| Author | Message | ||
| Bruce H |
Steve gave the idea to me so here are a few. | ||
| Bruce H |
Front page of Adventist Review (NADE) Sept. 1998 ---"The Sabbath comes to Sanchez, Arizona"--- What about Jesus Christ??? | ||
| Bruce H |
Here is a response to an article of mine that was in Adventist Today March-April 1998 Vol. 6, no2 The response was in Adventist Today July-August 1998 Vol. 6, No.4 "More Ellen White and Truth" When I joined the church one of the first books I read was F.D. Nichol's Ellen White and Her Critics. There I learned about her copying and other issues of how she composed her works. This introduction to E.G. White stood me well when I came into contact with text-critical approaches to the New Testament, and later the Old Testament. Later as a seminary student in the early 80's I was not fazed by the revelations of Numbers and Rea, unlike many around me who never heard such things (and never read Nichol). To Bruce Heinrich I would say, If you were to read some of the critical material on the Bible you would find it as disturbing as what you have read about E.G. White. If previously you were blissfully ignorant of the issues surrounding White's writings, perhaps you are now living in blissful ignorance of the issues surrounding the Bible. They are not much different. +++++++ ++++++ Madison Wisconsin Adventist are always trying to tear down the Bible. I have a couple of people who have given me text showing that the Bible or word of God is in error. I have been abel to shoot every one of them down, somtimes it takes a little bit of work and research. The reason Adventist tear down the word of God is to uplift there false prophet Ellen White. The Morman however are even better at it they have to be because they have cannonized there false prophet. Bruce Heinrich BH | ||
| Steve |
Although I had always given Mormons a hard time, I realize that they are perhaps more honest than the SDAs. Mormons admit that they only accept the ". . . Bible, insofar as it is translated correctly." (From their Statements of Faith.) Of course, this means where it doesn't agree with Mormon doctrine, it has been translated incorrectly. However, we SDAs have been more crafty and deceptive. As Bruce points out above, we discredit the Bible in subtle ways. Recently, in the meetings I've been attending with one of my pastors on Thursday nights, he went over the doctrine of inspiration. He actually demonstratred (in a faulty way, I believe) that the inspiration that Bible writers were given is NO DIFFERENT from the inspiration that you and I have when we are "inspired" in one way or another. He said that we do a disservice to God by claiming that the Bible writers were inspired in some other way. That really bothers me. I have a very high view of scripture. When it says something, I tend to believe it. I can't believe that when a human being is inspired that that is equivalent to the inspiration that Bible writers received. After all, after we inspire, we usually expire. The Bible writings have never expired. Steve | ||
| Bruce H |
Here is one from Samuele Bacchiocchi in his book "The Sabbath under Crossfire" Page 105-106 According to Tkach, the Old Covenant did not work because it was based "on a package of Laws" that "could not cleanse a guilty conscience." "On the other hand, the New Covenant works because it is based on the blood of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart. "The Holy Spirit changes their (Believers) hearts. The peopl are transformed, and they grow more and more like Christ.... The New Covenant affects our innermost being. The blood of Jesus Christ changes us.... His sacrifice santifies us, making us Holy, sets us aside for a holy purpose. Does this mean that the blood of Christ has some kind of magic power to automatically change people, whether or not they are willing to obey God's commandments? To attribute such magic power to the Spirit and/or to Christ's blood reminds one of the magic power the Jews attributed to the Law. Isn't this another form of legalism? Does the atoning sacrifice of Christ and the ministry of the Holy Spirit render obedience to God's commandments unnecessary or possible? It really saddens me to know how much many of the Adeventist are missing. Bruce Heinrich Bh are missing | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Untitled newsletter from SDA Pastor Jan Marcussen, author of National Sunday Law (Box 68, Thompsonville, IL 62890, phone 618.627.2357, website http://www.hcis.net/organizations/churches/amazingtruth), May 2000, page 5. I just now received a fax. Here it is [reproduced in newsletter]: Eternal Gospel, April 27, 2000. ìPrepare to Meet Thy God.