of the Covenant if we do not know exactly what is being commanded in the terms of the covenant. We must first know exactly what duty is being commanded before we start discussing its nature and purpose. Nothing but confusion and misunderstanding can result if we are not all talking about the same thing. What was written on the Tablets of Stone? Exactly what are the "Ten Commandments?" What was the exact content of the Old Covenant that was written with the finger of God on the Tables of the Covenant? One would think that such a question need not be asked and some may be surprised that we start with something so "simple." The very fact that no one starts here and just "asumes" that everyone knows the answer is indicative of the amount of ignorance there is about the Ten Commandments and the bad theologies that has been produced by that ignorance. First of all, it must be noted that the Bible gives two different "versions" of the Ten Commandments that were written on the Tables of Stone. And there are some very real differences in the two versions of the Ten Commandments as they are found in Exodus twenty and Deuteronomy five. The first through third and the sixth through ninth commandments are almost identical. The greatest differences are in the fourth and fifth. Since our concern at this point is only in the fact that there are two different versions of the Ten Commandments, we will only note the differences in the fourth commandment. It is very obvious there is a great difference in the fourth commandment as recorded in Ex 20:8-11 and the same commandment as recorded in Dt 5:12-15. Moses clearly gave two totally different reasons for why the Sabbath was to be kept holy. The first reason was to follow God's example in Genesis and the second was to remember the recent deliverance from Egypt. Very few writers even mention these differences in the two versions of the Ten Commandments, and most of them make no attempt to deal with the obvious problems created by the impossibility of having two different things written on the same Tables of Stone. We should think it is more than fair to say that any attempt to understand the true meaning and function of the Tablets of Stone in the history of redemption that does not begin by clearly establishing exactly what was written on those tablets is doomed to confusion and contradiction. How is it possible to know the true meaning and significance of commandments when we do not know for sure what a given commandment actually says? Likewise, I feel justified in thinking that a person's understanding of the significance of the Ten Commandments is rather shallow if that person never even noticed that the Bible gives two different versions of those commandments. What Is Involved in the Fact that there are "Two Different Versions" of the Ten Commandments in the Bible? One: The Verbal Inspiration of the Scripture. We are not talking about two versions of a parable or miracle. We are dealing with very special and unique commandments of great significance that were written in stone by the finger of God. Nothing could be more exact and specific than that. It is not possible that God wrote on the Tablets of Stone everything found in the both the Exodus 20 version and the Deut 5 version of the Ten Commandments. Something is obviously wrong and an awful lot is at stake until the problem is solved. The solution might be a bit easier if two different writers had given the two different versions. However, in this case Moses is the author of both Ex 20 and Dt 5. Believing that the Ten Commandments, as given in Exodus 20 and Dt 5, are the "eternal unchanging moral law of God" only adds to the problem. Can anyone believe that God intended the Tablets of Stone to be what some preachers insist, with no Biblical proof, on calling "the unchanging moral law," and also believe that God would inspire Moses to give two different versions of His "unchanging moral law?" This fact alone ought to alert any serious mind to stop and think. One thing is certain, the two different versions of the Ten Commandments must be reconciled to each other before it is possible to know for sure what was actually written on the Tablets of Stone! We have people arguing vehemently about "unchanging laws" without even knowing what those laws actually say. There are basically only three possible approaches to the problem of the two different versions of the Ten Commandments: 1.The Bible contradicts itself. Every Christian will reject this explanation. 2.Moses, in Deut 5, "forgot" what God actually wrote on the Tablets of Stone in Ex 20 and therefore left out the part about creation. Moses also "added," in Deut 5, the part about deliverance from Egypt even though it was not actually part of the original Ten Commandments given in Ex 20. It is obvious we must also reject this explanation. It is a "rational" version of the first approach. 