| Author | Message | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Allenette again;), Hitler's sin's were no worse in God's eyes then mine!? Sin is sin to God and it all stinks. Hitler's sin's were zillions of times worse then mine though when you look at it from a human point of view. Make sense?.......Maryann | ||
| Max |
Hi Allenette, I appreciate your interest in this thread, but I've got no idea where you're going with what you just posted. Are you referring to the Reformation teaching of the total depravity of human beings? It's possible to misunderstand that, you know. In the first place, the teaching wasn't invented by the Reformation. The Reformation theologians just recovered it from Scripture, particularly the writings of Paul. For example, he writes in Romans, "There is none righteous, no not one." In the second place, "total depravity" doctrine has nothing to do with everybody being as depraved as Hitler -- or even Satan for that matter. Evil people, even demons, are NEVER the standard. Jesus Christ is always the only standard. In the third place, the "depravity teaching" means that unless you are, in and of yourself, as spotless as he, Jesus, was as God on Earth (Emmanuel), then you are totally depraved -- whether you're Paul or Mother Theresa or Eleanor Roosevelt or Billy Graham. The central idea is -- we're ALL totally depraved. In the fourth place, "total depravity" continues even after we accept Christ. Thus even Paul could say, "Oh wretched man that I am!" And he says it, not because he is looking at his sinful nature, but because he is looking at Christ. In the fifth place, the more the Christian looks at Christ, the more depraved he sees himself to be. Thus another paradox emerges: The farther from Christ you are, the more righteous you think you are; whereas the closer you are to him, the more depraved you seem to be. In the sixth place, the experience has nothing to do with a review of one's past evildoings (as the Adventists, for example, heretically have it). To the contrary, it has everything to do with dwelling on Christ's incarnation, birth, life, acts, teachings ("My commandments," such as "love your enemies" as opposed to those of Moses, such as circumcision and the Sabbath), death, rest in the tomb, resurrection from the dead, ascention to heaven, and sitting down at the right hand of the Father. In the seventh place, there is no excuse in the Christian life for dwelling on one's total depravity. That in itself is a sin. Paul didn't dwell on it. For Romans 8, a "fruits of the Spirit" chapter if ever there was one, is his answer to Romans 7, a "total depravity" chaper. Well, looks as though I've gone on longer than I thought I would. God bless you, Allenette, Max | ||
| Patti |
Rayna, I have been out of town for a week or so and was not able to post. You are very right. This confounding and confusion of Christ's redeeming work for us and our grateful response to His saving act was at the heart of the Reformation and, I believe, the norm rather than the exception in Christendom. I have been having a private conversation with a Catholic apologist. His claims are very interesting: 1. He says that most Protestants have no clue what the Reformational stand was; 2. That Catholics understand the views of the Reformers better than the Protestants do; 3. That in their inclusion of the changed life in salvation, Protestants are yet again giving homage to the authority of the Catholic church; 4. That the Calvinist positions alone are truly representative of the reformed stand on justification I am not saying that he is right on all of the points above, but he does know what he is talking about. He is well versed on the teachings of Luther and Calvin, and knows the differences between the Catholic and reformed views. And the bottom line is that SDAs, along with many other "Protestants" hold the same gospel that the RCC does. On another SDA forum, we have had a huge discussion including an SDA-turned-Catholic on this very issue. Conclusion? The SDAs and the Catholics are in virtual agreement on most of the important points of salvation, such as: 1. Denial of salvation by faith alone, 2. Justification is our title to heaven, sanctification is our fitness for heaven; 3. Defining grace as a regenerating force in the life of believers rather than the infinite mercy of God toward undeserving sinners. 5. Jesus was our Substitute in death; in life, He was mainly our Example. 6. Freewill ... to mention a few. Few Protestants today hold the same position as the Reformers, the same positions that Rayna mentioned above: 1. The depravity of man, 2. The sovereignty of God, 3. Election, 4. Salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, by the historical work of Christ alone Any time a person adds some human factor to the finished work of Jesus Christ for our salvation, then our focus is diverted to our own lives. This can only lead in one of two different directions: 1. Pride in our own "righteousnesses" or 2. Despair in our inability to please God The first option can only happen when a person truly does not see nor appreciate the perfection of Jesus Christ. And this person truly has no need of hearing of grace. He is doing ok. Anytime we think we are "doing ok" we need to take another look at spotless life of Jesus Christ, to reexamine His teachings. The second option is a much more realistic