î Urgent. Fax Transmittal Form. To: Pastor J. Marcussen. From: Eternal Gospel Church of SDA It is with sadness that we report that Judge James L. King has upheld the Trademark Law and has ruled against the Eternal Gospel Church, and for the General Conference. He ruled that the GC has exclusive rights to the goods and services for the name Seventh-day Adventist, and SDA. In his 18 page ruling the judge stated that in the end, this case was about a trademark infringement and that the Eternal Gospel Church was ìcausing great damageî by using that name. At this time, we are not aware what the immediate ramifications will be, but we are confident that this case will be appealed if the Lord wills. We do want to say that the media attention to this trial has been vast and it may be possible that the media will do for us free what we have had to pay for in the ads that have appeared in many national newspapers. Your prayers, earnest fasting and support are needed now more than ever to show our mighty Warrior, Jesus Christ, that we are indeed ready and willing to take His holy name to the highest tribunal, if need be. We shall remain His vessels regardless of what He makes us drink. The Eternal Gospel Church of Seventh-day Adventists. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ END FAX TRANSMITTAL INFORMATION BEGIN COMMENTARY BY MARCUSSEN +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ How DO you feel about this? Are you shocked? I handed this to Sweet Vennita [Marcussenís wife], and she read it. I said to her, ìSomeone must have gotten to the judge. He is totally different now than he was in the court-room. He is Roman Catholic. Some cardinal or someone must have really gotten to himî I just hung up from talking with Pastor Perez. From my notes of our conversation, Iíll tell you what he said to me. 1) After he answered, the first thing that I said to him was that I was shocked at this because this is totally different than what the judge was talking like in the courtroom. He said, ìItís worse than that my brother. In his 18 page ruling, he said that we cannot even conduct services or use SDA books!î When I heard that, I was shocked beyond measure, because never in the history of the world since the papal dark ages do I know of any such dark oppression as not being able to have religious services using the name God gave you, or even us your own religious books ñ except maybe in communist China. The U.S. Constitution guarantees these things. 2) Pastor Perez said, ìOur attorney said that the judge has thrown the constitution in the garbage.î It brought to my mind the inspired statement ìOur nation will disconnect herself fully form righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every princip0le of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near.î 5T 451. More than every, I can see that we need to reach the people with Godís mighty 3 angelsí messages, and do it now! 3) Pastor Perez said that in the Judgeís 18 page ruling, the use of the name seemed to be least mentioned by the judge, but said that he said that the mother [SDA] church took on the Eternal Gospel SDA church for refusing to stop giving messages against Rome, and that that thought was underscored. 4) Pastor Perez said that today he was talking with the reporter from the Associated Press, And told him that in less than one week, the principles of our Constitution have been repudiated in two cases. This case is one of those two. He said that Judge King has set himself above the Constitution. He said to me, ìCan you believe this! Please pray, and ask the people to pray.î I said, ìI will.î 5) He said that the judge has given 10 days to appeal this decision. {If it is not appealed in 10 days, the dear people who are caught meeting in that church using SDA books, will be breaking the law, and could be arrested. Can those who are arrested go to jail? Are we still in America? This canít be happening now can it? Is this a dream? Are we in the end of the world? Is the Son of God going to appear soon in the sky? 6) Pastor Perez said that in his ruling, Judge King said that ìSeventh-day Adventist, and ìSDAî can be trademarked as a ìbusiness.î When he said that, I said, ìThe Judge said right in the courtroom the words, ëItís a faith.í Heís contradicting himself. It seems that someone has gotten to him.î [Omitting EGW quote.] But I said, ìGod is only allowing this for His glory!î He has already won, and God has no problems. I will also say that this made Sweet Vennita and me feel sober. Itís not a laughing matter. I hope that it makes you sober too. I pray that all Godís people will wake up and come into line with King Jesus ñ because we are in the great controversy right now, and it is fast coming to a blazing close. Soon, Godís people will know that not only are things like this real, but they will know that jail is real. The woods are real. The death sentence is real. The Sunday law will be real. Rome is real. The devil is real. God is real. 7) Pastor Perez said, ìIf we appeal it within 10 days, the judgeís ruling will be null and void during the time of the appeal. Our lawyers are appealing it within 10 days.î He said that the Jewish defense attorney said that any appeals court will see that the judge is going by his religious feelings {as a Roman Catholic ñ prominently mentioning Roman Catholicism in this ruling}. 8) Pastor Perez also said that his attorney is going to make two appeals. One is Against the judgeís ruling, and the other is against the illegal trademarking of a church name in the first place. He said, ìIt is in print that when the General Conference men trademarked the name SDA in 1981, the trademark office asked them if anyone else was using the name ëSeventh-day Adventist,í and they said ëNo.í But they knew very will that the SDA reform movement and others were using the name SDA. The appeals court is going to find out that the General Conference men lied to the trademark office, and got the name trademarked under false pretenses.î Oh friend, I pray that our kind Father may be glorified, and that He will help us to reach precious souls in this crisis hour. Listen: [Omitting loooooooooong EGW quote.] ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ END MARCUSSEN NEWSLETTER QUOTE ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [Excerpted on ground that news-story copyright expires after three days.] | ||
| jtree |
Why did Her Prophecies Failed? "Thus the work was hindered, and the world was left in darkness. Had the whole Adventist body united upon the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, how widely different would have been our history." SELECTED MESSAGES, Book 1, p. 299 She blamed it on the Seventh-day Adventist church members! | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Commenting on Jtree's post: EGW was trying to manipulate God. When God didn't tumble to her predictions (I wouldn't call them prophecies), she was unable to accept the fact that God does have a choice. For her it's simple: she predicts, God acts. And when God doesn't act, all heck breaks loose in her mind. It can't be that God is DISOBEDIENT to her commands! Never! Why, who then to blame? Herself? Impossible! Idea! Ah, yes, the Adventist people. What suckers! They'll fall for anything! She reminds me of a story I posted on the Humor Discussion: I'll repost it here, since it seems to fit: A "profitess" once thought to treat the Lord like a giant vending machine -- "the Great Green Money Machine" of Simon and Garfunkle fame. "Dear Father in heaven," She prayed, "is it not so that a million years to you is just like a single second to me?" "Yes, my daughter," agreed our Father. "Then is not also a million dollars to me just like a single penny to you?" "Indeed, so. What's on your mind?" "God," the "profitess" prayed earnestly, sweat standing out in beads on her forehead, "could I have just one of your pennies?" "Sure," replied God, "just a second." Nuf sed, Jude | ||
| Plain Patti |
One of the most "insight"ful quotations I can remember from my younger days as an SDA was in the youth paper, Insight Magazine. (Is it still in existence? It was quite controversial when it first came out.) Anyway here is the quote: "You better watch out, You better not cry, You better not pout, I'm telling you why: Jesus Christ is coming again." Ain't it the truth? Doesn't modern Christianity have a Santa Claus view of Christ? | ||
| Delstar |
That's totally amazing Plain Patti. I had never read that quote nor heard it from anyone else but it's EXACTLY the conclusion to which I came while making a determination as to what I believed... right down to the exact terminology. I have since continued to proclaim that we have believed in a 'Santa Claus religion'. But then why not? On other forums (SDA) I have presented the words of Jesus and been told that they were likened to 'the three little pigs', 'brer rabbit', etc. I could not believe my eyes....they would actually SAY that about the words of my Lord and Master? Then I began to wonder what other words of Jesus could not be trusted. How shameful that I have believed in such warped religiosity. Jesus Is Enough | ||
| Jtree |
Here is one found on a yahoo club, where the debate is with the MAJORITY: -BC- 10MR -TI- Manuscript Releases Volume Ten -CN- 784 -CT- The Waymark Doctrines are to be Preserved -PR- 01 -PG- 48 -TEXT- I am filled with sorrow because statements made under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and designed by God to be a great blessing to His people, to guard them against the seducing sentiments of Satan, ARE WOVEN IN WITH SPIRITUALISTIC VIEWS, and are thus made to testify to falsehoods of Satan's own creating. How can I say to our people, Harmonize with those who advocate these wrong sentiments? How can I hold my peace, and say, Unify? God gives me the message, BEWARE OF THE LEAVEN OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN DESTROYING THE FAITH OF SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS. There are those to whom I fear to write personally. God says, Beware of the leaven of those who have stepped off the platform of truth. Those who use my writings, given me by God, to build themselves up in sophistry and deceptive theories, steal that which was given to establish souls in the sanctification of the truth, and use it to testify to theories against which I am bidden to warn our people. Beware of the leaven that some who have lost their connection with God will introduce, declaring their theories