| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
FROM MY STUDY OF SCRIPTURE I'M CONVINCED THEIR WINE WAS FIRMENTED. IF YOU AGREE WITH ME, READ ON: For a hundred and fifty years Adventists have argued very strongly that baptism must be by immersion, since John the Baptist dipped Jesus and the greek word baptizo means "to dip." So if your denomination's argument is, "Baptize it the way Jesus was," then how can you argue it is a sin to drink the way he did? Just wondering? Max of the Cross | ||
| Violet |
The "wine" issue is what got me started on questioning OFTA beliefs. I could not find any texts forbidding wine totally, and when I found one telling you it was OK to buy strong drink with your tithe money I really flipped. Two years ago at campmeeting I fould a little book on difficult texts in the Bible. I looked that one up. They had the nerve to say that a true Chrstian would not desire strong drink, therefor they would not buy it. I laughed out loud right in the middle of the ABC. I am still laughing today. I just wonder how stupid do they think people are? | ||
| Richardhardison |
When I attended the SDA prophecy seminar in Winter '98 and heard the statement that wine in the Bible was not alcoholic, I didn't laugh, but I did add them to my list of people i had to wonder about. Why would Paul say, "And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit" (Ephesians 5:18) if you couldn't get drunk on wine? In fairness, everytime the miracle of Christ turning water into wine comes up in Sunday School, you'll hear the argument of fermented vs. unfermented. If you want a fight in Fundamentalist and Pentecostal circles, this one is almost as much fun as singing "Sink The Bismarck" in a German Bar. Richard L. Hardison | ||
| Andrew_adams |
Hi, everyone, want to see another one? Check out Foot Washing in the Bible. (John 13:8 KJV) Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. 12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? 13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. These guys were fighting over who would be the best in heaven, jesus wanted to teach them a lesson. OK, now check this out; (1 Cor 11:26 KJV) For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. (Luke 22:19 KJV) And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. where is the DO THIS foot washing IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME? AA | ||
| Valm |
Andrew, There is not Biblical precedence for footwashing, however, it can be a powerful experience. I look at it as a tradition not a requirement. And if the tradition is helpful so be it. In liturgical churches (bear with me those who don't care for liturgical churches) foot washing is done once a year. This is on the Thursday before Good Friday and Easter. It is a sort of redramatization of the Last Supper. In the service the priest will wash the feet of any members in the congregation who wish to have them wash. In this dramatization, the priest obviously represents Jesus. I had it done one time. It was a powerful experience for me. First to break the barrier of having to do this in front of people who knew me. That in itself was an experience. I felt vulnerable and very unworthy of this ritual. It was just a really strange feeling. Second to visualize that Jesus was washing my feet! The whole meaning of the footwashing in that story came to life. Jesus washing my feet!!! Jesus serving me through his life, death, reurrection, atonement, and through his Holy Spirit now!!! I experienced both a humility and a connection to my Saviour that I had never felt before. I think at that point it did not matter that I ever wash someone else's feet. As an SDA I always thought it was an act of humility for ME to wash someone else's feet and that we were doing it to follow Jesus' example. Now I realize the true meaning is in Jesus' willingness to humble himself to us and for us in every way... and in our own unworthiness to receive such a wonder.. | ||
| Cindy |
Valerie, Hi! :-)) that was interesting about your foot-washing experience. I hadn't hear it done like that. I realize it can be a meaningful experence for many people. I must confess, though, that I am one who has always hated the foot-washing service. (Meaning in SDA churches). I enjoy communion... but, when they would split up for foot-washing, I would stay in the church sanctuary and converse with other friends who also felt uncomfortable with it! We would have some good conversations, and I came to realize that many were GUILT-RIDDEN by not going in for footwashing! As my confidence rose, I felt I could help somewhat to alleviate their guilt by discussing the whole thing in light of Grace, not the idea that they must show humility... Humility can be shown so many other ways! At least 15 years ago, I studied this whole issue in light of EGW's prounouncement that it was "an Ordinance ordained by God" and "a duty"! (Again, not having my EGW's books anymore, I don't have the reference). I disagreed with her interpretation, feeling it was a cultural at-that-time service that Jesus did specifically that night for His disciples to demonstrate the servanthood humility that He had... and also that His followers would eventually want to have. I do not think He set this down as a "duty" or "ordinance of humility" like the Adventist theology states... But the freedom to participate in this if it is meaningful to someone, I would support. I guess I've seen that it can be "percieved" by some as spiritual elitism...And, perhaps this can happen in other areas also... Again, our confidence and liberty remains only in Christ! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Valm |
Cindy, I couldn't agree more. The footwashing service in the SDA church somehow missed the point that Jesus was making. It is not our ordinance of humility it was his act of humility to us. Valerie | ||
| Violet |
Plus, by the time you were and Adventist for more than a week or two you found someone who you always served and it became no big deal. Just something to get through to be able to partake in the rest of communion. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Let us not forget that in the SDA Church version of foot washing, they separate the women to one room and the men to another. Where did that "tradition" come from?? Guess they were afraid that some guy washing our feet might get lustful or that some gal washing a man's feet would do the same thing. Silly, ignorant traditions of men! I hate the traditions of men over God. God Bless all, DtB | ||
