DEAR ADVENTIST FRIENDS: Is your WATER... Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 1 » DEAR ADVENTIST FRIENDS: Is your WATER TAINTED? « Previous Next »

Author Message
Chyna
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 5:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

here's the short of it:

ex adventist boyfriend, feeling deceived, published a webpage testimony and scriptural support, sent to ex and family and friends under the burden of God, prayed an entire day, and now, just waiting in faith.

here's what i think. I was talking to Doreen from New Zealand who has also had personal experience with Adventists, she is a missionary. anyway, both of us kept saying "They are such nice people." I talked to her about the hesitancy of Christians to approach Adventists or even tackle Adventism. She was of the opinion that it seemed like a large thing to tackle and there are Christians in Adventism also so that made it harder.

this is what I realized. your water can be 99% pure and 1% tainted, and it is still HARMFUL for you to drink it. that's why all the adventists that have since come out of Adventism feel 100% better because they are now drinking the pure water of Salvation and of the word, not 50% salvation 50% EGW.

blessing on everyone :)
i saw a rainbow today

Chyna
Chyna
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 5:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

er, percentiles are estimations based on the GC's continual and recent affirmations of EGW.
Max
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 8:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Chyna,

I have on my desk this moment the October
2000 issue of MINISTRY. This is the SDA
"International Journal for Pastors."

Interestingly enough, the cover story is "Ellen
White, Theologian?" by retired heavyweight
pulpit-pounder Walter M. Booth, Ph.D.

This in the GC-run publication is no mere
happenstance, for there is a "great debate"
going on among Adventist clergy about EGW
and there are a great many maverick pastors
out there who are not "toeing the line" on
official EGW doctrine. Thus the perceived
need for this "emphasis" on EGW in
MINISTRY.

To give you sufficient clue, here is the article's
opening:

^^It is becoming increasingly common in
Seventh-day Adventist circles to think of Ellen
White as an inspired and inspiring writer,
popular lecturer, wife, and mother, but not as a
theologian.

^^I would like to adress this tendency,
expressing my conviction that ELLEN WHITE
WAS AN OUTSTANDING THEOLOGIAN^^
(emphasis mine).

Nuff sed?

Max of the Cross
Palorenz
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 10:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max and all,

But why are Adventists doing this, putting more faith in EG White? They seem to me to be setting themselves up for a huge fall. The amount of readily available evidence about who she really was is overwhelming. Aren't they listening?

Anyone have any ideas?


Paul
Max
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Paul,

Your question is one I'm beginning to hear
more and more. And there is a very simple
answer.

Adventists are bewitched. Witness Galatians
3:1-5 NIV:

^^
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched
you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was
clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you:
Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law,
or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the
Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by
human effort?
4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it
really was for nothing?
5 Does God give you his Spirit and work
miracles among you because you observe the
law, or because you believe what you heard?
^^

Now think of the young Ellen Gould Harmon,
James White, and other early SDA "pioneers"
after their "great disappointment" of 1844.

They did exactly what the Galatians did.
Instead of accepting the gospel as it was
being preached in the churches at that time
(Ellen was a member of the Methodist
church), they were "bewitched" back into
"observing the law" rather than "believing what
you heard" by the Holy Spirit.

This to me is not one of the great mysteries of
all ages. It's something that has been going
on since the time of the apostles.

Max of the Cross
Max
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 1:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Paul again,

I think you're absolutely right: Adventists -- at
least in North America -- "seem to be setting
themselves up for a huge fall."

I think you are also right about the amount of
evidence building up against EGW's claims in
books, on the Internet and elsewhere. It is
becoming overwhelming. And the avalanche
is only going to increase.

I think your antenna has tuned in on exactly the
right frequency in this regard.

But the good news is that, yes, many of them
are listening. And it is my opinion that what we
are seeing now in terms of the great Exodus
from "the land of Egypt" -- slavery to the law --
is right now only a trickle.
Patti
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Adventists are not the only ones bewitched. Anyone who follows after another gospel is likewise bewitched:

Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing?
5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.
8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."
9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."

We start out in faith, we live by faith. There is no greater or higher good that we can achieve than believing in Jesus Christ.

12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case.
16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.

We have all the promises of God to mankind right now, by faith, when we are in Christ.


17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

Have you ever really read that verse? To answer the question, which came first, the righteousness by faith or the law, the answer is that the righteousness that was accounted to Abraham came before the law was given! Not the other way around! There has always only been one way of salvation: believing in the promises of God.