and honest reaction. We are very forthright with ourselves; we long to be Christlike, but we are lucid enough to realize that we are constantly falling short of the standard of perfection that Christ has set for us. We despair our sinful condition; we try harder, and we fail. The absolute standards of the law and the perfect example of Christ keep condemning us. We must either lower God's standards for us (which is one indicator of legalism) or delude ourselves into the first position, into being convinced that we are doing ok. But ANY discussion about our works is peripheral at best, because the Gospel is NOT about what we do; it is about Christ HAS DONE. Jesus Christ IS the Gospel. We had no part in His saving act for us. All He asks us to do, repeatedly, is to trust that His work on our behalf was sufficient. Why is it so hard for us to believe? | ||
| Allenette |
Max: I apologize. I posted this here instead of its "proper" if that was one, on the other thread we were yakking on....mea culpa. (ducking back into my real life...) ggg | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, I really want to have a conversation with you. I have to leave town tomorrow and don't know how much time I will have to talk. So, if I disappear for a while it will NOT because I don't want to talk to you. In regards to your above post you said: "But ANY discussion about our works is peripheral at best, because the Gospel is NOT about what we do; it is about Christ HAS DONE. Jesus Christ IS the Gospel." Did you happen to read the loooooooooooong post I made on the thread, "Witness in the Workplace?" I truly believe that the sterile environment I described in that post is evident in your very fiber and make-up. I may be wrong, but that is what I believe. Now, I really want to know something and I'm NOT being a smart aleck! When you are in an environment that verbally speaking the "gospel" as one would do in a church environment, family or friendly environment is NOT even a possibility, HOW DO YOU SHARE THE GOSPEL, LOVE OF GOD AND TRUE JOY? Remember, you can NOT talk about the Bible, Jesus or salvation without them first asking you. WHAT CAUSES A LOST SINNER TO ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR FAITH? WHAT CAUSES AN ANGRY LOST SINNER TO EVEN WANT TO TALK TO YOU???? IT JUST HAS TO BE THE "FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT" THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS ENABLED YOU TO PRODUCE BECAUSE OF YOUR JOY OF YOUR SALVATION! YOUR SALVATION THAT YOU HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH. YOUR SALVATION THAT WAS A GIFT OF GOD. YOUR SALVATION THAT WAS WHOLLY, TOTALLY, AND ABSOLUTELY SEPARATE FROM THE "FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT" NOW EVIDENT IN YOUR LIFE!! I am just beside myself in wonderment at how you have MISSED the context of what I have said in some recent post's!!!!! Your above 4 post's almost seem to be an attack rather then a discussion and I really would like to understand you and why you seem to be having the reaction you are having to this discussion;-)) I'm really looking forward to you addressing the above questions;-)) Upward and onward.........Maryann | ||
| Max |
Romans 8: 3 And so he[Christ] condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. 5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. 9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. 18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. 26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. --NIV | ||
| Max |
Allenette, Nothing to apologize for that I can see. Your post was right on target as far as I am concerned. Blessings | ||
| Rayna |
Well, I am in Dallas near a computer and am able to again post. What I realize about the New Testament is that it is divided into the law and the gospel. Any verse that demands us to do something is the law, and the verse that describes what God has done for us in Jesus is the gospel. The work of God in Jesus for us is complete and perfect and finished. Nothing can be added to it. This is the finished work that God has supplied and imputed to us that we may come into His presence in the Holy Place through Jesus and by which we are DECLARED perfect. This is not just at the beginning of the Christian experience but throughout our life here on earth. The work in our lives will never be complete in this life, as we only have the firstfruits of the Holy Spirit that battles with our sinful nature. Therefore all we do is still sinful in God's sight because of our sinful nature. But God does not impute our sins unto us after we have accepted Jesus and believe that God gave us His son to justify us before Him. Anything that demands us to do works in the New Testament is to drive us to Jesus and realize that God has already provided this perfection in Him for us. We only accept this by faith. Anyway, I still believe I am a sinner and Jesus only died for those that are sinners. Does not mean that I am living in open sin, just falling way short of the standard of any law. But I trust in the righteousness of Jesus knowing that God accepts me in the beloved. I believe the life of a Christian is a paradox. Always a sinner because of our sinful nature, but always a saint before God because of the imputed righteousness of Jesus. Thanks for your posts Patti, and you too Allenette. Max, your hard to understand, as I see we do not see alike. But that is ok, I respect your opinion. But I just stated my belief, and it will not change. I believe you are mixing the law and the gospel, which ends up in only confusion for the reader. | ||