| Violet |
Not in our church, we were all in the santuary in one room. So you could participate with you husband or child.....big deal! It is my understanding the reason they seperate was in the past when women wore stockings, they removed them and it would of been inmodest for a woman to do that in front of a man. I tend to agree with them on this subject, if you know how high you have to hike your dress to hook those stockings on that garter belt! | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Violet, You just made me laugh over here. Garter belts went out a lonnnnggg time ago. Still, in the SDA Church in this town I live in, the practice of separating is still held. God Bless you, DtB | ||
| Billtwisse |
Dear Max: In the following observation, I am not arguing with you. I don't know your position on this at all! My conviction, based on a lifetime study of the scriptures and the koine Greek (including a limited study of classical Greek passages), is that the equation of baptizo = dip is ridiculous. First of all, the NT would not use the word to refer to Holy Spirit baptism (the real and greater baptism) if the action of dipping was the sole meaning. Secondly, immersion is not by definition submersion. I don't think any scholar knowing the classical Greek would defend the notion that a thorough soaking of a body with a hose, waterfall, or bucket of water is something different than baptizo! Even in the classical Greek, much less the koine Greek. Yet Baptists reject Mennonites (their spiritual Anabaptist forefathers) from membership in their churches over such a legalism. Until the later 1600's, Baptists themselves viewed the 'immersion Baptists' as a sect on the lunatic fringe. The triple pouring commanded in the Didache was not an apostate perversion of the tradition of the apostles. Even though it is based on a wrong dogma of NT law to replace OT law (as is the sabbatarian observance of Sunday), it still maintained the practice of the early believers. Water baptism by liberal aspersion over the head was as much a continuance of apostolic practice as a gathering together on the Lord's Day was. On footwashing: Let's shine one another's shoes to a brilliance seen only in the military! This act would illustrate the same attitude of humility and service to others that Palestinian footwashing did. On alchoholic wine: The NT communion was celebrated only with alcoholic wine. Today, we have some liberty in this practice--since an unfermented 'fruit of the vine' is available any time of the year. In Christ 'fermented' or 'unfermented' means nothing--only faith working through love! That is, of course, unless believers attempt to forbid the use of alcoholic wine in the festival of agape. --Twisse | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Shortly after I was convicted to no longer call myself an SDA, my family and I attended an Agape feast at the SDA chuch. (My husband and kids are still SDA). It was quite pretty with tables in the shape of the cross and candles, etc. During the feast of peanut butter, fruit, bread and grape juice, I made the comment that if this were the real passover supper, we would most probably be eating lamb and drinking wine. The pastor's wife was sitting next to me and just looked at me for the longest time, it was like she couldn't comprehend it at all. I guess I upset her world a little. When you say to any SDA that Christ ate fish (at the very least cooked it for his disciples) they say...that "we don't know that for sure." They also think the same way about wine. Dr. Bacchiocchi has a book on this and I have heard him speak on it at out church. My husband never believed it was grape juice as they say. They had fewer ways to keep things from fermenting back then, and I think wine was santioned by God. One of the first things Noah did when he got out of the ark was plant a vineyard and make wine. (Genesis 9:20-21.) I darn sure would have made sure I had some on that stinky ark too! And isn't it significant that Jesus' first miracle was turing water into wine, and not only that but we all know that there is good wine (cheap) and very good wine (aged, expensive) and if you are having a wedding, you serve the good stuff first and then when no one cares, bring out the cheep stuff. The wedding coordinator at the wedding Jesus performed his miracle at was amazed and made the comment that they had saved the best for last, how unusual! Now tell me have you ever heard anyone talk about grape juice in that manner? The SDA have somehow managed in their minds to transform Christ into a Seventh-Day Adventist instead of a Jewish carpenter (Son of the Living God, our Redeemer, conquerer of sin and death, vanquisher of the devil, healer, law smasher, lover of sinners and lost souls, author of truth, deliverer, and our only hope, Jesus.) If they were to read the Bible for themselves without their SDA (puritanical) view of God and Jesus they might get a surprise. I love the verse about spending the tithe on something our heart desires such as meat, beer, etc. (Deut. 14:22) I bet they have never read that one! That doesn't fit the image of God we have been brainwashed into believing! | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
You are right, Pheeki. Jesus was Jesus, not an SDA! I remember not too long ago a devout SDA told my husband that Jesus ate fish because the health message hadn't been given yet. (Revelation is progressive, you know!) The Creator of the world, the Eternal God, didn't know the "truth of the health message". Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Yes, when the Bible speeks of wine, it means wine. When it sapeeks of new wine, it means just that-new wine. When it speeks of old wone, well, it means just that, too-old, gaed good quality wine. It is NOT referring to Boones Farm. Maybe a good chardenney or point nior or possibly my favorite, white zinfendel. At church for communion we have port. Now for all us poor folks out here in Internet land I will share one of my most favorite Bibical passages. You can read it for yourself in Proverbs 31:6-7(actually the entire chapter of Prov. 31 is awsome). "Give strong drink to one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress; let them drink to forget their poverty, and remember their misery no more". I drink my long island tea or my rum and coke and contimplate that text. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Colleen, yes, I too was told that the patrichacs of old and Christians past could have their meat and eat it too because the health message hadn't been revealed yet. But, I was told that God gave the health message at the right time when monderinazation was coming about from the indrustrial revolution and we have refridgeration now, as well as equiptment to make vegemeat and to preserve those things so meat is unnecesssary. God gave that revelation when the time was right for it to be needed. BTW, my SDA cousin insists EGW was right about meat because of mad cow disease. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
What's an Agape feas? | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Apparantly an SDA invention? It is a feast of vegetarian food that you have right before communion. Perhaps it is symbolic of the passover? I really am not sure. I remember one when I was in 8th grade (1980) and we had cheese and fruit but I hadn't been to one since that time with the exception of the one I mentioned before. Does anyone know? | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Where I attend services dring lent we have what's called, "Lentin Suppers". It' a vespers service with a simple meal of soup, salad, bread and water before the short vespers service. There is a long history attached with this ritual. But, that dosen't sound anything like the Agape Feast. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Agape, or love, feasts were fairly common among the early Christians. They were general meals for the purpose of fellowship. Jude mentions "love feasts in verse 12, and other references to fellowship meals occur in 1 Corinthians 11 and 2 Peter 2:13. It appears that these fellowship meals, which were quite common both among Jews and among Gentiles, were adopted by the early Christians also, but they added the Lord's Supper to the end of the meal. They were not, apparently, any particular kind of meal or served at any particular time or in a particular setting. They were simply meals at which the early Christians ate together and fellowshipped together, and they ended their common meals with the Lord's Supper. (Thanks to New Bible Dictionary, Inter-Varsity Press, p. 702) Adventists started having Agape Meals as alternatives to traditional communion sometime, I believe, in the 60s or 70s. I remember going to my first one when I was at Walla Walla College in the early 70s. I actually don't remember if that first one was a full supper or if it was just communion. I do remember attending some agape feasts when I taught at Gem State Academy during the late 70s. They served a light, fruit-based supper, then communion, which usually featured regular bread and glasses of grape juice instead of unleavened bread and communion cups of juice. I think agape feasts, at least among Adventists (I don't know if anyone else specifically does them), are an attempt to somehow make communion personal and relevant. In fact, when communion is celebrated at an agape feast, they usually don't do foot washing. Often the supper was followed with a time of testimonies. Interestingly, I don't remember any testimonies ever centering on Christ or his salvation or his care and grace. I do remember times when those testimonials were successions of people praising their friends and role models. That's not a bad thing to do, but it really substituted for knowing and praising Jesus. When a person doesn't love Jesus, it's hard to find communion (or taking the eucharist) to be meaningful at all without creating some sort of external atmosphere which can engage people. I'm so thankful for Jesus revealing himself and calling us to him! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
That's interesting. I apprently have been fortunate enough to miss out on this SDA ritual. However, the SDA potlucks after the Saturday morning service is a nice time for fellowship and good eating. When were you up at WW? I have a cousin who is a teacher there. I wonder if you know him. I will send you a personal e-mail with his name and a description, I'm just courious. | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
I just found out my brother in law is playing in a band (he plays guitar) at a former SDA church in the Los Angeles, Ca. area. Do any of you attend a church in this area who has a band playing? He is a tall fellow kind of fat but not really (has a gut) with blond hair and his name is Scott. Anyone know this church or him? I am hoping the church will rub off on him!!!! | ||
| Seekr777 (Seekr777) |
Dear Pheeki, (I'm new here and not sure if this is your real name or just for online use?) I attend a church in the Los Angeles area with a worship and praise band. However it is not a "former SDA church". I do know of a church not far from where I live in Claremont, CA which has recently left the denomination. It is located in the Covina/West Covina area. When I get home I'll try to remember to look up their Web site and send it to you. Richard | ||
| Wally (Wally) |
Colleen's comment above about agape feasts and testimonies reminded me of a very similar remark a friend mentioned to me after attending an agape feast several years ago at one of the local SDA churches. This particular dinner was around Easter time - in fact, I believe it was actually on Good Friday. Anyway, my friend said that the mood was very nice and the food was great, but the testimonies were very disappointing. Many people spoke up, but they talked about how much they liked attending that particular church or how happy they were that they had a job that allowed them to keep the Sabbath, etc. No one spoke at all about what Christ did for us on the cross, which supposedly was the point of the whole dinner. Telling that story also reminded me of testimonies I heard recently at an SDA service. The pastor made a point of having two long-time members talk in front of the congregation about what belonging to the church meant to them. Each of these "pillars of the congregation", as they were called, spoke about how much they enjoyed their friends at the church, the good fellowship, the nice events, and the good food. Nothing about how belonging to the church brought them closer to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior! I remember walking out of that service thinking that these guys could just as well join the local country club for what they expressed. |