18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.
20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.

In other words, if the law could have given life, then it would have been opposed to the Gospel. But since the law is useless in giving life, it does not oppose the Gospel. Only when law is used as any part of our salvation does it become opposed to the Gospel. Otherwise, it was merely a tool to show us our great need and to drive us to the foot of the cross for mercy.

22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.
24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,
27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

What a fabulous chapter! And to think it was there all those years I was trying to find and to produce something in myself that God would find worth saving. God's people have always and only been saved by believing God's promises and having His righteousness credited to them.
Maryann
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ohhhhhh.......Patti,

When will you read what is written in these post's? And not what you THINK is written?

That's my prayer.
Cindy
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Patti,
I've wanted to respond to you for a few days...the above post from Galations was so good. It really is a great passage.

Hang in there; you are a wonderful presenter of the simply wonderful gospel message of Christ's complete, final, and all-sufficient work on our behalf.

I wish I had your stamina and courage. I pray we will all have a unity here in regards to the supremacy of the message of the Cross!

I love what you say above, "We start out in faith, we live by faith. There is no greater or higher good that we can achieve than believing in Jesus Christ."

Grace always,
Cindy
Max
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Patti,

I'll second what Cindy is saying.

Max of the Cross
Max
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 11:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And thank you, Maryann, for seeing the truth of
what I and others have been saying for a
looong time!
Joni
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 3:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree that we must continue in Faith. I love Galations.
My heart is so sad. I have been going through a pretty rough time and then seeing the misunderstantings here and there makes me hurt more.

One thing that I really appreciate about being out of the SDA Church and into my Bible Studies that we have, is that when we disagree about a scripture, the tone stays in love. We all realize that there is no use getting upset, we try to understand each point of view, and respect each other. In SDA, if you disagree with the quarterly or question the stuff, you get pat answers and stubborn hearts. (I know not just SDA)

My recent problem has been about people at work who say things that are not true. I called one of them on it and she said to me "you have to admit you are different" It blew me away. Here is what I posted in my journal and I pray for us here.

"Today I am warn out. I am hurting. I want to stop and get off this world. A co-worker said I was incompetent. There is disrespect among some health care workers. "No one is as good as me" She is incompetent." There is a disrespect for the patients. Have you ever noticed the gestures and remarks said about patients, especially if the patient happens to be different.

I want respect and I want to respect others. I want people to tell me if they have a problem with me. But I see this is not reality.

MY mind wanders and I think about any time I may have carelessly said something about someone else. Did I bring this pain to another soul? I pray in my heart for forgiveness and I apologize if I have hurt anyone. This is not what I am here for. I am here to help,uplift and encourage others so that we may all grow and learn together.

One day at work I mention an experence I had and how I heard God speak to me during a time of trouble in my life. It was such a comfort to me. I am now thought of as the person who hears voices.

From now on, I will keep my mouth shut. I will not reveal my deepest desires and thoughts to anyone in this place for fear it might be taken as a joke or misconstrued. Such intimate treasures are not meant for just anyone.

Lord help me to love others no matter what they believe. I am trying to fit in a world in which I do not belong. I want to quit this place and run to my shelter and I need strength to stay. It is so much easiet to stay home and surround myself with those of like-mindedness, and yet I have such a desire to help those who walk through these doors.

I believe in {"Respect, social justice, compassion, care of the poor and underserved, and excellence."} That sounds so good. I desire to have these traits. I read the mission statement {"We serve together in Trinity health, in the spirit of the Gospel, to heal body, mind and spirit, to improve the health of our communities and to steward the resources entrusted to us."}

I wonder how many believe this statement?

OH LORD; Give me the strength to walk through these doors with my heart and head held high. You have made me. I am here for a reason. Nothing is by chance in my life. Bless me with the strength to go on in spite of my pain. Keep me clean. Help me to know that I am not perfect. I say and do stupid things at times. Neither are my co-workers perfect and so... I must let this misunderstanding go and I must go on. And if I ever harm on of your children, help me to make it right and ask for forgivenes and be truly sorry. May I always remember this experience and keep it close to my heart and feel the pain so I will not inflict such pain upon others.

And God, no matter what happens in my life, help me never to be ashamed of You and what You have done for me and for the whole world.


Patti, I hope this dosen't sound like my r/s with Jesus is by works. I know that I am saved by grace. This comes from a wounded heart....now getting stronger, only because of Him!!!!!!!!!!!