| Rayna |
Another paradox. I do believe in doing good to all, but we fall short, way short. But this is not the gospel. Our works are only a result of believing the gospel, but we are not justified before God by the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. I believe in the book of John it speaks about the Holy Spirit. It states that the Holy Spirit does not speak of Himself, but testifies of Jesus. I know the fruits of the Spirit in our lives are the work of the Holy Spirit as we believe the gospel of the completed work done for us in Jesus before God in Heaven. And it also helps us to realize how short we fall of perfection, as we continue to battle with our sinful nature. Therefore our testimoney is of the completed work of Jesus, that we may be justified before God. We do not speak of ourselves. | ||
| Max |
Hi Rayna, Thanks for writing. What you have to say is always good to think about. Here are statements from your last two posts with which I agree completely: First, this: ^^The work of God in Jesus for us is complete and perfect and finished. Nothing can be added to it. This is the finished work that God has supplied and imputed to us that we may come into His presence in the Holy Place through Jesus and by which we are DECLARED perfect. This is not just at the beginning of the Christian experience but throughout our life here on earth. The work in our lives will never be complete in this life, as we only have the firstfruits of the Holy Spirit that battles with our sinful nature. Therefore all we do is still sinful in God's sight because of our sinful nature. But God does not impute our sins unto us after we have accepted Jesus and believe that God gave us His son to justify us before Him.^^ And also this: ^^I still believe I am a sinner and Jesus only died for those that are sinners. Does not mean that I am living in open sin, just falling way short of the standard of any law. But I trust in the righteousness of Jesus knowing that God accepts me in the beloved. I believe the life of a Christian is a paradox. Always a sinner because of our sinful nature, but always a saint before God because of the imputed righteousness of Jesus.^^ Iím having a bit of trouble, though, with this statement: ^^Any verse that demands us to do something is the law ....^^ First, you offered no scriptural support for it. Can you share some with me? Second, the New Testament is clear that the Old Testament law was meant to drive us to Jesus. And I have no trouble with the law as stated in the New Testament also driving me to Jesus. As a saved sinner, I am both perfectly sinless in Christ and still totally depraved. And I will remain that way until I see Christ "face to face." But the New Testament is full of admonitions and "tips" on how to grow in grace. Don't you think the Christian grows in grace by following these gentle reminders. Don't you marvel at Paul's changed life: how he went from murdering people to saving them? And look how Peter's life changed! Third, isnít Christís ěnew commandmentî to ělove one anotherî a description of how saved people living under grace should behave toward one another? Jesus said, ěIf you love me keep my commandments,î meaning his commandments given in the sermon on Mt. Blessings and elsewhere. As a saved person I simply take that ěloveî commandment as something I should do as a person who is perfectly sinless in Christ, not as something I should do in order to become perfectly sinless in Christ. Do you find something wrong with my interpretation? Glad to hear youíre safe in Dallas, Max | ||
| Max |
Hi again Rayna, I certainly do appreciate your gentle spirit. And I don't want to offend it with my questions and observations. And so I hope I can say this in the same spirit. I'm having difficulty also understanding this statement of yours: "Anything that demands us to do works in the New Testament is to drive us to Jesus and realize that God has already provided this perfection in Him for us." Is this the ONLY purpose for exhortations to do good which literally fill the pages of the New Testament? Take, for example, Christís gentle reminder, ěAnd if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward.î Matthew 10:42 NIV. If this is meant ONLY to drive us to Christ, when will the hot and thirsty ělittle oneî ever get her drink? Christís admonition here reminds me of James's similar admonition: 14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. James 2:14-19 NIV Now, Iím fully aware that here James uses the Greek word for ěfaithî (pistis) in a different sense from the way Paul usually uses it. As you know, James here uses ěfaithî as ěmental assent,î whereas Paul normally uses it as ěsaving experience/ relationshipî with Christ. Thus the devils do not believe in Paul's sense, but they do in James's. Still, that does not mean that Jamesí admonition is worthless, any more than Christ's gentle reminder is worthless. I think it has deep meaning, for it assumes that the person is ěworking outî (applying) his salvation in relationship with other human beings. How can one only have a vertical experience / relationship with God without also having a horizontal relationship with other human beings, both ěsavedî and ělostî? Doesnít the same Christ who says, ěCome unto me,î also say, ěGo ye into all the world?î To me this text from James means that one cannot ěcome untoî Christ without afterwards -- as a person perfectly sinless in Christ alone -- ěgoingî out into the world and doing good deeds. What does it mean to you? Blessings, Max | ||
| Max |
Hello Rayna yet again, I agree. It is true that the Holy Spirit does not testify of himself. But the "Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express." From Romans 8 NIV: 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. 26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. And so it seems to me that even though even my most sincere prayer remanis sinfull, God in his everlasting grace and mercy "purifies" it in ways that we do not understand, cannot fathom, and are as far above our understanding as the heavens are higher than the earth. Agree? | ||
| Patti |
Hi, Rayna, You are right again about the necessity to distinguish totally between Christ's work for us and the work of the Holy Spirit in us. Have you read the book, "EJ Waggoner: The Myth and the Man"? I have recently re-read it. (It is available in its entirety online now.) David McMahon does an excellent job of delineating the gospel and showing where Waggoner went astray. The problem with his theology, very much like Venden's, is that he included regeneration in righteousness by faith. It is only when we can make a clean break with the notion that anything that has to do with our salvation is dependent upon something that we DO, and rely upon the accomplished and perfect work of Jesus Christ ALONE that we can be truly free. We need NEVER try to evaluate our performance to judge our standing with God. In general, Protestants are painfully ignorant concerning the reasons for their existence. They know little about the Reformation or its fundamental causes, and they know even less about how their personal beliefs measure up to those of their forebears. Today, many, if not most, Protestants are Arminian in philosophy, and hold the very same stance on justification as the Catholic Church did during the Reformation. I have found Catholics to be much more educated on Protestant theology than Protestants themselves are. And they know that most Protestants are in agreement with them on this single greatest issue of the Reformation. Who has changed? [Hint: The Catholics still use the Canons of the Council of Trent (1562) to support their fundamental beliefs.] The Catholics have given no ground, but the Protestants, due to complacency, ignorance, or just indifference, have gravitated to a Roman gospel, one that includes man's regeneration in the salvation that comes of faith. What is wrong with this? 1. It is believer-centric and not Christ centered. It keeps the individual focused upon his own spiritual growth (or that of others) instead of upon the spotless Lamb of God. 2. Because humans become very frustrated when they can honestly know that they are falling short of God's glory, it lowers the standard of perfect obedience to something that the believer can actually produce. Focus is generally place upon the "Big Ten" or upon another rather short list of works that lie within the believer's grasp. The book of James is quoted quite often, but seldom in context. And seldom do they quote texts such as: "Whoever is guilty of the smallest point of the law is guilty of them all." or "Whoever places himself under the law is responsible for the entire law." (This would include ALL 630+ little rules. Plus all of the teachings of Jesus regarding thoughts and motives.) 3. Generally those who believe that our own personal righteousness is an integral part of our salvation place the emphasis on Christ being primarily our Example (which is rarely even mentioned in Scripture). If the substitutionary work of Christ is mentioned at all, it refers only to His death, and not to His perfect obedience which is imputed to all who believe in Him. (I have found this totally missing in the sermons of Vendon's that I have heard.) 4. Along with the idea that Christ is primarily our Example, comes a debasing of Christ Himself. (This is one area in which the Catholic church holds strict orthodoxy.) It is amazing and appalling to me that so many Protestants believe that Jesus Christ either had a sinful nature just like ours, or that He could have actually succombed to Satan. The divinity of Christ is downplayed, and His humanity is emphasized. 5. Salvation is never a certainty. If the believer is honest, then he will know that he continues to fall painfully short of our Perfect Standard--Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is our full salvation. Our testimony should not be to the works of our own hands, albeit aided by the Holy Spirit, but to the singular, once-for-all, perfect, all-sufficient work of Jesus Christ. If we testify to our changed lives we are not witnessing of Jesus, we are boasting of our own works even if we "give God the glory," just as the Pharisee did. Paul "determined to know nothing among them save Jesus Christ and Him crucified." The disciples on the Day of Pentecost, filled with the Holy Spirit, did not testify to their changed lives but to the crucified and risen Savior. We can do no better than to present Jesus Christ, our righteousness, to a world who is hungering and thirsting for it. Looking forward to hearing more from you, Rayna. And have a safe trip. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Maryann |