to be in harmony with that which Sister White has written. -END- -BC- 2MCP -TI- Mind, Character, and Personality Volume 2 -CN- 79 -CT- Hypnotism and its Dangers -PR- 03 -PG- 718 -TEXT- <SB Do Not Voice Satan's Theories. <EB--I have been shown that WE ARE NOT TO ENTER INTO CONTROVERSY OVER THESE SPIRITUALISTIC THEORIES, because such controversy will only confuse minds. THESE THINGS ARE NOT TO BE BROUGHT INTO OUR MEETINGS. WE ARE NOT TO LABOR TO REFUTE THEM. If our ministers and teachers give themselves to study of these erroneous theories, some will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. It is not the work of the gospel minister to voice Satan's theories. Go steadily forward, building up the old waste places and restoring the foundations of many generations. Present the truth, sacred, sanctifying truth, and LET THE SEDUCING THEORIES OF THE ENEMY ALONE. GIVE HIM NO GROUND ON WHICH TO PLANT THE SEEDS OF THESE THEORIES. I was warned to ENTER INTO NO CONTROVERSY over these matters. Let not our ministers or teachers or students give their lips to the repeating of the enemy's sophistry.--Lt 175, 1904. <SI 719 <EI And this is one of those of that club, that states this: I think itís about time we call the administrator and remove Jtree before he plants any more seeds of error. We cannot afford any more time given to the enemy to confuse and cast doubt to the minds of our brethren and sisters here in our group. Such things should not be permitted as we see under the pen of inspiration. We see that Jtree has no intention of bringing fruits meet for repentance but come to bring in confusing theories and condemnation. These senseless arguments are fruitless. Weíve tried to be as respectful, courteous, and patient with you. But we can see that youíre so caught up with your desire to refute that which cannot be refuted, thus making all your efforts and labors in vain. We make no apologies for the word of God and you should ask God for repentance, for you lack quite a large bit of character. Though out your stay here you havenít even uplifted the lovely Jesus! Rather you have uplifted yourself by repeatedly attempting to refute every persons mail. Jesus was right, by their fruits ye shall know them. I say to you, repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. | ||
| Max |
Proof, JTree, that you are Jeremiah pointing the finger of God! Bless your efforts. --Max of the Cross | ||
| Shereen |
I don't get it!?!?! I am not a highly educated person, but I am not without some post secondary education. I pray for wisdom and ask God to sift through all the garbage and project a clear picture to me. I am in the process of this at the moment. What I really don't get, and this is not easy, but how in the world can SDA's go by what EGW said when it has been proven that she is a false prophet. *Shereen just shakes her head* I know one thing for sure, I have only started to really understand but no matter where I go, it will never be back to SDAism. I can't for the life of me go back to something that God has opened my eyes to as being wrong and very deceitful. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Shereen, Hey!! It's great to see you on a regular thread talking!;-)) Keep asking questions. That's the best way to get answers. Asking questions in no way is limited to asking humanoids! And you do seem to be asking questions to God. That's awesome. I'll post something about what happened to my Mom later. You will probably find it interesting. What generatiom SDA were you? I was a 3rd. Maryann | ||
| Lorinc |
Hi Shereen, I can totally relate to what you wrote; sounds like we may be at similar stages of our journeys. To answer your point about "it has been proven...", I would say that it has *not* been proven to the average Adventist in the pew -- but not for lack of evidence! A couple of things come into play: (1) Until recently (with the rise in use of the Internet), it was a lot harder to actually get your hands on material about Ellen White, other than the stuff at the ABC's. I had heard about Rea's book, "The White Lie," but had no clue how to get one. When I found Dirk Andersen's website (www.ellenwhite.org), my reaction was, "Thank God -- I'm not the only one who believes this!" (2) As my mother-in-law says, "One convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." Most people find it very hard to hold their belief system up and examine it rationally. One dear churchmember told us in Sabbath School about how a family member had given him a book by Dudley Canright (an early "Former Adventist"). This member *proudly* announced, "I threw that thing in the trash without even looking at it!" Actually being willing to examine your beliefs, and surrender them if necessary in pursuit of truth, is a rare gift, I'm coming to realize. Praise God that He has led you, and the others on this forum, into a greater knowledge of His truth! :-) - Lorin | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Shereen, Hey!! It's great to see you on a regular thread talking!;-)) Keep asking questions. That's the best way to get answers. Asking questions in no way is limited to asking humanoids! And you do seem to be asking questions to God. That's awesome. I'll post something about what happened to my Mom later. You will probably find it interesting. What generatiom SDA were you? I was a 3rd. Maryann | ||
