| Author | Message | ||
| Jtree |
Rename this thread, CROSS TALK, and let's get CROSS EYED. Now I'm RESTING (working massiver overtime)! Good night, God Bless. | ||
| Max |
Maryann, My question for you -- and anyone else -- this morning . . . . Why do Adventists at times display such hostility toward the cross? Is it all a part of the "deconstruction" of our God Jesus Christ and what he did for us and a "reconstruction" of ourselves what we can do for ourselves? And all with Christ's help, of course, of course . . . . By following his example, of couse, of course . . . . Our elder brother, of couse, of course . . . . Michael the archangel, of couse, of course . . . . Who has an evil twin named Lucifer, of couse, of course . . . . If Adventists keep going down this primrose path, where are they going to end up? Lucifer, the Son of God? Fear him? And keep his, Lucifer's, commandments? Don't even go there . . . not even in your mind. Max of the Cross | ||
| Ken |
Hi All: Here's a little something for all of us to enjoy. The history of the cross symbol in Christianity Early depictions on Jesus usually showed him as a shepherd carrying a lamb. Tertullian (140-230 CE), a Montanist heretic, commented in his essay De Corona: "At every forward step and movement, at every going in and out, when we put on our our clothes and shoes, when we bathe, when we sit at table, when we light the lamps, on couch, on seat, in all the ordinary actions of daily life, we trace upon the forehead the sign." This might be an early reference to individuals tracing the sign of the cross on their body. The use of the cross as a symbol was condemned by at least one church father of the 3rd century CE because of its Pagan origins. The first appearance of a cross in Christian art is on a Vatican sarcophagus from the mid-5th Century. It was a Greek cross with equal-length arms. Jesus' body was not shown. The first crucifixion scenes didn't appear in Christian art until the 7th century CE. The original cross symbol was in the form of a Tau Cross. It was so named because it looked like the letter "tau", or our letter "T". One author speculates that the Church may have copied the symbol from the Pagan Druids who made crosses in this form to represent the Thau (god). They joined two limbs from oak trees. The Tau cross became associated with St. Philip who was allegedly crucified on such a cross in Phrygia. May Day, a major Druidic seasonal day of celebration, became St. Philip's Day. Later in Christian history, the Tau Cross became the Roman Cross that we are familiar with today. The shape of the original crucifixion device is a matter for speculation. Sometimes, the Romans executed people on a Tau cross, sometimes on a Roman cross and sometimes on a simple stake. The gospels were originally written in Greek. They state that Jesus was crucified on a "stauros" (Mark 18:21, Matthew 27:32, Luke 23:26, John 19:17). This appears as the word "cross" in all but one of the English versions that we have examined. But in reality, the Greek word usually means a vertical pole without a crossbar. Hermann Fulda, author of "The Cross and Crucifixion" is commented that: the description of Jesus' suffering during the last hours of life indicates that he was crucified on a stake rather than a cross.that some of the writings of the early church fathers confirms the use of a pole. that the very earliest depictions of Jesus' crucifixion in Christian art show him on a stake. Acts 5:30 refers to "hanging him on a tree." 1 Peter 2:24 says "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree." Deuteronomy 21:23 stated that a person hung on a tree was be cursed by God. This verse was a major stumbling block that prevented many Jews from accepting Jesus as Messiah. The pre-Christian history of the cross symbol "From its simplicity of form, the cross has been used both as a religious symbol and as an ornament, from the dawn of man's civilization. Various objects, dating from periods long anterior to the Christian era, have been found, marked with crosses of different designs, in almost every part of the old world." The cross symbol was found in: Scandanavia: The Tau cross symbolized the hammer of the God Thor. Babylon: the cross with a crescent moon was the symbol of their moon deity. Assyria: the corners of the cross represented the four directions in which the sun shines. India: In Hinduism, the vertical shaft represents the higher, celestial states of being; the horizontal bar represents the lower, earthly states. Egypt: The ankh cross (a Tau cross topped by an inverted tear shape) is associated with Maat, their Goddess of Truth. It also represents the sexual union of Isis and Osiris. Europe: The use of a human effigy on a cross in the form of a scarecrow has been used from ancient times. In prehistoric times, a human would be sacrificed and hung on a cross. The sacrifice would later be chopped to pieces; his blood and pieces of flesh were widely distributed and buried to encourage the crop fertility. Wandering after Jesus Ken | ||
