| Author | Message | ||
| Rayna |
As I listen to the sermons and songs of the so called "gospel" today, it is focused on the "changed life". This is a distraction from the true gospel in my opinion. One of the teachings of the Reformation was on the depravity of man. Man is now a wretched sinner, and always will be a sinner before God. Our only hope is in Jesus in heaven before God, and God's mercy extended to us in Jesus. Our focus needs to be on the "righteousness of Jesus in heaven" and on the depravity of man. Today this is not being done. Also at that time there were people going around trying to distract from the true gospel, by telling others they had the Holy Spirit and they were receiving visions from God. Martin Luther confronted these false teachers. This reminds me of Ellen G. White and SDA. The Reformation taught "Justification by Faith Alone". With this teaching the Reformation overthrew the teachings and superstitions of the RCC and persecution began. Reading the "History of the Reformation" by D'Aubigne has been very enlightening. To me, it sounds like history is repeating itself, except the Protestant churches are going back to RCC. I believe the Reformation teaching today on this site is being taught again. It is difficult to talk the people of this "new gospel", especially when one has to tell them that they are still sinners and their works combined with faith and love are still sinful. Just have to wait and see where this all leads. In the meantime, I am thankful for this site that the true "gospel" can be given to the world. By the way, one can purchase the "History of the Reformation" by D'Aubigne by Kregel.com under "used books". It is also available on CD. So thankful for God's love, mercy and grace given to me freely in Jesus. | ||
| Max |
Romans 6 (WE): 1 What shall we say then? Shall we keep on doing wrong things so that God will be more kind to us? 2 No, surely not! We died to our wrong ways and no longer live in them. 3 All of us have been baptised in water. This means we are joined to Christ Jesus. We were baptised into his death. Do you know that? 4 We were buried when he was buried because we were baptised into his death. Christ was raised from death by the wonderful power of the Father. So we also must live a new life. 5 Have we shared with Christ and died as he died? Then we shall share with him by rising from death as he arose. 6 We know this is true. The old person we used to be was nailed to the cross with him, so that our bodies which do wrong things would die. Then we will no longer be like slaves to the wrong things we used to do. 7 Anyone who has died no longer does wrong things. 8 If we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ was raised from death and will not die again. Death has no power over him any more. 10 He died. And he died once for all time, so that people would stop their wrong ways. But now he lives. And he lives for God. 11 So you also must think you are dead, and stop your wrong ways. And you must think you are living for God along with Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Do not let wrong things rule over your bodies that are going to die. Do not do the things your bodies want. 13 Do not use your bodies to do wrong things. But give yourselves to God like men who have been raised from death to life. Give your bodies to God and use them to do good things. 14 Wrong ways will not be your masters. The law does not rule over you now, but God's loving kindness rules over you. 15 What then? The law does not rule over us now. God's loving kindness rules over us. So, shall we do wrong things? No, never! 16 If you give yourselves to be slaves and obey your master, you are not free. You are his slaves. Do you not know this: you may be slaves to wrong things? But you will not live for ever. Or you may be slaves to obey God. Then you will be made good people and live with him. 17 You were at one time slaves to wrong things. But I praise God that you obeyed what your teachers taught you. And you obeyed because you wanted to obey. 18 You were made free from doing wrong things. You were made slaves to good things. 19 I speak the way people would think about such things, because your minds are weak. At one time you gave your bodies to be slaves to your unclean ways, and to do more and more wrong things. So now give your bodies to be slaves to doing what is right, and to being good. 20 When you were slaves to wrong things, you were free from doing good things. 21 You are now ashamed of those things. What good did they do you? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now you have been made free from wrong ways and you have been made God's slaves. You are made good and you will live for ever. 23 The reward that wrong ways give is to die. But the gift which God gives is to live for ever. Christ Jesus our Lord has done this for us. | ||
| Rayna |
I agree with you Max, we are no longer condemned by God, because of our belief in the true gospel of forgivenss and righteousness given to us freely in Jesus that we may be accepted of Him and become His child by faith. This is the gospel. I agree with your quotations from scripture, but this is not the gospel. Besides who wants to sin openly when we can look at sin now and see that the wages of sin is death. One may enjoy the "pleasures of sin" for a season, but one will reap death unless one turns from sin and repents. This is the fruit of the gospel, but this is not the gospel. We are sinners even though we are not committing open sin. We were born in sin, inherited from Adam. We have a sinful nature that permeates all we do, even the good. So we cannot become excited about our so called "good works" They are not accepted of God toward our justification before Him, as they are sinful. Jesus is our Righteousness before Him. I choose to serve God in this life because of His great mercy and kindness to me in the gift of His son Jesus, but I still see myself as a sinner only saved by God's free mercy given to me in Jesus. Sin is not a pleasure to me, as I know it will destroy me and I realize the price that was paid for my soul. Actually I guess I will never realize this price. It is beyond my comprehension. I choose to serve God because He loved me and saved me in Jesus and I am a child of His, looking forward to eternal life with Him, and all the faithful that have gone on before. What a day that will be to see Jesus and thank Him for giving His life for me, and His righteousness being imputed to me that I may have eternal life with Him. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Rayna, You are so right about "other" things detracting from the gospel. On the other hand, with many people, they need to "see" fruits of the Spirit in others. This is sooooooo important in some walks of life. Some people are naturally drawn to God, Bible, religious things etc. and are open to the "pure" and simple gospel from the Bible. Other people would desecrate the Bible in various vulgar ways if the mere word Bible was spoken (or Jesus, God, Salvation, Savior etc). These are the peole that are influenced by "fruits of the Spirit!" These "fruits of the Spirit" are not for our salvation but because of our salvation! These "fruits of the Spirit" on the other hand ARE for the salvation of others in that they show a changed life that is noticable to the world and can lead to the questions that lead to the gospel being presented to them. We, as Christians, are judged everyday by the world. Woe to us if we don't emphasize the wearing of our Christianity on our sleeves. It really makes one realize the responsibility of a Christian!! It's an awesome responsibility!! One that makes me quake the more I realize how wicked I am. Upward and onward.....Maryann | ||
| Rayna |
Another thought: "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Galatians 2:21 "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, "Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)" Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.....Romans 1:1-3 "For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in ght gospel of his Son,......Romans 1:9 "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man" For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ." Galatians 1:11,12 The gospel is the "Revelation of Jesus Christ". The gospel is powerful and after believing the gospel man is able to see the truth that God is a God of love and not a stern judge with mercy for the sinner. We serve Him because we love Him for His mercy to us in the gift of His Son Jesus. But we are still sinners. The fruit of the gospel in our lives does not justify us before God, as it is still sinful and an uncompleted work. God's work of justification for us in Jesus is a completed work. Jesus said "It is finished" We are accepted as sinners in Him and we are accepted into the family of God when we believe that God gave us His son that we may have eternal life. I think this is an awesome thought. We are justifiied before God by faith alone. This is the cry of the Reformation as they realized that mankind is sinful and can do nothing now or ever to be justified before God. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin" We are justified before God by a righteousness that He supplied, a spotless, perfect righteousness in Jesus. Our works are sinful and cannot contribute to this righteousness. It is complete perfect, and free to all that accept Jesus. It is a gift of God and all we can do is reach out and accept this gift and look at it in amazement and wonder at His wonderful love. Who does not want to serve a God like this?? In Christian love, Rayna | ||
| Rayna |
You know what Mary Ann? I also tremble and quake about not representing Jesus right in this world. But I also realize that I will be misrepresented, misunderstood, lied about, and falsly accused. This happened to Jesus you know. But I can say in my testimoney that Jesus is my Righteousness in heaven where noone can take it away. I will confess myself to be a sinner and not capable of representing Jesus as I should. I look at the lifes of the reformers, and it is unreal how they were blasphemed, and I also see that they are only human and made mistakes. At times their character lacked a lot, but they pointed others to Jesus admitting that they themselves were sinners, not perfect in this life. I believe that is our duty to represent Jesus but realize that we can and will fail to represent Him, but continually point others to Him in Heaven as our righteousness before God. And I know I can have my words misconstrued, but so be it. I do all I can to represent Him but I am human and I will fail. Don't look at me, and the Reformers stated that also. Look to God and Jesus and their mercy to the sinner, of which I am one. May God help us to teach the gospel and point others to Jesus, our only righteousness before God that is perfect sinless and spotless. He is the lamb of God, supplied by God. | ||
| Max |
Matthew 5: 11 "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. 13 "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men. 14 "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. --NIV | ||
| Rayna |
It is my opinion that not many people can see or understand this, as we want to include ourselves in our justification before God. But this is my belief. Everyone has a right to there own beliefs and I respect that, but I can find no peace other than in this message of "Righteousness by Faith" before God in Jesus. I do not believe that this includes any of our works in this life by the Holy Spirit. It is the righteousness of Jesus, Holy, Spotless,Sinless and Perfect only in Heaven. I believe in the depravity of man and his only hope of attaining eternal life is by faith in the Righteousness of Jesus. This is the message I will teach others. I cannot post anymore as I will be gone for the next week and not near a computer. May God bless you all thorough His mercy and grace given to us in Jesus. | ||
| Max |
1 John 2: 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments [the teachings of Jesus]. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments [the teachings of Jesus], is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. --KJV | ||
| Max |
Revelation (of Jesus Christ) 14:12-13 CEV: ^^God's people must learn to endure. They must also obey his commandments [the teachings of Jesus Christ in, for example, the Sermon on Mt. Blessings] and have faith in Jesus. Then I [John] heard a voice from heaven say, "Put this in writing. From now on, the Lord will bless everyone who has faith in him when they die." The Spirit answered, "Yes, they will rest from their hard work, and they will be rewarded for what they have done."^^ May God bless you on your trip, Rayna, and return you safely, Max of the Cross | ||