Max, continue the work.

Maryanne, I hear you.

Cindy, it's so true!! Jesus is our all in all.
Richardjr
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 5:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joni, Hang in there. If God can help a wretch like me , He can surely help you in your time of need. It sounds like your work environment is dysfunctional. Don't allow yourself to buy into their sickness. You are worth everything, for you are a child of God. I know what it is like to be misunderstood, but our worth is not based on what others perceive us to be, but on what the Heavenly Hound thinks. Oh no, I must stop preaching.
Max
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 6:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joni, two texts:

10 Blessed are those who are persecuted
because of righteousness, for theirs is the
kingdom of heaven.
11 "Blessed are you when people insult you,
persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil
against you because of me.
12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your
REWARD IN HEAVEN, for in the same way
they persecuted the prophets who were before
you. --Matthew 5:10-12 NIV

20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees
when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus
replied, "The kingdom of God does not come
with your careful observation,
21 nor will people say, `Here it is,' or `There it
is,' because the KINGDOM OF GOD is within
you." --Luke 17:20-21 NIV

You see, Jesus does not distinguish the
KINGDOM OF HEAVEN that will not arrive until
he comes in the clouds from the KINGDOM
OF GOD that arrived when Jesus came as a
human baby on Christmas day.

Meaning: When in Luke's gospel Jesus says,
"great is your reward in heaven," he doesn't
mean you have to wait until the Second
Coming to begin to enjoy your reward. YOU
CAN BEGIN TO ENJOY YOUR "REWARD IN
HEAVEN" RIGHT HERE AND NOW!

Max of the Cross
Patti
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 6:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joni and Richard,
We are all wretched. I have had some serious problems just this week. Paul admitted his own wretchedness. We all struggle with our sinful natures, and no one is any more successful in overcoming his sinful nature than anyone else. Man has created a hierarchy of sins, some being more "sinful" than others, but Jesus makes it clear that thoughts and motives, pride and selfishness, are just as thoroughly evil as outward acts of lust or rage.

Sometimes I think that those who have lead openly "sinful" lives (in the worldly sense) have an easier time understanding and accepting the mercy of God in Jesus Christ than we who have been raised in a works-oriented religion, that have pretty much led outwardly moral lives. Sometimes it is hard for those of us who have been trained to live outwardly moral lives to see that we are truly just as sinful as the drug peddler or the prostitute who lives on the streets. However, it is in our weakness (and our acknowledgement of it) that His strength is truly revealed. Jesus came to save sinners. The moment we cease to be one, we cease to need His grace. The less sinful we think we are becoming, the less we think we need His grace. We are always, only hopeless sinners in this life, saved by the absolute perfection and worthiness of the Lamb.

I refer you to two Bible stories that show us a person who has experienced the saving grace of Jesus:

1. The thief on the cross.

Luke 23:39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence?
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. "
43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Notice his testimony:
1. Acknowledgment of sinfulness: "We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve."
2. Upholding the merits of Jesus Christ: "This Man has done nothing wrong."
3. A positive statement of faith in Christ's power to save him: "Remember me when (not if, btw) You come into Your kingdom."

And now the publican:

Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Notice the similar elements with the thief on the cross:
1. Acknowledgment of sinfulness/unworthiness:
"would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven," "smote upon his breast," "me, a sinner."
2. Acknowledgment of God's ability to save even a sinner such as himself. "God be merciful."

Our message to a hungering and thirsting world is not, "Here. Look at what I have become since I began drinking of the Water of Life." Instead, it is to point people to the Water and the Bread of Life. To give them nourishment continually with the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Because as long as we are in this sinful flesh, our hungering and thirsting for inherent righteousness will never end. The righteous will live by faith. We keep trusting that God's mercy is sufficient for us even though we may not be able to discern any tangible evidence of it in our own lives. (If we can observe it, it is not of faith.)

The good news is that Jesus saves sinners. Completely. And that should be our message to a dying world. And we should preach it incessantly. I just don't see how there is any time for preaching our own character regeneration when the world is dying for a lack of the Word of God, our Savior, Jesus Christ.

I close with the words of Luther, quite a sinner himself:

13. If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner."
Cindy
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 12:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti...wonderful Scripture passages and thoughts in your above post; and great closing quote! Thanks!
Grace always,
Cindy
Maryann
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 10:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Richardjr,

Thank you for sharing your wonderful testimony. That really took courage!;-)

I have a friend that thinks "HIS" sin is un-forgivable. You know, all sin is ugly to God. It is the same ugly being a candy stealer as an alcoholic. Sure, the family and social implications are much different. Never forget that you are where you are and been where you've been for a purpose, a purpose that may not be fully evident till heaven.

