| Author |
Message |
Billtwisse
| | Posted on Monday, October 16, 2000 - 10:43 am: |     |
Dear Pat,
You state:
"This is a terrible judgment upon very many godly people - many who know well that they are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone."
I could not disagree more emphatically. The mainline Prostestant denominations are the original heirs of the Reformation. Today they are known as 'United Presbyterian', 'United Church of Christ', United Methodist', 'The Episcopal Church', etc. All of them are what I would term B.S. churches--due to who they believe Jesus Christ is: bastard son. None of these denominations believe in objective truth today. If you take communion in them, you are communing with a lot of infidels and inviting the judgment of 1 Cor. 11 upon yourself. There are a few true believers in these groups--but these believers are deceived in thinking that God wants them to remain in apostate communions as a 'witness.' God has already removed the candlestick of these denominations.
I attended a debate on the 'Jesus Seminar' a few years ago in St. Louis. If you don't think that what I have stated above is true, all I can say is that I wish you had been at that seminar.
The heresy of SDAism is nothing more than a single elimination of human 'water-waste' in the ocean of the darkness of this age. We need to stop thinking that our current enemy is primarily Adventism. Those of us who have left it are no different than anyone else delivered from the kingdom of darkness. All are rescued from some form of heresy or deception.
The 'evangelical' denominations (daughters of the mainliners) are not yet apostate in the ultimate sense. I apologize if I did not make my position clear on this. I stated that they are in great danger of becoming the same as their 'mothers'. However, there is still time left for repentance. If we judge from past history, however, how likely is this to occur? God only knows.
Lorinc, you state:
"I'd be interested in hearing more about what sinful "heresies" the evangelical denominations are teaching (Forgive me, I haven't gone back and re-read this entire thread; if this has been covered, a brief synopsis will do :-)."
I have covered this in many other posts. I realize that I should be starting my own website, rather than trying to explain all of this here. Hopefully I will in the next year or so!
The current heresies of 'evangelical' denominations (in my opinion):
Law Requirements Added to the Gospel. These are conditions of fellowship and leadership in the denominations that promote them:
1. Sunday Sabbath (ala Presbyterian, Episcopal, Reformed, Methodist confessions).
2. Tithing.
3. A particular administration of water baptism (either adult submersion or infant sprinkling--both systems condemning the other as practicing non-baptism and inviting the displeasure of God).
4. Sacred buildings and the obligation to give of our means to 'build a house for God'.
5. The one-bishop (pastor) rule and clergy/laity distinction--demanding our absolute allegiance. This is enforced upon the penalty of rejecting God's appointed leadership and inviting God's wrath. The whole approach rejects prophecy as a NT gift for today. I'm not talking about prophecy in the SDA sense at all (new revelation)--but the NT sense. Revelation and prophecy are not the same gift in the NT. The long and short of it: appointed leaders are subject to prophecy that God has given; prophecy is subject to the godly discernment of appointed leaders. But we must have both.
6. Observances of sacred times (other than the Sabbath).
7. Observance of frivolous methodologies not taught in the Bible (steps, disciplines, psychological gimmicks, etc.).
Foolish Philosophy Added to the Gospel. These are conditions of fellowship and leadership in the denominations that promote them:
1. The free-will theory of Justin Martyr.
2. Dispensationalism.
3. Chiliasm (belief in a fleshly millennium).
4. Hyper-Calvinism.
5. Methodism (belief in 'steps' of personal discipline to achieve holiness).
6. Contemporary movements (men's movement, women's movement, a whole host of ministries claiming God's ordination, shepherding movement, Bill Gothard, evangelicalism, etc.).
7. The Miltonian ('Paradise Lost') theory of the origin of evil (pure speculation, a Christianised version of Plato)--denying God's sovereignty over the origin and purpose of evil in the universe.
8. Christ's supposed ability to sin.
9. Perfectionism.
10. The Justinian, Tertullianian, and Augustinian view of hell (eternal physical torture of the lost to the limit--causing God and the saints to shrink with horror and eternal mourning).
11. The Arnobian view of hell (annihilationism--denying the seriousness of the claims of the gospel upon mankind).
12. Gnosticism (increasing in evangelicalism like wildfire).
13. Universalism (increasing in evangelicalism like wildfire).
14. Modern psychology.
Many others that we could get into.