| Max |
Shereen, You wrote, ^^How in the world can SDA's go by what EGW said when it has been proven that she is a false prophet?^^ They are bewitched (read Galatians 3). Thus they can't see that "it has been proven that she is a false prophet." As Jesus pointed out, one must have eyes in order to see. Max of the Cross | ||
| Shereen |
Maryann, I was baptised SDA in 1977 and have brought two of my three children up SDA. I was very lucky to have become SDA when I did as it saved me from a horrible road I was travelling. I made some good friends, most of whom have left me now that I don't attend church, and I got a wonderful understanding of Jesus through the church. I never did go in for studying EGW much and discarded most of what was taught about her but in the same breath, was totally mislead anyway. I am thankful for what the church has done for me but really hurt at the deception of those who really knew. I do believe alot of my friends still in the church are sincere and seem to have blinders on. I have been away from the church for several years and have just lately been able to look into the bible with an open mind, although my mind is still coloured by Adventism. The Sabbath, state of the dead, tithing etc. are bogging me down but I am praying and studying and praying some more. I feel a huge weight is off my shoulders now that I can see better but am also very afraid that my good feelings may be coming from satan as a way to keep me away from God. I am afraid, oh so afraid, that I am being mislead by satan and feel like crying alot. Even though I have not been in Church physically, I was spritually and emotionally. I think of one thing,'even the very elect will be deceived', I sure hope I am not being deceived now. I pray and get confused. Oh well, k sera sera. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Shereen, It seems that we are probably about the same age. In March of 1976 when I was 18, I left all religion. Your story is very interesting. God uses all means to accomplish His work in us. If it took getting you into SDAism as a deterant to an awful road, praise God. For me, SDAism gave me such a firm foundation in right and wrong that it was that foundation from craddle roll up that controlled me as a, "running from God," adult. All things in SDAism are not errant. There is a lot of good there. We forget that sometimes. Adventism is the heritage of many here and when we find that we are lied to, we toss everything, including our heritage in anger. That is why I started the thread, "Memory Lane, We All Have One." Remember the good times. Gleen the good that you learned from SDAism and re-capture your heritage. Letting anger from the deceit through the generations eat on us just stunts our growth and keeps us with blinders on. Instead of "WHITE" colored blinders, they are now "DARK" and that dark bitterness poisons our every breath and thought. Thank you for your bright smile when you said: "I was very lucky to have become SDA when I did as it saved me from a horrible road I was travelling. I made some good friends, most of whom have left me now that I don't attend church, and I got a wonderful understanding of Jesus through the church." I'll get to my Mom's story later:-) Don't lose sight of the goal. Maryann | ||
| Lorinc |
Hi Shereen, I can feel your struggle and uncertainty coming through in your postings -- hang in there, though!You're praying and studying -- keep at it! I can relate to your uncertainties -- I could make a very good case for *either* position on the state of the dead, right now. And there are several mainstream theologians who are coming pretty close to agreeing with the concept of the final destruction of the wicked, versus eternal life in hell. So if you're confused and undecided, you're in good company! :-) One thing that's been helpful to me has been the realization that many of the things we thought were "big deals" just aren't! I don't *have* to be sure what happens to me when I die, for example. And whether there's a pre-tribulation rapture, or whether we live through the end times, is also open to interpetation (personally, I'm *not* a rapturist, but hey, if it happens, that will be a pleasant surprise!) Thank God, I don't have to make sense of all of it -- I just have to trust Jesus. Like Maryann said, "Don't lose sight of the goal." When I've gotten confused and frustrated by all the different interpretations people put on different passages of scripture, it's helped me to hearken back to an old hymn (I must be in a hymn-ish mood today): Turn your eyes upon Jesus, Look full in His wonderful face, And the things of earth will grow strangely dim In the light of His glory and grace! Praying that His Spirit will help bring you peace, Lorin |