| Terry |
Rayna, I agree with you, and I am sure that most of us here do also. Those who look to works for verification of salvation will eventually be greatly disappointed. It is the Gospel of Jesus only...that we should look to...yes, justification by faith through His Grace! Amen! Hope you have a safe and good trip...looking forward to hearing more from you. *Smiles* terry@freedomforyou.com | ||
| Max |
Romans 3: 5 If our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8 Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved. --NIV | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, Somehow I think the meaning of, "fruits of the Spirit" are being mis-understood here. It is like they are being "skated" over? Again, "friuts of the Spirit" are "evidence" of salavation NOT a "means" of salvation. Terry said: "Those who look to works for verification of salvation will eventually be greatly disappointed." I'm not sure of who he is talking to here. But the tone of this thread seems to miss the importance of, us as Christians, showing the "evidence" of our salvation to the world. Not with swelled chest and boasting but with humble humility. Again, this is a thought that seems to make some on this forum want to regurgitate, but "fruits of the Spirit" are also there for us to be encouraged by! I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with being encouraged by winning a battle with a particular "bad habit" through the Holy Spirit. The next time I'm troubled by that same "bad habit," the Holy Spirit is there again to grab my hand and drag me away. Each time I'm troubled by this, it takes less and less of a "grab and drag" and more and more of a simple willing and happy holding of His hand and walking with the Holy Spirit! With that "track record" of walking with the Holy Spirit and Him doing a "work" in me, I'm encouraged!!!!!!!!!!!!;-)) I'm still just as wicked as before I was saved and those "friuts of the Spirit" have NO significance to my salvation. They are simply an evidence of my salvation and what is possible in a wicked sinners life if the Holy Spirit is allowed to "grab" you and lead you!!! What is difficult about this?????? When you have been miserable for years from a "bad habit" and tried to break it on your own, all to no avail and the Holy Spirit fixes it, you have peace. When I experience this "PEACE," I have what I call a "justifiable righteous pride in what the power of the Holy Spirit can do in a wicked sineer's life!!!!!!!! Now you, in this thread, have posted a lot of verses. Can you do a paragraph or two in your words of what all those verses mean to you???;-)) Thank you in advance. Maryann | ||
| Max |
John 15: 1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. 9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. --NIV | ||
| Max |
Romans 8: 1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. 5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. --NIV | ||
| Max |
John 8: 34 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. --NIV | ||
| Max |
Maryann, I believe the texts that I have brought forward in this thread fully support what you are saying. And I think your point of view and statement of faith is right on the mark. God bless your excellent, Christ-centered witness! | ||
| Max |
Galatians 5: 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. --NIV | ||
| Max |
Dear all, I cannot agree that the ^^sermons and songs of the so called "gospel" today [are] focused [only] on the "changed life".^^ The gospel is the gospel, and the changed life is the changed life. Certainly the church I attend every Friday night and Sunday morning doesn't confuse the two in our sermons and songs. Nor can I agree that singing and preaching about the "changed life" in Christ constitute ^^a distraction from the true gospel.^^ The changed life is an inevitable result of the gospel. To put it bluntly: No changed life, no gospel. The two are inextricably linked. Christ makes this linkage absolutely clear with his metaphor of the vine and the branches: "I [Jesus] am the vine, you [his followers, all Christians] are the branches." The grapes produced by this vine are the fruits of the Spirit or the Comforter, whom Christ sent after he ascended into heaven and sat down at the right hand of the Father. It seems that some on this web site, at least in the past, have wanted to sever this crucial relationship, cut the gospel (Christ the vine) from the branches (Christians). It just can't be done. For Jesus said, If the branches do not bear the fruit of the Spirit -- love, kindness, self-control, meekness, and so on -- then those unproductive branches will be cut off, thrown into the fire and burned. Sometimes the thief on the cross is brought forward as an example of a Christian in paradise who bore no fruit. Gentle friends, this particular branch didn't have the chance to bear fruit before he died. Except a single grape: his dying witness. Here is that beautiful passage from Luke 23:39-43 in the Contemporary English Version (CEV): ^^One of the criminals hanging there also insulted Jesus by saying, "Aren't you the Messiah? Save yourself and save us!" But the criminal told the first one off, "Don't you fear God? Aren't you getting the same punishment as this man? We got what was coming to us, but he didn't do anything wrong." Then he said to Jesus, "Remember me when you come into your power!" Jesus replied, "I promise that today you will be with me in paradise."^^ Now I want to tell you that that the seeds inside that one grape -- his precious witness -- have probably started as many grape vines growing around the world as any other, bar none. Now you may reply, "But this is the gospel." And you would of course be correct. But his witness, backed by Christ, is also a fruit of the spirit. Because you cannot separate the two. God bless you every one, Max of the Cross | ||
| Allenette |
Anyone on here want to start confessing the horrid things they do everyday that they need to flagilate themselves for? Everyone I've read about on here s eems pretty tame in their lives for condemning themselves to eternal death. No Hitlers showing up yet....tick tick tick.....ggg |