Keep hanging on the promises and your running mate;-))

Oops:):):), that reminded me of a song:

Standing on the promises of Christ my King, Thro' eternal ages let His praises ring; Glory in the highest I will shout and sing, Standing on the promises of God.

Standing on the promises that can-not fail, When the howling storms of doubt and fear asail, By the living Word of God I shall prevail, Standing on the promises of God.

Standing on the promises of Christ the Lord, Bound to Him eternally by love's strong cord, Overcoming daily with the Spirit's sword, Standing on the promises of God.

Standing on the promises I can-not fall, List,ning ev'ry moment to the spirit's call, Resting in my Savior, as my all in all, Standing on the promises of God.

Hmmmmmmm, 'member that song? I'll bet you have sung that since you were a kid.

Sooo, good to have Y'all back....Maryann
Joni
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2000 - 4:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you. Sometimes I think why did I post that! Thank you for your encourgement.
Patti:
"Instead, it is to point people to the Water and the Bread of Life. To give them nourishment continually with the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Because as long as we are in this sinful flesh, our hungering and thirsting for inherent righteousness will never end. The righteous will live by faith. We keep trusting that God's mercy is sufficient for us even though we may not be able to discern any tangible evidence of it in our own lives. (If we can observe it, it is not of faith.)

The good news is that Jesus saves sinners. Completely. And that should be our message to a dying world. And we should preach it incessantly. I just don't see how there is any time for preaching our own character regeneration when the world is dying for a lack of the Word of God, our Savior, Jesus Christ."


First I do not understand why you say that we may not be able to discern any tangible evidence of God's mercy. God came to save us from our sins. While we are sinners. When this sunk through my head in 1992-93 I "felt" so forgiven and clean. I had gotton myself into such a mess. Previous to this mess I was a stable person in the SDA Church. I taught SS. etc...... When I "fell" I was so devastated. I left everything because I knew that I could no longer be a part of God, for I have sinned. In SDA, I could keep the "rules" and read my Bible and Pray and yada, yada, yada.
But now I could not. I became a hermit. I did not want to associate with anyone for fear that I would "hurt" someone else.
But than an old friend who is a Luthern, invited me to Bible Studys (Precepts)
I did go and learned about God's Grace. I learned that He came to save sinners of whom I was cheif. (Something that I never realized while in SDA was that I was a sinner. It was always the others, those who did not keep the Sabbath, and believe as I did).
I was very overwhelmed that God did love me, that He saved me from my sins. He forgave me. He washed me and cleansed me. What a clean feeling. What a load was lifted off my back(He gave me rest, for His burden was light) I was now free to go and spread the Good news. Look... you... Jesus can save you from your wicked ways. He did it for me. Like the woman at the well I ran and told everyone of my new found faith. I know that He saved me from past, present, and future sins. Was it because anything that I did? No it was because He prompted a friend to walk beside me and teach me about His Grace and Gospel News. It was because He prompted me to accept and believe in Him.
Patti, now I point others to the Water and Bread of life. I could be going along still and never have seen my true sinfulness and never have seen the truth in Him. But He touched me and changed me. I really see what you are saying. I cannot preach any thing about myself, that I am different, etc. Only the Cross of Christ. It is because of it that I can preach Him. You cannot give what you don't have. I have discerned His great mercy. I don't preach myself at all. I don't think the here others do either.

If Jesus saves sinners completly what does He save sinners from? I know He saved me from my sins. He has taken away the desire to walk by the flesh. The desire to be jealous, to gossip, to lust after another, to have outbursts of anger, to worship idols, to be in clicks(factions), to have disputes, to envy others, to cause dissensions etc. He gave me the desire to know Him and His Love,joy, peace, patience, kendness, goodness, faithfulness,gentleness, self-control etc.
Against these there is not law.

I am saved. I have eternal life because of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice. I know this because He says so. Is this the hungering and thirsting for the inherent righteousness???? There is a change in my life. I thirst, He feeds, I share. I do not attribute it to me. To God be the glory. Paul warns us not to become boastful. God knew we would.

Titus 2:11-15 says "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus; who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you."