| Billthompson |
Ken has placed a great deal of faith in the idea that the SDA church is God's one and only remnant denomination. He is comforted by the fact that his name is recorded in their membership roles. He has assurance that that denomination is the "Noah's Ark" for the last days. Many Formers on this forum once held those same beliefs. What a pitiful substitute for what the Lord has given us now. We now have faith in Christ alone for our salvation, no human orginization. We are comforted by the fact that our names are now recorded in the Lamb's book of life. We have assurance of our salvation because of what Christ did on our behalf, not because of what we have done. We know that once we are His He will never cast us out. John 6:37 Ken, I pray you'll begin to take our comments seriously and prayerfully seek the Lord over the truth you have read here. May the Lord richly bless you as you continue to seek to serve Him. A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Max |
Ken, do you glory in the cross of Jesus? | ||
| Ken |
Bill: Thanks for trying to be a psychic Bill. Unfortunately once again your way off mark. I have never said and will never say any person is or is not saved. Only the Lord knows each individuals hearts. What I do not appreciate is someone who thinks they know every aspect of Gods word. If it is simple to interpret then why I ask are their hundreds of different religions? When was the last time you changed what you thought the Bible said? When was the last time you changed what the Bible says? Following Jesus Ken | ||
| Max |
Friend Ken, Why would you task a brother in Christ, Bill Thompson, just for taking Christ at his word and calling himself "a sinner saved by grace alone"? Is grace so repugnant a thing to you? Are you saved? Are you perfect? Are you holy? Are you sinless? I am! But such awesome qualities have nothing whatsoever to do with me or what I've done or am doing or will ever do in future, except for my faith alone. Max of the Cross | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Ken 'Ol Bro, You said: "I have never said and will never say any person is or is not saved." Just how weak is your faith in the plan of salvation that when a loved one dies you can't say: "Oh how I look forward to the day to meet them in heaven" The promises are just reeking out of the Bible that give each one of us security in our salvation. If you are secure and your loved ones were secure, you can look forward to a WONDERFUL reunion!!! Happy insecurity to you on your 1/7 th rest sabbath. Maryann | ||
| Billthompson |
Ken, I would not have to speculate as to your mindset if you'd ever answer my 3 questions. Actually I guess you did answer the third question when you said "I have never said and will never say any person is or is not saved". From this I can conclude that you yourself have no assurance of your own salvation. I thought that might be why you avoided that question for so long. Ken, this is the subject I'd dearly love to discuss with you, "assurance of salvation". The Bible does teach that we can have such assurance. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13 (KJV) Notice the verse says "know" not "hope". Ken, you can KNOW that you are saved, the Bible says so! Ken, when I say "I am saved" I am not being arrogant. Not at all. I am expressing my faith in the Word of God and what it teaches about salvation. That statement "I am saved" is all about Christ and what He has done, not about anything I have done. A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Billthompson |
Ken, Many SDAs I have talked to find the subject of salvation by Grace and not works (Eph. 2:8,9) to be repulsive since they fear the message threatens their precious sabbath day, the very center of their theology. This is an unwarranted fear. If the Bible teaches this way of salvation one must seriously, prayerfully consider it without regard to what it may mean where the weekly sabbath is concerned. My perspective (having been a SDA the first 23 years of my life and now having been a former for 21 years, that makes me 44) is that SDAs put the sabbath first in their mind and anything, whether in the Bible or anywhere else, that threatens the sabbath is of Satan and to be shunned. Since leaving the SDA church I have put Christ and the plan of salvation He ushered in at the very center of my theology and all else much match that understanding. So we both come to the table with a certain "truth" we will not waiver on. Which is a better foundation to build on, the weekly, 7th day sabbath or God's plan of salvation which