3.All that was actually written on the Tablets of Stone was the bare commandments. In the case of the fourth commandment, all that was written on the tables was the words "Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy." All of the rest of the words relating to the actual observance of the Sabbath, in both Ex 20 and Deut 5, are commentary added by Moses and not part of the commandment itself as written on the Tablets of Stone. The last solution is obviously the only position consistent with verbal inspiration even though it might create some problems for some theologians. It would be most appropriate for Moses, standing at Mt Sinai, to point Israel back to the God of Creation as a ground for obeying the newly given covenant sign, or Sabbath commandment. As we shall see, the seventh day Sabbath was the specific "sign" of the Mosaic covenant that established the nation of Israel as a body politic at Mt Sinai. It would also be just as appropriate for Moses to remind Israel (at the second giving of the law in Dt 5) of God's redemptive rights over Israel because of the recent deliverance by blood and power from Egypt. The two reasons together combine the creatorial rights and redemptive claims of God over His chosen nation and furnish a double obligation for obeying the covenant sign and the whole covenant. However, it is obvious that neither of the two different reasons given by Moses for keeping the seventh day holy were part of the actual commandments, or covenant,that was written on the Tablets of Stone. Both reasons are commentary added by Moses to enforce the great significance of the covenant sign (Sabbath) that had just been given to Israel. Two: As it regards the Sabbath Commandment. It is impossible to use Ex 20:11 to prove that the seventh day Sabbath was a so-called "Creation Ordinance." You must "add" that to the version given in Deut 5 before you can make it part of the actual commandment. However, Deut 5:22 forbids any such additions. 1.God spake "these words" (Deut 5:22) refers to the words just spoken in Deut 5:1-21. 2.There is no mention at all of Creation in Deut 5 just as there is no mention of deliverance from Egypt in Ex 20. 3.Moses is emphatic that God "added no more" to the words just written in Deut 5:1-21. Three: Our Theological view of "Moral Law." As mentioned earlier, I must ask this question: "If God intended the Tables of Stone to be a revelation of His `one unchanging moral law,' would He have given us two different versions of what He had written?" We may think this is self contradictory. We need a whole new mind set that thinks and speaks in Biblical terms instead of theological terms. We need to say, "Give me a clear text of Scripture" instead of accepting theological terms as equal to Scripture verses. We must quit referring to the Ten Commandments as the "unchanging moral law of God" and begin to think and speak of them the same way the Bible does. We must call them, as the writers of Scripture do, the "Tables of the Covenant" or one of the other synonyms. When ever we hear the words "the Ten Commandments" our first thought should automatically be "the words of the Old Covenant written on the Tables of Stone at Mt Sinai." Until we do this, we are failing to think and speak in Biblical terms. I am not suggesting that there are no "moral laws" written on the Tablets of Stone. The Ten Commandments contain much, actually mostly, moral law that is just as binding on a Christian today as it was on Moses. However, that is totally different than saying "the Ten Commandments, as written on the Tablets of Stone, are "THE eternal unchanging moral law." We simply must fix in our minds that the Bible always treats the "Ten Commandments" as a single unit, or codified list that constitutes a covenant document. And that document is the Decalogue, or "Ten Words." When that covenant ended, everything it represented was also ended. However, the specific moral duties commanded in the individual commandments written on those tables are another thing altogether. Nine of the ten individual commandments are clearly repeated by both our Lord in the Gospels and by the Apostles in the Epistles. Everything that God commands is "moral law" to the individual commanded. To pick up sticks on the Sabbath was one of the most immoral things that a man could do under the Old Covenant. This was not because there is anything inherently wrong with picking up sticks. The man was stoned to death because the Fourth Commandment, which was the covenant sign, specifically forbid any physical labor on the seventh day. A commandment that was ceremonial in nature became the highest moral duty possible when God made it the sign of the covenant. It was not immoral for a man to take a second wife under the same Old Covenant that had the man stoned to death for gathering sticks. The same "Book of The Covenant" that commanded "keep the Sabbath holy" also commanded a man to sleep with both wives when he took the second wife (Ex 21:10). The exact opposite is true of the above two examples under the New Covenant. The ceremonial sign, or Sabbath, of the Old Covenant ceased when the covenant, of which it was a sign, was done away in Christ. The Seventh Commandment was changed by Christ, the new Lawgiver, and polygamy is now considered adultery. Polygamy was not a sin against the so called "moral law of God" according to the covenant under which David lived, but it is a sin according to the New Covenant under which a Christian lives today. The Bible defines moral duty according to the laws of the specific covenant under which an individual lives and never by an imaginary code of "unchanging moral law." Summary. The fact that there are two different versions of the Ten Commandments in the Bible presents some problems. There was a lot less written on the Tables of Stone than most people realize. The Ex 20 version and the Dt 5 version gives two different versions of the Sabbath Commandment. It seems improvable to us that God meant us to think of the Ten Commandments as His "unchanging moral law" when we are not positively sure what those commandments actually say. Still standing on the ROCK, and not the stone! Joshua | ||