Other observations (not directed to one person):
The ultimate insult on this board is to be compared with Ellen White. Many are trying this foolish approach against anyone whom they disagree with. If someone opposes liberalism, they are compared to Ellen White since Ellen White opposed the higher critical view of scripture. This type of accusaion is far more destructive and misleading (calculatingly so) than the 'flames and personal insults/attacks that will not be tolerated.' The latter can be challenged easily--usually resulting in the repentance of the offending party. The former attack is very subtle and difficult to combat in simple and undiscerning minds. It is an easy, cheap, and seemingly effective tool--much like the politicans of today use to discredit their opponents.
--Twisse |
Graceambassador
| | Posted on Monday, October 16, 2000 - 6:38 pm: | |
Dear Bill:
As one who was compared to EGW twice in this forum by two different members when I was attempting to defend the "L" of the Tulip, I could not continue to be quiet and and had to exhume myself from this tomb of silence express my firm agreement with you when you state the "cheap shot" theory of those who prefer not to "be confused with facts" but to remain in their intellectual comfort zone.
I'd say however that I was not in any way offended by having my writings and methodology compared to that of EGW. I believe that the sentiment that prompts one to call the other EGW comes from a "self-victimizing" spirit that is perpetuated in the lives of those who were once hurt by her doctrines.
My message to these type of people is none other than 2 Cor. 5:17. I pray that these brethren will be healed completely from the "deadly fear" of the waves of the boisterous sea of of EGW's doctrines, and notice the presence of the firm hand of Jesus rescuing them from the troubled waters and walking them back to the safety of the boat! Once with Jesus in the boat, YOU ARE A NEW CREATION! OLD THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY, AND BEHOLD, EVERYTHING IS NEW!
The core of the message of the Embassy of Grace, my ministry is "Turning Victims into Victors". It is based upon the Cave of Adulam, 1 Sam 22:1-2 and 2 Sam 23: 8-13. First, they were hurt and mutilated. Then in 2 Sam, they became the "mighty men" of David. God wants to lead victims from the Cave of Adulam out into being "reassigned for battle". The Cave was a place of refuge, regrouping, rest, restoration and REASSIGMENT to RETALIATE!
I pray that this forum becomes the Cave of Adulam only for a time! But for those who still call EGW everyone who disagrees with them I say" IT IS TIME TO GET OUT OF THE CAVE! I'm not a deputy-Holy Spirit, but someone ought to preach on this next Sunday!
I do not apologize for getting out of the subject of this thread. I do in my heart, rather, forgave completely those who compared me with such a purveyor of error.
Thanks Bill
Grace Ambassador |
Graceambassador
| | Posted on Monday, October 16, 2000 - 7:32 pm: | |
Just so Colleen does not have an eye sore:
In the last phrase of my post I should have said,
I do in my heart, rather, FORGIVE...(so on... so forth...) (I wrote: "I do... FORGAVE")
It was more of a typo than an English blunder!
(I don't got no reason for no excuse)
Sorry, English Teacher!
Grace Ambassador |
Billtwisse
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2000 - 6:01 am: | |
Thanks, GA! You are a faithful servant of Christ in every way!
This tactic of comparing opponents with Ellen White is no doubt viewed as superbly effective and the 'final word' by those who indulge it. To those discerning minds who want to sort out truth from error, I would make the following point: Ellen White taught a lot of truth. This should not suprise us.
Many today (prominent and unprominent) teach a lot of gospel truth. The issue is not what one confesses as a minimum. It is whether one uses the gospel to judge everything (all beliefs & practices). The Galatians and Colossians professed the gospel. However, their additions of law-requirements and human philosophy destroyed their testimony. It is no different with Ellen White and the SDA's.
Take a book like the Desire of Ages, for instance. It was actually compiled mostly by W. W. Prescott and others; Ellen White's authorship is gratuitous. Since large portions of the book were plagiarized from Hannah, Harris, March, etc.--the content is very gospel-oriented in many cases. But it also contains the damnable Irvingite heresy of Christ's fallen human nature! If I make assertions in agreement with the gospel-oriented material, I'm likely to be compared to Ellen White on this board! Yet I am really being compared to the copied authors!
To use the illustration that you gave me privately, some will perceive a rattlesnake in a foot-long sausage!
--Twisse |
Cindy
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2000 - 6:34 am: | |
Dear Bill, I have enjoyed your studies on the New Covenant so much. Your thoughts above are very interesting; and I know I agree with much of what you say...I will have to think and study about some of it though!
I do feel so much is added to the apostolic preaching of Jesus and Him crucified, this wonderful message of free GRACE!!-- diluted by various requirements and pious declarations of duty and belief.
The challenge to me is how to grasp and express the love of Christ even while arguing against these 'additions' to the Gospel message.
"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging symbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries, and all knowlege , and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing...
I Corinthians 14:6
Thanks again for your input here...
Grace always,
Cindy |
Max
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2000 - 4:36 pm: | |
Greetings Bill,
I was awed and subdued a bit by your
evaluation of current modern/postmodern
variances in Christendom:
1. The free-will theory of Justin Martyr.
2. Dispensationalism.
3. Chiliasm (belief in a fleshly millennium).
4. Hyper-Calvinism.
5. Methodism (belief in 'steps' of personal
discipline to achieve holiness).
6. Contemporary movements (men's
movement, women's movement, a whole host
of ministries claiming God's ordination,
shepherding movement, Bill Gothard,
evangelicalism, etc.).
7. The Miltonian ('Paradise Lost') theory of the
origin of evil (pure speculation, a
Christianised version of Plato)--denying God's
sovereignty over the origin and purpose of evil
in the universe.
8. Christ's supposed ability to sin.
9. Perfectionism.
10. The Justinian, Tertullianian, and
Augustinian view of hell (eternal physical
torture of the lost to the limit--causing God and
the saints to shrink with horror and eternal
mourning).
11. The Arnobian view of hell
(annihilationism--denying the seriousness of
the claims of the gospel upon mankind).
12. Gnosticism (increasing in evangelicalism
like wildfire).
13. Universalism (increasing in
evangelicalism like wildfire).
14. Modern psychology.
And in the main I certainly tend to agree,
although with considerably less scholarship
than you have obviously devoted. Cognitively, I
had never personally reached those
categories before. And I thank you for stating
them so clearly and unequivocally. You're
making my dendrites dance! And I realize that
I've got a lot of Twisse-stimulated thinking to
do!
I've been restricting my study pretty much to
Scripture alone, aside from trying to get my
mind around some of the major
interpretations of difficult scriptural passages.
Again, thanks for the update.
Blessings,
Max of the Cross |
Dale
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2000 - 8:29 pm: | |
Greetings Bill,
I too have spent considerable time reviewing your New Covenant postings, and as promised, will give my feedback. I found them fascinating but admit that sometimes your great intellect sails over my head! I realize that I have a lot of learing to do in order to catch up with you.
I really found nothing to disagree with other than it is a bit difficult for me to be quite as critical of organizational structure as you seem to be, i.e., not trusting leadership to end up abusing power and becoming corrupt. It is probably because I have lived in the bureaucracy of a large health care system and realize the need for structure in accomplishing various tasks. Admittedly, the need for structure in the health care environment is far different than that of religion.
I can tell a good many horror stories about the abuse of power within health care systems as well as within religion and can thus identify with what you are saying. After leaving SDAism, I have no interest in ever becoming involved with a religious denomination again. I do enjoy the non-denominational church that I now attend. The structure is simple, but we are in the midst of a church building project which still seems an important aspect to me in reaching out to the community and providing a place of worship and praise.
Just my thoughts. I do want you to know how much I appreciate your postings, especially on the New Covenant. You inspire me to think!!
In His Grace,
Dale |
Pat
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 12:34 pm: | |
Mr. Twisse, I stand by my statement on the churches...Perhaps it is different here in the Bible belt. You act as if you are the only one who searches and studies.. I know what the Jesus Seminar is - I know a member of the Seminar, and sat through his class as he explained it. I do not in any way accept it - nor does our church or the pastors.
I cannot accept your painting with a wide brush all Christians. I have been unhappy with some of the changes in some of the mainline churches, but I am happy to note that there are now some changes "back", as the "little people" in the congregations are becoming more involved with the "powers that be" in the leadership. The liberals crept up on the people in many cases, but here in the South I have noted just recently statements by both United Methodist as well as Episcopalian lay leaders that changes are taking place and the denominations moving back to the Scripture. (BTW, have you spent any time and effort at all in praying for them? Many lay people have been devastated by what their leaders did to them.)
If you dislike "united" you dislike Jesus' prayer to His father in John 17 - "that they may all be one, even as we are one..." This is another SDA hangover. It is very hard to remove oneself from that "only true church" elitism. God told Elijah that He had 7000 who had "not bowed the knee to Baal." I'm sure there are millions of whom you are unaware - little people, going about their daily routines, trusting completely in Jesus for their salvation. And they all are "one" - the body of Christ!
I'm sorry friends - I must agree with another ex-SDA cyberfriend who said to me just today that he took a look at FAF and saw no difference in it and aToday. It seems that some people here (not all, I'm sure) are still SDAs in that they are
a) condemnatory of true Christians who are living by faith in Jesus in other denominations, and
b) looking at their own lives for all those wonderful changes which simply means that they are *not* busy looking unto Jesus and so busy doing His work that there is no time to dwell on oneself...I could be wrong, but I was not the only person who got that impression here...
As Martin Luther said, we MUST keep salvation by faith "far asunder" from any works which we might do. And considering all the time spent here on "life changes", I seriously wonder about the faith in salvation by grace alone - faith in the doing and dying of Jesus Christ which is the SUM AND SUBSTANCE of our salvation....Why would anyone want to stand around looking in the mirror when we can be - SHOULD BE - looking at Christ, the author and perfector of our faith?
Beats me...I left that belief...I'm not about to go full circle back to looking in a mirror for changes - neither my own or EGW's mirror!!! There's no difference! I will praise the Lord Who has saved me, and I will try my best to spend the time I have left promoting Him and His salvation - into all the world. He said, "You are My witnesses." He didn't say Go out and witness to your changed lives...
For it is by grace that you are saved, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God - not of works, NOT OF WORKS - NOT OF WORKS - lest any should boast,,,,But there is now NO CONDEMNATION to them who are in Christ Jesus...
Folks, what more do you want? What more is there? I don't understand all this emphasis on life changes...I really don't...Jesus is the REALITY, the CRUX of all our lives if we are saved...He alone is worthy, and it is He Who we should be promoting - constantly, always, and praising forever!
Pat |
Rayna
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 7:17 pm: | |
AMEN PAT!! WONDERFUL!!! I AM SO HAPPY TO READ YOUR POST. I HAD RATHER BE WITH OPEN SINNERS THAN TO SIT AND LISTEN TO SOME BORING "SO CALLED CHANGED LIFE BELIEVER" TELL ABOUT HIS WONDERFUL "CHANGED LIFE". THAT IS CERTAINLY NOT THE GOSPEL. WE ARE SINNERS, AND ONLY THE WORK OF JESUS AT CALVARY AND HIS SUBSTITUTIONARY WORK FOR US IN HEAVEN IS THE GOSPEL. IT IS FINISHED!! PEOPLE WITH THEIR "LIFE CHANGES" AND THIS FALSE EMOTIONAL EXCITEMENT ARE SO FAKE. BELIEVE ME, IT WON'T LAST.
SEEMS TO ME LIKE THEY ARE TRYING TO OUTDO ONE ANOTHER IN THEIR GREAT LIFE CHANGES. AND GUESS WHAT? THESE LIFE CHANGES ARE SO SINFUL BECAUSE OF THEIR SINFUL NATURE. THEY CONTRIBUTE NOTHING TO THEIR HAVING ETERNAL LIFE, AND IF THEY THINK THEY DO, THEN THE WORK OF JESUS IS NOT ENOUGH.
PRAISE GOD FOR HIS WONDERFUL GIFT AND I REST IN HIS ACCEPTANCE OF ME IN JESUS, AND THE ASSURANCE THAT I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE BECAUSE OF LOVE AND MERCY TO ME. THIS IS THE TRUE GOSPEL. |
Patti
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 8:13 pm: | |
Thank God for the mercy of God, Rayna, because I know myself, and I know that if Jesus Christ had not perfectly worked out my salvation, then I would blow it if it were left in my hands. Isn't it nice to truly rest in His finished work?
Thank you for uplifting me this evening.
Grace and peace,
Patti |
Billtwisse
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 8:32 pm: | |
Brethren,
Well, there is so much to respond to. I will be brief:
Cindy, you state:
I do feel so much is added to the apostolic preaching of Jesus and
Him crucified, this wonderful message of free GRACE!!-- diluted by
various requirements and pious declarations of duty and belief.
The challenge to me is how to grasp and express the love of Christ
even while arguing against these 'additions' to the Gospel message.
Twisse:
No matter how much we disagree with established dogma, we can still practice love as taught in 1 John. There is not a single person in my congregation (PCA) who knows me that doubts my love for him/her personally. This is in spite of the fact that we disagree on doctrine almost endlessly!
Max, you state:
And in the main I certainly tend to agree,
although with considerably less scholarship
than you have obviously devoted. Cognitively, I
had never personally reached those
categories before. And I thank you for stating
them so clearly and unequivocally. You're
making my dendrites dance! And I realize that
I've got a lot of Twisse-stimulated thinking to do
Twisse:
Thanks so much, Max. As our mutual friend Des Ford (whom I've opposed a lot lately) used to say: "your words are very kind but they're a hard lot to live up to!" As soon as I left Andrews in December of 1980 I began an intensive study of all these issues in Christianity. I haven't stopped since, except for very brief moments of contemplation and prayer! I have tried to follow the advice of our good friend Smuts Van Rooyen (who probably regrets today that I followed his advice): "When all of your traditional idols of thinking are dashed to pieces, the way out of confusion is not to ignore the issues--but to continue studying them." Many prefer the approach of 'ignoring' tough matters and simply loving one-another but that will get us nowhere.
Dale, you state:
I really found nothing to disagree with other than it is a bit difficult for me to be quite as critical of organizational structure as you seem to be, i.e., not trusting leadership to end up abusing power and becoming corrupt. It is probably because I have lived in the bureaucracy of a large health care system and realize the need for structure in accomplishing various tasks. Admittedly, the need for structure in the health care environment is far different than that of
religion.
Twisse:
We can only continue to study independently and together. The Lord is our shepherd. God leads us all at different paces. I would ask you one question: do you feel free to disagree with these leaders that you talk about on SIGNIFICANT matters?
Pat & Rayna:
I will not quote your statements but simply respond to principles. We will never agree on the nature, purpose, and future of today's mainline Protestantism. The leader of the Jesus Seminar that I was referring to was a respected professor at Eden Seminary. He had a lot of people believing that he accepted orthodox Christianity but I was not deceived. The pastors of local mainline congregations have a lot of people believing this too. However, you should not believe them! The NT assembly that Christ founded is not a mixture of believers and unbelievers (which IS the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, and SDA doctrine). Those who believe this recite the parable of the wheat and tares--with the majority being unbelievers. However, Christ says emphatically: 'the field is the world.' It is not the assembled people of God. The communion of NT saints is a congress ('political assembly' under Christ) of believers. It exists wherever two or three are gathered in his name. Some false professors may slip in for a time, but Christ has given clear instructions as to how these persons should be identified and removed from fellowship. I'm getting the impression from you that we can simply commune with others in congregations that deny the virgin birth, physical resurrection, substutionary atonement, material hereafter, & other vital truths and that communion participates in the true congress of Christ. That is just plain wrong and contrary to everything taught by the apostles. I can only warn you not to take communion in these false congregations. I pray that God will help you to make the right decision.
The same principles apply to taking communion in SDA congregations, once we know the true gospel.
Let me clarify once again that I am NOT referring to communing in evangelical congregations that profess belief in the Trinity, Deity of Christ, Justification by Grace through Faith, etc. These have their own problems but they are not apostate to the core at the present time.
--Twisse |
Graceambassador
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 1:53 pm: | |
Dear Brethren:
Bill Twisse warned us echoing Paul, the Apostle:
in congregations that deny the virgin birth, physical resurrection, substutionary atonement, material hereafter, & other vital truths and that communion participates in the true congress of Christ. That is just plain wrong and contrary to everything taught by the apostles. I can only warn you not to take communion in these false congregations
I want to go a step farther and present an argument of my own. And my credentials for such a warning are the fact that I've been in the ministry for a great part of my adult life, ministering to all kinds of what is called "mainstream" denominations.
Any teacher, who presents himself in the Body of Christ, lecturing on any doctrine, that may seem innocent enough for us to hear, has to be under the revealing spot light of a good measure of spiritual discernment. Here are some of these teachings that may appear innocent, as I said, but, without saying, they go hand in hand with everything that Bill Twisse warned us about. These are "Contemporary Errors", that are ACTUALLY PART OF THOSE MENTIONED ABOVE. Followers of these also should not "enjoy" our communion:
1 - Teachings on "inner healing" - It mixes Psychology with theology (bad mixture) and denies the complete deliverance offered by the Blood of Jesus in the Cross. Worse yet, it uses methods of the Old Covenant to promulgate deliverance, hence, leading people to drift backwards from Grace into Law. (I have not found the good thing in this movement yet. If anyone has, I am willing to listen).
2 - Teaching on "canceling past curses". The same argument above is applicable.
3 - The "joy laughter movement". It nullifies the real essence of spiritual joy and turns it into a fleeting and carnal useless and ridiculous experience. Joy becomes something you "do" and something you "get" in Jesus, and not something that it is imparted SPIRITUALLY right along with Salvation. This type of teaching is self centered and not Christ centered. Thus, it denies the work of Christ. Evrytime I say "it denies the work of Christ" I mean that it "innocently" but "ominously" plays against the deity of Christ.
4 - The "God chaser movement". Very new. Just got started. It implies the opposite of THE ESSENCE OF CHRISTIANITY. THE ESSENCE OF CHRISTIANITY STATES THAT GOD IS ALWAYS LOOKING AND CHASING MEN TO SAVE HIM. This novel movement preaches that we MUST HAVE an attitude of one who persistently seeks, chases after God, as though God is lost somewhere. This is a demonic way to swerve the saved from understanding that Salvation was God's initiative in the first place. Jesus authored and finished our faith. He began a good work in us and is able to (a sovereign term to indicate that He will) finish it. These teachers will never cease from teaching that you actually "cooperated with God in your Salvation".
5 - The "curse versus tithing" teaching. An old trick. How many saved people out there we can say that have "been cursed" by being saved? How can ANYTHING lead us back from "ALL KINDS OF SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS IN HEAVENLY PLACES" (Eph. 1) to a CURSE? This teaching is self serving and the only benefit goes to the teacher of such a teaching. True giving, in the Covenant of Grace, is described in 2 Cor 9, specially on verse 7. The point is that Paul used the Old Testament to support just about the entire body of his teaching. However, when it comes to giving, Paul never quotes Malachi 3:10. An omission? Nay! Rather, the Holy Spirit fitting things to accomplish Grace and not legalism.
I have some more. For now, these are the type of CURRENT teachers and followers that are as deadly, and that actually complete, those refered by Bill Twisse's warning. With these, I will not have "koinonia"!
I can only pray for them. Evey time I go to their churches and attempt to point out the Biblical teaching (rather than "my truth"), I am shunned like the plague! Great, then I can't be blamed for not communing with them!
Grace Ambassador |
Patti
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 3:35 pm: | |
Dear Bill and GA,
I am in full agreement that there are many heresies being accepted and revered in mainstream Protestantism today. I believe that the only cure for heresy of any form is a good, solid, continual, heaping, helping of Gospel. There are two methods for dealing with heresy:
1. We can point out the errors of others, giving Scriptural support for them all.
2. We can point others to the all-sufficient saving work of Jesus Christ in our behalf, and let the Holy Spirit convince and convict.
If we use method number one, we will invoke feelings of frustration and hostility.
If we use the second method, we have uplifted Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Then we exhibit enough faith to allow the Holy Spirit to work in His own way in the heart of the hearer. It is easy for us, His witnesses, to become caught up in our own importance when we forget that salvation is the work of God from first to last. WE cannot convert ANYONE. We can only present the great saving work of Jesus Christ and leave the work in the believer's heart to the Holy Spirit.
Patti
Having said that, there are some of you here, I am sure, who will ask me if I always exemplify the second method of dealing with heresy instead of the first. The answer is, for those of you who know anything of me at all, a resounding, "No." But it is a goal of mine to "run not before the Lord," to lessen my feelings of my own importance, and to truly trust that God will deliver all that He has promised, not only concerning my own salvation, but in dealing with the reception of the Gospel by others. In His time, not in mine. |
Graceambassador
| | Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 4:19 pm: | |
Dear Patti:
It is a great idea to be able to use number 2!
However, allow me to repeat an illustration that I've used countless of times in forums over the Internet and at least twice in this forum:
"When Lazarus came off the tomb under Jesus command, he was as alive as any other human being could be. He had resurrected life! Christ had given him life. Nonetheless, he could not move! He was mummyfied by the shrouding straps, which bound him hand-to-chest, ankle-to-ankle. He was a veritable MUMMY! What a tragedy! He was alive but could not ENJOY LIFE!
Jesus seing the HELPLESS STATE OF A RESURRECTED MAN commanded MAN TO UNTIE HIM!"
As I teach (rather than argue as sometimes I do here) people the Saving, Sufficient work of Jesus to people, often I am speaking to SAVED PEOPLE. People who HAVE ALREADY BEEN MADE ALIVE! However, because of some "weight" (Hebrews 12) they are beset and cannot run the spiritual race! They cannot move. The weight may be a lack of knowledge of the entire body of Revelation. Knowing revelation will not save them but it will certainly give them a loosening power, and it will enable them to drop their "weights" and straps that turns them into a LIVING MUMMY. These weights and straps are PRECISELY things such as, wrong beliefs, dependance on the Old Covenant, self-reliance for spiritual matters, personality worship to current leaders and others. MY ROLE AND MY CALLING IS AND IT HAS BEEN NOT ONLY TO EVANGELIZE THE UNSAVED, BUT ALSO TO "DISCIPULATE" THE SAVED. Based upon this calling, I have the duty of pointing out the correct way, often times by showing THE WRONG WAY!
I am the one whose calling includes (but is not limited to) UNTYING THE LIVING MUMMIES (no offense intended).
I know I sound "preachy". No apologies! If God wanted me to be another way, He would have made me as such!
I believe that the fear of REJECTION as we point people their wrong ways to LEAD THEM BACK TO THE RIGHT WAY is not taught in the Bible and it is in fact not seen either in Jesus or Paul.
There were occasions in which Paul simply told Timothy to deal with false teachers by just telling him: "Teach these things (the Word)". Or, BE AN EXAMPLE (1 Timothy 1:11-12) but in other occasions he tells the same Timothy to rebuke false teachers "sharply". The distinction between to whom should I teach and who should I rebuke sharply is as follows:
TEACH THE FOLLOWERS
REBUKE SHARPLY THE TEACHERS
Sometimes we feel that our reputation as "loving" and "graceful" people will be jeopardized should we point out error to those that are going astray.
But, ask those who were TRAGICALLY LIVING THEIR SAVED LIVES AS MUMMIES, NOT ENJOYING THE FULLNESS OF THE JOY GIVEN BY CHRIST IN SALVATION IF THEY ARE UPSET FOR BEING TAUGHT THE RIGHT WAY!
I just trust the Holy Spirit to help me believing the statement of fact made by Jesus "MY SHEEP SHALL HEAR MY VOICE".
Also, we shoud not consider ourselves "loving and graceful" in our own merit. Only the presence of Jesus in our lives, through the work of the Holy Spirit can make us "loving and graceful". So, it is a "received" thing and not of our own. Why worry? God has not given us the spirit of fear...
May God help us to find peace as each follows his own calling, always ready to discern when it is God's inspiring power in us or it is our ego that is prompting us to expose error. AMEN!
Grace Ambassador |
Billtwisse
| | Posted on Friday, October 20, 2000 - 6:20 pm: | |
Dear GA:
I love what you have to say about the "God chaser movement". This is the opposite of Francis Thompsons "Hound of Heaven."
Religion is the eternal effort of man to reach up and find God. Christianity is ever and always God reaching down to man. We can never find God through our 'chasing', he always finds us. What a liberation!
Christianity is NOT a religion. Never, never, NEVER!
Also, I love the illustration of Lazarus needing his bonds untied. I never thought of this: thanks a million! So many born-again Christians today have been shackled against spiritual growth by institutional churchianity and its demands. The tithing law is its favorite weapon of the theologians of external dominion (the opposite of Holy Spirit control)--since tithing guilt is what keeps churchianity alive financially! Failure to tithe is the only sin against OT law that my own denomination will never forgive--NEVER!
Patti: You are right, we cannot convert! How profound! The notion of counting 'souls saved' by human influence is one of the most dreadful consequences of depending upon man and his 'ingenious methods' of evangelism.
ALL: I am not being judgmental in affirming that we should not take communion in churches that have a large number of persons who fail to confess the Trinity, Deity of Christ, salvation by Grace through faith in Christ alone, and the infallibility of biblical revelation. How can anyone say that this type of congregation resembles the assemblies founded by the apostles?
--Twisse |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 3:28 am: | |
Pat, Rayna, Patti, Graceambassador, ... , and
any I may have missed, God bless you all! It's
been sheer delight trading Scriptures with you!
Max of the Cross |
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