| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Lari, You wrote, ^^Are you suggesting that this is because the SDA church did not originally accept Christ as fully God, believing instead that He was the archangel Michael? And that his death did not atone for ALL our sins, only our past sins?^^ Yes, exactly so. The absence of the cross is at ground zero of the SDA heresy. You see, it is official Adventist dogma that the atonement was not complete at the cross. By displaying the cross you are asserting that it was complete. That's why true-gospel churches displayed the cross on the outside. That's why the Reformation did not dispense with such displays, even though many of them did dispense with the statues of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, etc. 3D art (sculpture) bad, you see, but 2D art (picture) good -- ugh, ugh. And so you see that for Adventists the cross is still an offense. So much so that they still don't display it in any size outside their church structures. Have YOU ever seen one on an SDA church steeple? I haven't. And Ken has demonstrated that he hasn't either. Max of the Cross | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, Whare did you find it? I have an average sized screen and didn't see it anywhere. You help me find the cross, please! Or was it that small? | ||
| Max |
Maryann, Go to http://www.adventist.org/. Look in the upper left hand corner of your screen. There you will see a photo of a modern, glass-faced office building with the words, "Adventist World Church Headquarters / Ray Dabrowski," written as a caption underneath. Above the picture are the worlds SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH. Just to the left of these words you will see a very small icon, smaller than a postage stamp. The icon has an open Bible very dark green in color. Above the open Bible are two somethings that I can't figure out: feathers? flags? swooshes? They are colored gold. The cross, if that's what in can be called, is in white and forms the crease in the middle of the Bible. It is microscopic and nearly impossible to decypher. You have to use your imagination. As art the icon leaves much to be desired. I liked the three angels icon MUCH better. That said, let's give the Adventists credit where credit is due: Maybe, just maybe, the cross IS creeping into Adventism. Now if Ken could only point out to us ONE SOLITARY EXAMPLE OF AN SDA CHURCH WITH A GIANT CROSS ON A STEEPLE OUTSIDE ... well now THAT would be more progress than a microscopic cross comouflaged inside the crease of a dark green Bible as part of an ugly smaller-than-a-postage-stamp of icon. Ken, are you reading? Cheers, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Ken? Found that SDA church with the BIG BOLD CROSS atop a tall tall steeple yet? I'm waaaaaaaiting! | ||
| Maryann |
Hey Max, I can remember the very first guy that witnessed to me at work in Las Vegas. Wooooow, that just brought a flood of memories....I just went to look in an old Bible of mine, (the first one I bought after leaving SDAism) that I ran across today and this persons phone number is still in it on a piece of envelope! I just can't remember his name:-(( Anyway, he had this baseball cap on that was solid black except for a very visible white cross on it. (Funny, we were working at a park called Angel Park in Las Vegas). After watching him for a few days, (critically!), I asked him if he was a Catholic! He said no, I'm a Christian that goes to this really neat Baptist Church. I asked him why he wore a hat with a cross on it and this is what he told me. This white cross on black tells eveyone that looks at me that Christ saved my black soul! I will never forget that! We were on that job together for a few weeks and we ate lunch under some small pine trees that I could still show you. He witnessed to me so graciously! He was soooo soft spoken and non-critical. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, I guess this week is my week for memories;-)) Anyway, he was my "FIRST" Christian. He, like so many others, had to go home and wash his ears out I'm sure. He told me about his life in a gang and a few of the things he did as one of the main enforcers. The people he hurt etc. He said that it was the cross of Jesus that saved him and changed his life and he was not ashamed to let the world know it. He had this really neat habit of pointing to the cross on his hat and smiling even if we were busy working. The reason I had his phone number was because he told me about his little daughter and how she loved a program called AWANA and I wanted more info for my kids. I called him months later and that got me started in a Baptist Church that was incredibly legalistic. (I've memtioned that Church a few times before) I left that Church after being asked to leave!!!!!! I really had tried to conform but the Spirit wasn't there. It really was the same old SDA way I knew and it just didn't work! After I was out of that Church, I went deeper into the lifestyle I was sorta wishing I was out of. It was a lifestyle of freedom that in reality was a life of more bondage then I ever knew existed. There isn't enough space on a BIG computer to list the stories between then and now, but, I can look you in the eye and tell you before God, that I am out of that "worldly" freedom that was really bondage and am living a life of freedom that I never knew could exist!!!;-)) So getting back to my first encounter with a Christian. There must be something to the story of NO crosses typically displayed in the SDA Church because the first thing I thought of this guy, was that he had to be a Catholic! That HAD to have come from my SDA raisin'! I am going to call the number in my Bible and see if this guy still is at that number and thank him for being a light in a dark world! (And ask him what his name is!) Wooow, this memory gave me a real rush of emotions. I had some thing else to say but it just evaporated from my little pin head;-)) Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
I feel like a Hey Jude, You know, I can tell the difference between a boy and girl mesquito but still can't find the SDA cross! Oh well, next time I'm around a big screen 'puter I'll take another stab at it. In your looking around on the site, did all those zillions of different sized blue dots in patterns make you think you drank to much grape juice? Maryann | ||
| Max |
Maryann, Was it about the microscopic SDA iconographic cross on http://www.adventist.org/? | ||
| Joni |
Maryann, Your stories are really something. You are blessed!! This is sort of different, not crosses on buildings but around necks. My daughter, when she was 10 received a beautiful cross necklace for her birthday by her aunt. This aunt knew we were church goers and thought it would be a nice gift. I was so dumb back then. I would not let her wear it. I told her that she could hang it on her mirror, and look at it because jewlery is wrong, yada, yada, yada, let alone a cross. The SDA church would kick us out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She is 27 now and along with most of the SDA children she grew up with, she does not attend church. She is lovely, and I continue to pray for her, but to think what I did in the name of "Religion". My heart still cries when I think of that. We have had many talks and I have apoligized to her for my being so dumb and believing a church that is so works, works, works............. We went to my neices wedding. It was in Berrien Springs and guess who the pastor was???? He would make a good actor. ...Anyway....after the ceremony the couple,after lighting the candles, exchanged their rings by themselves, and the pastor just stood there not looking at them. I thought it was neat that they exchanged rings, but it really made me think. Is a pastor not allowed to say "with this ring I thee wed"???? Logic escapes me. While at campmeeting years ago, when my children were younger, (so was I) I had a man following me around and hit on me. After that I wanted so bad to wear a ring. Anyway............off the subject but had to say it. Joni | ||
| Billthompson |
Max, Great thread! Whether the SDA church has no crosses displayed or many of them displayed is not nearly as important as the fact that they have traditionally taught that the sacrifice that Christ made there on that cross was not sufficient for our full atonement. The false gospel they teach which adds our works to what is needed to be saved makes a mockery of the sacrifice Christ made on that cross. So called "evangelical SDAs" could try to get crosses put up in all the churches but if they do not preach the true gospel regarding what happened at the cross in those churches, it makes no difference. This was indeed a good, thought provoking question Max. The SDA church I grew up in had the 3 angels on the sign out front but no crosses that I can recall. Again, though, with or without the decorative crosses, the absence of teaching regarding the significance of the cross is the real shame. Let's see, the sign out front has the 3 angels and when the community at large is encouraged to attend the beasts from Revelation are rolled out for all to see...hmmmm...where is the gospel? Where is Christ and what He did for us on the cross? I guess SDAs, Mormons, JWs, etc. are unwittingly displaying truth in advertising by failing to promenantly display the cross, after all it has little if any significance for these groups. An additional thought. How many of you have experienced the joy of celebrating the resurrection of our Lord from the grave in victory over sin and death (the holiday popularly known as "Easter" and condemned by SDAs as pagan). I wept and wept on my first celebration of resurrection Sunday. As the chior sang "He's Alive" with power and emotion, I kept saying over and over, "I am so sorry Lord for dispising this special celebration of your resurrection and for looking down my nose at those who celebrate this special day." A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, Keep coming up with those "God inspired" threads! It may take a while on this one or that one to get a "GOLD METAL" response like Bill's! Bill, That heartfelt response made my day!;-)) Maryann | ||
| Ken |
Hi All: Max! oh I'm just so glad that you started this very interesting thread. I'm sure the Lord puts great importance upon whether or not we Place a cross on a church, windows, a chain thats arround the neck etc. Why not just worship the Lord? ...then everything else will fall into place. Cheers Ken | ||
| Billthompson |
Maryann, Thanks for the "Gold Medal"! Do I need to take an Olympics style drug test to keep this award? ;) If soy bean products are found in my body fluids, I guess I have to give this thing up. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Ken, I understand that the Energizer Battery people are auditioning for a new commercial. I think that you would win as you just keep going and going and going and going and going. Max's thread IS awesome in that it is bringing to the surface a great heresy taught by some religions. Bill had an awesome testimony. Others seeing the truth of the "absence" of very visible crosses in the SDA church can say, "why?" Thank you Ken for creating so many "whys!" God IS working through you. Maryann | ||
| Ken |
Hi Ya Maryann: What exactly does the cross mean to You? What if Jesus would have been stoned? Would you then put rocks up on the church. If he would have been shot in front of a firing squad would you then put giant guns or bulletts on the roof? Jesus diden't die because of the cross he died because of our sins. Nuff said! Do your research about where the cross symbol came from o.k. Ken | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Bill, Naaaah, you don't need an Olympic style drug test! All you need is a CROSS verses PSEUDO CROSS test and that is: --What are you trusting in for salvation? --Did the blood of Jesus cover just your past sins or ALL your sins? --Do you have a firm assurance of salvation? As to the soy???? As long as it was not in the form of "pseudo flesh" I guess it is okay. You know, we need to stay away from as much pseudo stuff as possible. ;-))......Maryann | ||
| Max |
Bill, thanks for sharing the story of your first Easter celebration. I was riveted. | ||
| Max |
For my friend Ken, from my beloved King James Version: Matthew 10:38İAnd he that taketh not his CROSS, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. Mark 8:34İAnd when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his CROSS, and follow me. Mark 10:21İThen Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the CROSS, and follow me. Luke 9:23İAnd he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his CROSS daily, and follow me. Luke 14:27İAnd whosoever doth not bear his CROSS, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 1 Corinthians 1:17İFor Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the CROSS of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Corinthians 1:18İFor the preaching of the CROSS is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. Galatians 5:11İAnd I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the CROSS ceased. Galatians 6:12İAs many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the CROSS of Christ. Galatians 6:14İBut God forbid that I should glory, save in the CROSS of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. Ephesians 2:16İAnd that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the CROSS, having slain the enmity thereby: Philippians 2:8İAnd being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the CROSS. Philippians 3:18İFor many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the CROSS of Christ: Colossians 1:20İAnd, having made peace through the blood of his CROSS, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Colossians 2:14İBlotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his CROSS; Hebrews 12:2İLooking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the CROSS, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Max of the Cross | ||
| Terry |
Great response, Max. Ken, Scripture is filled with facts, mostly, and not with "what ifs"? The Cross was and is God's way...therefore we hold dear the Cross, not idolizing it, but cherishing the Place where our sins were blotted out, and hold dear to our hearts the perpetual symbol of the Place, whether it be in gold or wood or stone! I believe the "cross symbol" you seem to dislike, comes from the heart of God. The "research" is laid out, above, for all of us. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Ya Bro Ken, Ya know, I like you;-)) I've always wanted a little brother and I just elected you to fill that spot. My kids are two years apart and so are we;-)) Now, coulda, woulda, shoulda! Jesus wasn't stoned, shot or be-headed. He did die on a cross. No dispute! As to researching a symbol? What for? A cross for a symbol is just plain obvious to even Ray Charles. Since the facts are the plain so far as the instument Jesus died on, how is it considered idolatrous to display one? This was the question to start with! Why is it that the old timers quiver at the thought of having a cross displayed on their person or on their church? Why is it generally a no-no though out SDAadom to NOT display a cross? Soooo, there is a microscopic cross in the logo! Why isn't the the cross a focal point? If you wore 3 angels on your baseball hat, who would know what it ment? If you have a cross on your baseball hat, virtually everyone knows what that is! As you said: "Jesus didn't die because of the cross he died because of our sins. " Isn't that the most important event in the history of our world? Was it Jesus and 3 angels that had anything to do with your salvation or was Jesus on the cross that had anything to do with your salvation? As I think Max pointed out to you a few days ago, there are more of us here then you. Do you have a buddy or two you can invite to this discussion? Your new sister.........Maryann Ohhhhhhh, and Happy Sabbath:) | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Terry, I wouldn't go so far as to say that Ken "dislikes" the cross! He just hasn't grasp the importance of the cross. If he has grasp the importance, he still needs to find out why his church hasn't. Maryann |