| Ken |
Hi Joshua: I just finished reading your two versions post...very thought provoking. I hope I can get back with you a little later on this topic. Thanks again for the time you spent on the study. Ken | ||
| Jtree |
The Ten Commandments Are A "Covenant" The Scriptures clearly and consistently call the Ten Commandments a "covenant" and treat them as a distinct and separate covenant. We have already seen this spelled out clearly in several texts of Scripture. However, despite the abundant textual evidence of this fact in the Scriptures, some theologians still cannot admit that the Ten Commandments form a separate and distinct covenant. Their basic presupposition that there is only "one covenant with two administrations" make it impossible for them to think or speak of the Ten Commandments as a distinct and separate covenant. To do so would destroy the very foundation of their system of theology. In that system, the "Mosaic arrangement" or "Mosaic administration" could not possibly be a separate covenant, especially a legal covenant. The "Mosaic transaction" has to be an "administration of the one covenant of grace." However, the Word of God is quite clear that the Ten Commandments were the specific terms of a distinct and separate covenant. Here are several verses that clearly establish this point: So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. Deut. 4:13 When I went up into the mountains to receive the tablets of stone, even the tablets of the covenant which the Lord had made with you...and the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone written with the finger of God...the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone, even the tablets of the covenant. Deut. 9:9-11 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant- -the Ten Commandments. Ex 34:27,28. How can anyone read the above verses and be honest with the words used and then deny that the Ten Commandments were the very "words" of a distinct and specific covenant? A system of theology built on non-biblical terms that refuses to use Biblical terms should be suspect. When a person uses terms that are both peculiar and essential to his particular system of theology we should be suspect of both the man and his system. It is impossible to even begin to understand the place and function of the Ten Commandments in redemptive history until we begin where God's Word itself begins. We must start by using the terminology that the Holy Spirit has been pleased to use. When we do this, we will automatically think and speak of the Ten Commandments as first and foremost being a distinct covenant. If our theological system forbids that, or even makes it unnatural or difficult, then it should be obvious that our system is not Biblical at that point. The emphasis in the Word of God is always on the fact that the Tablets of Stone contain the terms of a covenant. Remember that the Bible treats the "Ten Commandments," the "Tablets of the Covenant," the "Old Covenant" and the "words of the covenant" as equivalent and interchangeable terms. It is clear from all of the Biblical texts quoted in chapter one that God wants us to think "covenant" when there is a reference to either the words "Ten Commandments" or any of the seven synonymous terms used to describe them. It is simply impossible to think Biblically of the Ten Commandments apart from thinking of them as the "words of the covenant" written on the Tablets of Stone. Nowhere in the Bible are we instructed to think in terms of "the unchanging moral law." Go back over the Biblical texts that refer to the Ten Commandments and see how clearly this truth is set forth in every single text. It is just as striking when the Tablets were smashed and the second set was made. It is not possible for the Bible to say any more clearly that the Ten Commandments are the exact words, or terms, of the Old Covenant than it does in the following verses: When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them in pieces... Ex 32:18 The Lord said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets which you broke...." Then the Lord said, "I am making a COVENANT with you....." Then the Lord said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with them I have made a COVENANT with you and with Israel.....And he wrote on the tablets the words of the COVENANT--the TEN COMMANDMENTS. Ex 34:1,27,28 Summary If our system of theology did not teach us to think about the Ten Commandments as a