Ohhhhhhh Sheeeeeeese you guyz!, Just got home and have spent the last while catching up on the new post's! Hmmmmm, tomorrow will be another day!;-)) I did have a great study day Sat. in the DMV for several hours. Can hardly wait to share! Shake, shake, shake.........Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Guys, Just had to toss out another thought I came across today. It's "old hat" to all of us, but, I never really thought of it how I thought of it today. Check out 1 Cor 11:23-34. Since I don't feel like typing out the verses, you read them and I'll tell you what they mean to me. First Jesus explains what the "eating and drinking" is. The bread is "My" body for you. The cup is the "new covenant" in "My" blood. Do these things in rememberance of Me. When these things are done, we are proclaiming His death till His return. Now comes the warning! If you eat or drink in an un-worthy manner, YOU ARE IN DEEP MUD! Next is the suggestion/command of how to keep out of deep mud! EXAMINE YOUR SELF!!!!! Infact you are instructed to not only examine yourself, you are instructed to JUDGE YOURSELF RIGHTLY!! Infact, I count the use of "judge," "judgement," "judged" 6 times in these verses. Maybe there is an emphasis on "judge" for a reason! Now, if'n you don't do a good job of judging yourself what happens? Big DEEP mud....you are guilty of having the body and blood of the LORD/ GOD/JESUS on your head. Now, who was Jesus talking to? Believers or un-believers???? And who are usually in Church's now-a-days when communion is served? Believers/Christians!! Obviously, the Chrisians a perfect in God's sight because they are saved, wretched people! Sooo, what are they examining and judging themselves about? Fruits of the Spirit are an un-deniable part of ANY Christians life! Again, no, AGAIN!, "fruits of the Spirit" are NOT demonstrated to be saved, they are demonstrated BECAUSE we are saved. AND, they are not to be used as something to arrogantly boast about either! When you cook a turkey and have a themometer stuck deep in it's flesh, it is NOT there to COOK the turkey!! It is there to tell you what is going on, on the inside of the turkey! Are you guys afraid to use a thermometer on a turkey? Noooooooo! Well, don't be afraid to use the "fruits of the Spirit" to let you know what is going on on the inside of you!!!! Now, that is as close as I will come to calling "us" a bunch of turkey's tonight! Upward and onward.......Maryann | ||
| Max |
Good morning Maryann! Welcome! Good to have you back. If you expect people to look up 1 Corinthians 11:23-34 because you don't feel like typing it out, gooooooooooood luck! Instead of typing out Scripture, I suggest that you go to http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible? where there is an e-Bible referencing system and an exhaustive e-concordance to six or seven e-versions. Instead of typing out the e-texts the system e-generates, you can e-copy them there and e-paste them here. | ||
| Max |
Maryann again, As an example, I used the Bible Gateway to reference the text you didn't feel like typing out and got this: 1 Corinthians 11: 23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32 When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world. 33 So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for each other. 34 If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment. And when I come I will give further directions. --NIV | ||
| Max |
Maryann a third time this morning, I just finished reading the rest of your post and think you did an excellent job of bringing to bear the specific truth in that passage on our ongoing discussions of grace in the lives of believers. I think you got it right. Thank you, and megablessings on you, Max of the Cross | ||
| Patti |
Maryann: Now comes the warning! If you eat or drink in an un-worthy manner, YOU ARE IN DEEP MUD! Patti: Who has ever partaken of the bread or the cup WORTHILY? | ||
| Patti |
Maryann: EXAMINE YOUR SELF!!!!! Patti: Whenever a person brought a sin offering to the priest, the priest had to do an examination. Now exactly what did the priest examine? Did he examine the person requesting the sin offering to make sure he was truly repentent and that he was not taking advantage of the grace of God? Did he cross-examine him to ascertain that he truly meant to mend his ways? NO. The priest examined the LAMB to make sure it was spotless. Maryann, we are not to examine ourselves; our destiny is not based upon whether we are worthy or not (We are not. That is a given.) Our hope is always the spotlessness of the Lamb of God. We are saved because Jesus is worthy, and we never progress beyond total dependence upon His vicarious work for us. Jesus is our full salvation, justification, sanctification, glorification: "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." When someone tells me to examine myself, I know that they, unwittingly or otherwise, are trying to throw me back into the clutches of Ellenology and SDA insecurity. No, thank you. Jesus Christ is my full salvation. On His merits, and on them only, rests my hope. Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. Christ is my righteousness. God bless, Grace and peace, Patti |