Christ made possible by dieing to pay our sin debt on the cross? Salvation by works is an impossible goal anyway. Those who place their faith in works salvation are doomed to fail no matter what. Please take time to read these passages in your Bible. You do not have to be afraid of the Bible. Romans 3:10; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8; 1 John 1:10. These passages make it abundantly clear that being saved by works is not going to happen. Also, consider Romans 6:23; Titus 3:5; John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Galatians 2:16; Galatians 5:4; Romans 3:28 You'll never see the need for Grace until you see how helpless you are to meet God's perfect standard. You'll never be able to earn salvation. When this really hits you you'll cry out for His Mercy and Grace, like I did, and so many others have also. | ||
| Max |
My friend Ken, When Jesus says to your heart, "And he that taketh not his CROSS, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me" (Matthew 10:38 KJV), how do you respond?Ý Do you take it on gladly, singing, "I am 100% saved! I am 100% justified! I am 100% sanctified!I am 100% holy! I am 100% righteous! I am 100% perfect! I am 100% sinless! And it is ALL of Christ! It is NONE of myself! Never will be! Never can be!"? Or do you take on, instead, the much heavier two gigantic tables of stone with the Ten Commandments written on them and drag those around for the rest of your life? This is not a matter of "both-and." This is a matter of "either-or." Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Dear Ken, You wrote, "I have never said and will never say any person is or is not saved." Ken, you need to revise that statement, or at least explain it more fully. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV,Ý"For the preaching of the CROSS is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." For anyone to make the statement that you made is both to deny the cross of Christ and to condemn not only Paul -- and all those to whom he was referring -- but yourself as well. Think about it. There IS salvation in Christ's cross. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Dear friend Ken, I'm going to quote for you from Acts 26 (CEV) and substitute your name for Saul's and to make a few other appropriate substitutions. The reason I'm doing this is to show you that you have a chance to be like Saul. He became Paul when he finally realized that the person of our God Jesus Christ actually fulfilled and replaced the old covenant law on the cross and forever substituted himself for it, since it was only a shadow pointing to him anyway. Here goes: ^^One day Ken was in Silver Spring walking from the General Conference headquarters building with the authority and permission of the SDA hierarchy. About noon he saw a light brighter than the sun. It flashed from heaven on him and on everyone traveling with him. We all fell to the ground. Then I heard a voice say to me in English, "Ken, Ken, why are you so cruel to me? It's foolish to fight against me!" "Who are you?" Ken asked. Then the Lord answered, "I am Jesus! I am the one you are so cruel to. Now stand up. I have appeared to you, because I have chosen you to be my servant. You are to tell others what you have learned about me and what I will show you later." The Lord also said, "I will protect you from the Adventists and from the non-Adventists that I am sending you to. I want you to open their eyes, so that they will turn form darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. Then their sins will be forgiven, and by faith in me they will become part of God's holy people."^^ What do you say, Ken? Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Ken, Atonement (salvation) occurred in AD 31, not AD 1844. | ||
| Jtree |
All, According to Ellen G. White, one is not truly free from ones sins when they repent. Instead, ones sins are shifted from one heavenly record book to another. They are kept on file to condemn one if you have not PERFECTLY overcome each sin before your life (or "probation") closes. This is a "gospel" which leads many SDA's to be uncertain of their salvation, and thus they live in FEAR. As professed Christians, having confessed and repented of sins, we are saved RIGHT NOW. You have salvation RIGHT NOW. At this very moment, you stand before a LIVING GOD as though you had never sinned. In Jesus Christ you have confidence to stand before God with no fear of punishment. Ken read 1 John 4:16-18 (EVERYONE READ IT). The Gospel of Jesus Christ is CLEAR, Jesus takes away our sins the moment we confess and ask for forgiveness. He can never bring them up again for He "remembers them no more", and has COMPLETELY removed them. Not only is Jesus our High Priest, and His blood our Sacrificial Offering, but He is also our SCAPEGOAT, the Bearer of our sins. He is OUR Judge, but also our Mediator and our Defense Attorney. Every part of our salvation is of Jesus Christ. Consider the Word of God. "God...has SAVED US and called us to a Holy life--NOT BECAUSE OF ANYTHING WE HAVE DONE, but because of His own purpose and grace." 2 Tim 1:9 When Jesus forgives you, He takes away your sin and destroys even its record by nailing it to His cross. Now Ken, OUR DEAR FRIEND! Was the atonement for sin completed at the cross? The Gospel of Ellen G. White makes your atonement an on-going process druing which you must WORK to become perfect. Working to become perfect is an impossible task, The Bible says so: "All our righteous acts are like filthy rags. we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away" Isa 64:6 Ken, do you know that Ellen G. White repeatedly confuses temptation with sin? The contradicting the clear teachings of Scripture. According to her your salvation depends on your ability to resist temptation. If you should gratefully express your gratitude that Jesus has saved you, then Ellen G. White claims you are trusting in yourself. Your salvation must always remain an uncertainty. But the Gospel of Jesus Christ makes it plain that YOU ARE SAVED the moment you accept Christ. Your salvation does not depend on YOUR GOOD WORKS, but on God's GRACE. God calls you and saves you and empowers you to do good works, but never on your own merits. On your own merits you will ALWAYS be a sinner. From your viewpoint you will ALWAYS be less than perfect. The Good News is that through God's GRACE, you are now A FORGIVEN, SAVED SINNER. From God's viewpoint, looking through the shed blood of Jesus, you stand perfect before Him. You are blameless and acceptable in His sight right now. Ken, will you trust Jesus with your salvation now? (Back to work now) | ||
| Max |
Joshua Tree, I love your name. Reason: I live not terribly far from Joshua Tree National Park next to Twenty-Nine Palms, California. I love to go there and stand in the middle of the joshua tree forest, which is in the center of the park. Those are among the most amazing trees (of the yucca family) on the planet -- growing up out of almost totally waterless desert. Truly a miracle of our God Jesus Christ's makling! Legend has it that when the Mormon pioneers came west the joshua trees pointed them to their Promised Land -- primarily the long valley that runs down the center of Utah from Salt Lake City to Provo. Oops, got carried away there. Anyway, thanks for the great post, JT. It reminded me of a statement by erstwhile SDA GC President Robert Folkenberg shortly before his Fall-kenberg. He said, "We are living in the antitypical day of atonement [ADOA or Yom Kipur]." Little did he know how true his words were. Only he thought ADOA began in 1844 and continues still. He lives in not-so-blissful ignornace that Scripture says ADOA began -- and ended -- in AD 31. Max of the Cross | ||
| Ken |
Hi Max: Thanks for your thoughts on 1 John, I contunied reading and found it interesting that in 1 John 5:1-3 It says "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." Had a Blessed Sabbath at Church wish you all were there to have enjoyed it with us! Oh wait that would have been grievous for you. Sorry Following Jesus Ken | ||
| Larimobley |
Same book , 1 John: "And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us." (1 John 3:23-24) I would conclude that the "commandments" John is referring to in chapter 5 refer back to chapter 3, not the 10 Commandments. What does everyone else think about the "commandments" John refers to? In His grace, Lari | ||
| Max |
Dear Ken, Loved what you quoted. ^^1 John 5:1-3 It says "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love God, and keep HIS commandments. For this is the love of God that we keep HIS commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."^^ In all of John's writings (gospel, letters, apocalypse) the Greek word "commandments" ALWAYS refers to Christ's commandments -- which NEVER include Sabbathkeeping. Conversely, the word "law" in all John's writings NEVER refers to Christ's commandments, but ALWAYS refers to Moses' commandments -- which ALWAYS include Sabbathkeeping, circumcision, kosher eating, tassels at the bottoms of your garments, sideburns that hang down past your jaw, etc., etc., all 613 of them! These are what the word "grievous" means in this context. Thus 1 John 5 clearly says: * "Keep CHRIST'S commandments" rather than Moses' law. * For CHRIST'S "commandments are not grievous" as Moses' law is. Glad you enjoyed a great Sabbath according to the permission given you in Romans 14. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Larimobley, hi. Your post popped up on my screen only after I read and responded to Ken's latest. Sooo, I'll comment now: Beautiful! |