distinct and separate covenant then it did not teach us to think Scripturally. If we were taught to think of the Tablets of Stone as the "unchanging moral law of God," then we were taught wrong. Unfortunately, we were also taught, by default, to ignore the words and terms used by the Holy Spirit Himself. We may have done it unconsciously, but we nonetheless substituted erroneous theological terms in the place of Biblical terminology. Or even worse, if we were taught that the Ten Commandments simply could not be a separate distinct covenant but only a different administration of the so called Covenant of Grace, then we were taught to actually contradict the Word of God. The Holy Spirit always relates the Ten Commandments, when considered as a unit, with the "words of the covenant" that were written on the Tablets of Stone at Mt Sinai. Still standing on the Rock, and not the stone | ||
| Billthompson |
Ken, I am certainly not hear to be your judge. I can decide for myself whether I choose to engage in a withdrawn debate with you, however. I have learned the hard way that endless, pointless debates about the sabbath, law or 10 commandments with people who do not know the basics of the God's plan of salvation is a misappropriation of one's attention. The basics of God's plan of salvation must be there before all these nonsalvation issues are discussed. Your attempt at answering my 3 questions with a one sentence answer fell far short of what I expect before I discuss peripheral issues with someone. Notably, you said nothing about Jesus Christ, the cross, the significance of His death and resurrection. There was no mention of the significance of His blood being shed and whether it covered just your past sins (before conversion) or ALL your sins. You also showed no sign of having any assurance of your own salvation. If you are not sure you are saved, how do you hope to convince me or anyone else that you are saved or that they can be saved by the same method you were? Whether you convince me you are saved is unimportant, I do pray you can reach some assurance of salvation in your own heart and mind, however. A Christian should be an exclamation point, not a question mark, 1 John 5:13. A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Bill Thompson: I feel the same way you expressed in the post above. That's why I posted a response to the "general readership" of this forum, rather than to one individual. It is under the theme WHO FULFILLED THE TEN COMMANDMENTS - WHAT IS YOUR FOUNDATION. I guess, as you said, it is pointless to try to discuss with these friends since even their logic is faulty! With Christian humility, I'd suggest SDA's to answer to themselves: WHAT IS MY FOUNDATION? A Sinner saved the same way Bill Thompson was! GRACE AMBASSADOR | ||
| Max |
Yo Ken! You haven't posted for a week! Where are you? Please come back. All is forgiven. Things just aren't the same around here without you. | ||
| Jtree |
What are the Commandments of God? Avvy's teach that the "commandments of God" in teach that the "commandments of God" in Rev 12:17 and Revelation 14:12 are speaking about the Ten Commandments. If you look at the Greek word for "commandments" it is the word "entolas" which means teachings, instructions or commands. This word is used always in John's writings when He is referring to the instructions of teachings of Christ. When John refers to the Ten Commandments in his writings he uses a different Greek word, "nomas". John also defines for us what the "commandments" of God are. Please look carefully at the following passages: I John 5:2-3 - "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments (entolas). For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments (entolas); and His commandments (entolae) are not burdensome." We aren't left to guess what the "commandments" are. The context of the Epistle tells us. Simply look at I John 3:22-24: "and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments (entolas) and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. This is His commandment (entolae), that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded (entolaen) us. The one who keeps His commandments (entolas) abides in Him,..." It's quite clear that the "commandments" of God are two: 1). Believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ 2). Love one another | ||
| Max |
Good morning, Joshua. Excellent Greek word study! Notice that Today's English Version (1995) translates Rev. 12:17 and 14:12 exactly in accordance with your Greek word study. Revelation 12:17b. "They are the people who obey God and are faithful to what Jesus did and taught." Revelation 14:12. "God's people must learn to endure. They must also obey his commands [believe and love] and have faith in Jesus." When we let the Holy Spirit teach, Joshua, we REALLY learn! | ||
| Max |
Ken, old buddy, what do you have to say to Joshua's study? | ||
| Max |
Ken, remember, it was YOU who started this thread. I have challenged you to respond to Joshua's Greek word study. What's your response? | ||
| Max |
Ken, wherever you are! Are you awake? Are you up? | ||
| Max |
Yoo-hoo! KEEEEEEEEEN! | ||
| Max |
Ken, are you okay? |