He purifys us. He makes us zealous for good deeds. He He He does it all. In Him we live and walk and have our being. If there was no change in me what good would it be if I preach salvation to others, for we live in the world and in the world we have feelings and emotions, we see things and feel things and touch things. We look at others and see their deep peace even when things are going wrong and we say to ourselves I want to be like that when I grow up. We are the light of the world , You will know my diciples by the love they have for one another. It is a visual, touch, world. "By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible." We see things. The Holy Spirit is like the wind. We don't see it but we see the effect of it. What is the effect you are giving to the world all because of Christ Jesus???

Anyway thanks guys for being outwardly what God is doing inwardly. I am In Him and maturing.
Maryann
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2000 - 9:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Joni,

That was a wonderfully put together post! I'm so happy to see that you understand what has been said here;-))

Not even one post that I can think of has preached "self regeneration!" as any part of the gospel.

You said:

"I don't preach myself at all. I don't think the here others do either."

THANK YOU SOOOOOO MUCH FOR UNDERSTANDING THAT!

To repeat your text....."Titus 2:11-15 says "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus; who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you."

We are saved totally by grace! Nothing we can do can improve our salvation BECAUSE it is complete in Christ.

Yet in the great commision of Matthew 28:16-20, Jesus was very specific about what to do which was "GO AND MAKE DISCIPLES" "baptizing them" "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

You'll notice He didn't tell them how to go...HE JUST SAID GO!

You'll notice that He was very specific in what to do after they went. Included in the spreading of the good news, the gospel, they were commanded to teach the new converts how to live Christian lives.

The Bible is just so simple;-)) That is why a child can understand it.

GO....MAKE DISCIPLES....BAPTIZE....TEACH WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT IN THE LAST 3 YEARS.

What do you suppose they were taught in the last 3 years? Can you picture living in person, in real life, with Juesus and NOT learning to live Christian lifestyle.

Our Christian lifestyle may be the first glimpse of Christianity that some people see!

Our Christian lifestyle NEVER points to US!!! It always point to Christ and HIS awesome power to not only save a wretch, but to also change that wretch into a shinning lamp to HIM!

To even suggest that we would not notice a change in our lives or we may not be able to discern any tangible evidence of it in our own lives is the most cruel thing I have ever heard! Would God command us to live a Christian life and then expect it to be invisible. That would be like denying there was food on the table after it was prepared and placed on the table!

Christian's, as Christ representitive's, have an awesome and fearful responsibilty to represent HIM in a way to uplift HIM and HIM only in BOTH WORD and ACTION.

Again, we are to be a light to the world BECAUSE we are saved not to be saved. Being a LIGHT includes pointing to Christ BOTH with the action of our lips/pen proclaiming HIM and the actions of a Christian life proclaiming HIM!

I truly believe that the SDA mindset of salvation by grace and works to maintain that salvation has poisoned our very beings so much that once released from that bondage we tend to tip the scale the other way and deny the Christian life.

Thank you again for your wonderful perspective in this discussion. I hope more people can join in with their understanding. You know, everyone is an individual and have their own learning patterns. What "turns the light" on in one persons brain may not "turn the light on" in anothers brain!

Upward and onward.......Maryann
Max
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2000 - 10:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann,

When you said,

^^I truly believe that the SDA mindset of
salvation by grace and works to maintain that
salvation has poisoned our very beings so
much that once released from that bondage
we tend to tip the scale the other way and deny
the Christian life.^^

The Lord caused you to hit a grand slam
home run. So many formers get out of the SDA
ditch on the right side of the "straight and
narrow" only to fall into the antinomian ditch on
the left side.

It seems to be something God allows them to
do before he wakes them up and sets them in
the center:

1. There is nothing we can do to enhance our
salvation (sinless perfection in Christ).

2. There is nothing to boast of our own
righteousness.

3. But there is plenty we can do to obey
Christ's commandments to us as we journey
along in our pilgrimage here.

Thanks for the light that you have consistently
been shining,

Max of the Cross
Patti
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2000 - 12:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, Cindy!
Looking forward to hearing more from you also. Your posts always uphold the perfection and all-sufficiency of Jesus Christ, and they are a blessing to me.

Grace and peace,
Patti
Max
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 3:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chyna, Paul, Maryann, cindy, Joni, Richard,
Patti, Joni, ... , and any I may have missed,
God bless you all! It's been sheer delight
trading Scriptures with you!

Max of the Cross
Max
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 3:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ps. Oops, sorry for not capping your name,
Cindy.

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration