| Author | Message | ||
| Jtree |
The gospel is preached for the "obedience of faith." God-given faith believes and obeys the testimony of God concerning His Son. The life of a believer is a life of obedience to God. But it is not our obedience but the obedience of Christ that is our righteousness before God. Christ was "obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." The principle is still the same. No obedience or sacrifice to God in one area will compensate for disobedience to plain commands of God in another area. God commands us not only to believe on Christ but to follow Him, to confess Him in baptism, to be identified with His people, to hear His gospel, to separate ourselves from this world (especially its false religions), to love one another, to pray, to give as He has prospered us, and to forsake not the assembling of ourselves together for the purpose of publicly worshipping Him. We are to be doers of the Word and not hearers only. What do you say? | ||
| Max |
Jtree, I think that: 14 "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. --Matthew 5:14-16 NIV God is blessing your continuing witness here! | ||
| Patti |
This is not necessarily in answer to your post, Josh. I just tried to find an appropriate heading for this post. There are only 2 possibilities: Either we are saved by the work of Jesus Christ alone, or we are saved by something that we do (even in part). There may be varying degrees of legalism, but the essence is the same. Let me reiterate a story that I heard on another forum: The story is told of a couple teenage kids, one 15 the other almost 18 years of age. There was so much they wanted to experience and of course so little time to do it in. They often pushed their mom and dad to new limits. What's wrong with that movie? Its only rated R because of that one sex scene. Its only PG13 because they take the Lords name in vain 4 times in the movie. We only watch these movies once in a while. Mom! Dad won't let me go out with the other girls Saturday night. Just because they don't follow Christ like I do, doesn't mean they are going to influence me! Its not like I go out with them all the time, only once in awhile. I don't want to hurt their feelings by not showing up. Dad! Mom won't let me get a tattoo, come on dad! A little one isn't going to hurt, everyone else is. Its not that bad. Its only a little bitty one! You probably won't even notice. Its not like I'm getting tattoos all over my body. I haven't pierced my nose, yet! Then one Sunday evening dad joined his family in the living room. He had been busy earlier in the day preparing his special brownie recipe. He told them that he prepared his brownies with all the best ingredients he could find. He modeled his brownies after world award winning brownie recipes. He assured them he baked them at just the right temperature for just the right length of time. They were perfect! He only added one little extra ingredient. And just a little. He sure it wouldn't hurt anything. The extra ingredient? Dog poop. The kids quite taken back from this new ingredient wouldn't come close to taking a sample bite. Dad couldn't understand. Why kids? Its only a little bitty bit of dog poop. You probably won't even notice. Mom joined in, It's not like dad prepares these brownies everyday. It is a special occasion. It won't hurt you to eat these brownies this one time. Come on, be a good sport you wouldn't want to hurt your dads feelings now would you? Its a new thing! I'm sure everyone else will be eating them The purpose in posting this little story on the other forum was to present object lesson for moral living, but this story can serve a much better purpose: it is an excellent object lesson for salvation. Even if we only depend a little bit upon our own righteousness as a part of our salvation, we have added dog poop to the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ. Even if we claim that the Holy Spirit is inspiring us to good works, those works still are produced by sinful flesh and are still dog poop. There is none that doeth good, no not one. All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. And it only takes a tiny bit of filthy rags (dog poop) to corrupt our hope for salvation. Our salvation is based on nothing less than the perfect life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Let us not spurn this great gift by insisting on adding our own filthy rags righteousness to it. Jesus is my righteousness. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Max |
NIV Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and THIS IS NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus TO DO GOOD WORKS, WHICH GOD PREPARED IN ADVANCE FOR US TO DO. | ||
| Max |
2 Timothy 3:10 You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11 persecutions, sufferings--what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12 In fact, EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO LIVE A GODLY LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS WILL BE PERSECUTED, 13 while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. | ||
| Rayna |
Our works are only called "good works" before God because our sinfulness is not imputed to them. We are forgiven and our works are accepted of God because we have accepted Jesus. Our works are offerings of thankfulness for the completed work of salvation in Jesus. | ||
| Max |
Romans 12:1 I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but BE TRANSFORMED by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. 3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather THINK OF YOURSELF WITH SOBER JUDGMENT, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7 If it is serving, let him SERVE; if it is teaching, let him TEACH; 8 if it is encouraging, let him ENCOURAGE; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him GIVE generously; if it is leadership, let him GOVERN diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully. 9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. | ||
| Max |
God bless you Patti and Rayna! It's been sheer delight trading Scriptures with you! Max of the Cross | ||
| Rayna |
Sure Max, hope you have a sinless day!!! Rayna | ||
| Max |
Good morning Rayna! Thank you! NIV Hebrews 10:14-15. "By one sacrifice he has made perfect [sinless!] forever those who are being made holy. The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this." Hope you have a sinless day too! | ||
| Max |
Rayna again, I need to make clear -- if only for those who may be lurking -- that you are sinless only by faith alone in Christ's sinlessness. There is no other recourse and no other alternative. There is only the sinlessness of Christ for us or eternal damnation and death. For "where these [Rayna and Max] have been forgiven, there is NO LONGER ANY SACRIFICE FOR SIN." NIV Hebrews 10:18, following after verse 14, which as we have seen says, "By one sacrifice he has made perfect [sinless!] forever those who are being made holy." The just [sinless!] shall live by faith [in the sinlessness of Christ] alone. This is EXACTLY what Martin Luther was saying! Blessings to you always, Rayna! | ||
| Rayna |
I think I have figured out the difference in what we believe. Here is what I believe: Righteousness By Faith means the imputed righteousness of Christ ALONE, perfect, unblemished, sinless, spotless, given to the believer that believes God's word that His salvation is finished in Him. This righteousness is imputed to us all our life before God. This we accept by faith and God declares us righteous only for the sake of Jesus. Our sins are not imputed to us because of the forgiveness of all our sins at Calvary, and because of the mercy and grace of God. This is the gospel which is to given to the whole world. The same gospel that was taught by Martin Luther during the Reformation period. This is the only way for man to be justified before God and declared righteous. Jesus is a free gift to us, that we only receive by faith. I also believe that man is sinfully depraved. We are born with a sinful nature and it permeates all we do even the good we do. But our sinfulness is not imputed to us for the sake of Jesus. Our works contribute nothing to our justification before God. The Bible plainly states that "If Abraham was justified by his works, he has whereof to glory, but not before God." ( This means by the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.) I believe that is in Romans 4: 2 Besides our works with the help of the Holy Spirit are sinful because of our sinful nature, but God accepts them as thank offerings and praise for the wonderful gift of Jesus to our world. Our sinfulness is not imputed to us before God, the Bible makes that plain in Romans 4. On earth it is difficult to tell the true from the false, as our works or fruits can be counterfeited. Not everyone that looks like a Christian is a Christian. Believe me, I have definitely found that out. We should be able to tell, but we cannot see the heart. Only God can see the heart, so we can only go by what we see and hear. Eventually though, the persons true colors come out, but it may take years. I do listen to their testimony and see if it is of Jesus or their changed lives, which are actually still sinful before God. Our works by the Holy Spirit ARE NOT the gospel or the righteousness of faith. The gospel and the righteousness of faith are complete, and nothing can be added. The work of the Holy Spirit is never complete in our lives. The Holy Spirit helps us battle with our sinful nature and is our comforter. The Holy Spirit also reveals unto us the true gospel of Jesus and the things that are freely given to us of God. The Spirit searches the deep things of God. You can find this in 1 Corinthians. The Holy Spirit does not speak of Himself, but speaks of Jesus. In 1 Corinthians it states that we preach the "cross of Christ". "He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." We do not preach ourselves. I cannot glory in my works for Jesus before others. I do not set myself up as an example, because I can fall. I only point others to Jesus and the truth of the gospel, the completed work of Jesus for the human race. I confess that I am a sinner just like everyone else and must depend on God's mercy and grace given to me in Jesus. I do believe we are to battle with our sinful nature with the help of the Holy Spirit, and the fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, but even these are not examplified in our lives as they should be. Besides the fruits of the Spirit, and our "good works" are a result of believing the completed work of Jesus for us. BUT THESE "GOOD WORKS" and the fruits of the Spirit ARE NOT THE GOSPEL OR THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF FAITH. I do not say, we live in open sin, but that we are sinners in God's sight always, no matter how many "good works" we do. We will always have sinful nature in this lifetime. We are only declared righteous because of our faith in God's word. But again, I say, I am honored to be a child of God by faith. I rejoice in this fact daily, and my life is dedicated to Him because of His wonderful love for me. Others may believe differently, but that is ok. I agree to disagree. | ||
| Max |
No need to disagree with that, Rayna. Blessings! | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Rayna;-), Who wrote that, you or me!?;-)) I've been saying essentially the same thing for quite a while. Thank you for making it so clear! Here is the place where the mules/us start to pull together;-)? I have said it before and now will say it again. You don't promote lawlessness! And I certainly don't promote grace plus anything but grace. There will always be a difference in the way people see things and one's emphasis may not be exactly the same as the other. As long as the goal is the same and that is spreading the gospel, accepted grace plus nothing = salvation we are on the same page! Some people are attracted to the gospel through the most amazing means and ALL our individual personalities are used by God to further His work/gospel. It is our priviledge to use what ever means that God provides us with to point ALL people directly to Him! There are no surprises to God! He knew before time that you and I would be former SDA's. He is the one that gave us our history and he is the one that gave us our eternal future. Let's praise God for all things. If I said anything to offend you, it was not intentional. What ever the case, I'm sorry if I did! I simply called it as I saw it. I hope you e-mail me sometime gogold@quixnet.net Upward and onward....Maryann |
